New Assault Rifles for Indian Army

[Sanjeev Biswas]

Looks like the Indian Army rejected the OFB 7.62mm rifle...They are surely going for export..

 

[Sanjeev Biswas]

is the link to the story in Livefist.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Some people will surely project things that way ..

 

[Sanjeev Biswas]

@Kunal Biswas you mean its not correct? is there still a fair chance they will accept this rifle??

 

[zala09]

Excalibur rifle Rejected by Army...

Reason: More Shouting and More Muzzle Flash..

 

[Kunal Biswas]

I would wait for more conformation from the Army rather than lobby promoted articles ..

Their will be claims and counter claims in time to come, debating on these article is waste of time ..

 

[Chinmoy]

Some interesting quotes from one of the reports.

Today, representatives of the Indian Army, Indian Air Force, and Indian Navy will be holding a meeting with top-level officials from the Defence Ministry to discuss the procurement of assault rifles for the Armed Forces. The main agenda of this meeting will be finalising the specifications of the assault rifles.

In another report about the same 7.62 NATO rifle, it quoted OFB official about 1 stoppage after 2000 rnds. But here they are quoting unnamed source from Army.

But, Army sources reveal they had many faults including, "excessive recoil," "excessive flash & sound signature," and were in need of a "complete redesigning of the magazine." The guns had an "excessive number of faults and stoppages to the extent of more than twenty times the maximum permissible standards."

Its same in every other news article. No names and authority has been divulged till now. Interestingly they have yet to finalize the specs. So as of now, everything is mixed up with no surety of the project and it developments.

http://www.mensxp.com/special-featu...second-time-make-in-india-don-t-think-so.html

 

[Heavenshaker]

I was referring to the recent army tender where none of the foreign rifles could make the cut.
I see the Americans using American rifles, the Chinese using Chinese rifles, Russian, British and French all using indegeneous rifles - all of those rifles had problems which got gradually rectified. So, anybody saying indegeneous rifles are not important clearly have vested interests. But they keep saying things like - Indian soldiers deserve the best, matter of life and death, etc.

Sir no army accepts any rifle with shortcomings with the hope that maybe later they'll overcome them. Yes rifles like the M16 had shortcomings in its initial years but these shortcomings were unknown and unpredictable at the time of the induction and trials. They had considered the rifle perfect (evident from the instruction given to soldiers initially that you never need to clean the rifle). It was only once they had inducted it that these problems started to arise and then they had to make improvements.
Secondly, the OFB and DRDO have not shown at all that they are capable of making improvements in that sense. Look at the newer versions of insas as well. Even after so many years of input and feedback there are basic things that are not being done. It is a shame if they say they have been doing R&D. Even a small backyard private company in USA can do better work, and thy regularly do.
According to me it is a perfectly logical decision by army personnel to reject the rifle if it is not Upto standards. And what you say are excuses are indeed the major concern for army personnel at that post - matter of life and death and yes indian soldiers do deserve better.
For a person conducting trials whether in the Indian army or us army, his job is simple - if the standards are not met the rifle is rejected.
The question is why the OFB and DRDO are not able to make even minor changes even after so many years? That will be evident when you see how they work. I suggest you take a look at the standards of work at an ordinance factory or DRDO. It is a typical sarkaari uninterested environment.

 

[Kay]

Sir no army accepts any rifle with shortcomings with the hope that maybe later they'll overcome them. Yes rifles like the M16 had shortcomings in its initial years but these shortcomings were unknown and unpredictable at the time of the induction and trials. They had considered the rifle perfect (evident from the instruction given to soldiers initially that you never need to clean the rifle). It was only once they had inducted it that these problems started to arise and then they had to make improvements.
Secondly, the OFB and DRDO have not shown at all that they are capable of making improvements in that sense. Look at the newer versions of insas as well. Even after so many years of input and feedback there are basic things that are not being done. It is a shame if they say they have been doing R&D. Even a small backyard private company in USA can do better work, and thy regularly do.
According to me it is a perfectly logical decision by army personnel to reject the rifle if it is not Upto standards. And what you say are excuses are indeed the major concern for army personnel at that post - matter of life and death and yes indian soldiers do deserve better.
For a person conducting trials whether in the Indian army or us army, his job is simple - if the standards are not met the rifle is rejected.
The question is why the OFB and DRDO are not able to make even minor changes even after so many years? That will be evident when you see how they work. I suggest you take a look at the standards of work at an ordinance factory or DRDO. It is a typical sarkaari uninterested environment.

Insas has improved a lot since inception.
The small backyard company may present a rifle with better finish, but many of the features they offer are simply fancy features adding cost and complexity.
A rifle has to be first and foremost reliable. Army cannot accept anything that will not work. But the rest of the shortcomings are perfectly acceptable. Indian army has the habit of having different standards when it comes to indegeneous vs foreign weapon systems and often shifts goalposts to allow induction of foreign weapons, while being extremely strict for Indian weapons - case in point being the T90 and Arjun.

 

[Heavenshaker]

Of course after pushing so much there will be some improvements. But compare the minor improvements made to the time taken. One would think that after so many years of experience they will be able to rectify the problems in at least the later designs. take for example the handguard cover. It is so flimsy, yet that has persisted in later designs. Another thing is, something as simple as labelling. Still labeling is done I by scratching on the surface of the reciever. The gun I may fire but when you see such things you lose hope that the manufacturer is capable of making changes, adapting in the case of a high pressure situation like a war. It take a rocket scientist to rectify such a minor problem. The truth is that nobody really at OFB and DRDO has shown any promising improvement.
And you say 'But the rest of the shortcomings are acceptable'
Sorry lost you at that. What shortcomings in a rifle are perfectly acceptable? Also whether or not there is a larger game at play is open to interpretation. But what is crystal clear is that the rifle is not at all acceptable neither is the organisation capable to make changes.

 

[Heavenshaker]

And no sane person would accept a faulty product with the deluded fantasy that in the future an organisation that you know to be lethargic will fix it.

 

[Kay]

@ mods...Please delete my multiple duplicate posts

 

[Heavenshaker]

The reason I compared to the small backyard company is - if a small company is able to rapidly make changes to it's next product according to demand, why is an organisation like DRDO , ofb not able to make even minor changes that anyone that makes firearms should be able to make, even after so many years?
Instead of printing fingers at army who are just reacting to this message, should we not question the ones actually responsible? Tell me do you actually get the feel that ofb is a firearms , small arms manufacturer? Also if you have ever spoken to anyone at OFB you will see that they don't know their job. The people on this forum itself would be more informed about firearms than them.

 

[Kay]

The fact that OFB tried to bring out a new weapon within 6 months, is itself an indication that there are some sort of change of management style in the background.

i doubt if it has happened before.

In addition to this now DRDO and OFB are undertaking JV with private firms..like ATAGS...army has to understand that indegeneous weapons are to its benefit...and when that happens solutions can be found

 

[sbm]

Would a IWI/Punj Lloyd be less of a "Make in India" product? Is the K-9 Vajra more of a "Make in India" product than the T-72 or T-90? I'm all for Indian designs but have to ask, does it have to be in every single aspect when OFB is not up to the task in its present form? Should a Govt entity have a monopoly on rifle manufacture?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Just to make things more clear, people who operate it have no problems if this rifle is manufactured by Private co, which can assure better quality ..

Its the design which works and that what matters, The manufacturing quality was the issue which actually got this nice rifle a lot of bad name, But since then quality has improved and this cannot be denied ..

Appreciate the feedback from you sir!

Would a IWI/Punj Lloyd be less of a "Make in India" product? Is the K-9 Vajra more of a "Make in India" product than the T-72 or T-90? I'm all for Indian designs but have to ask, does it have to be in every single aspect when OFB is not up to the task in its present form? Should a Govt entity have a monopoly on rifle manufacture?

 

[hammer head]

OFB is the white elephant of our country which after 20 yrs of giving this country INSAS today has again fooled us all by presenting a rechambered INSAS. I will post the video of the weapons trial and you will see how much recoil it is throwing on its user. Mind you the Army heavily uses Aks in jnk.

OFB should be dissolved and heads should roll for sheer incompetence. @Heavenshaker could have not summed it up better in his posts.

I see that the moment a desi product isvrejected all lot of us have a tendency to jump the gun snd bleed out CORRUPTION HAIN JI not realising the futuristic requirements. Give 6 months to a any desi company they will provide you a product 100 times better then the crap OFB given. 20 years of such extensive usage of a particular family of AR and data associated with you should have motivated you to make the best.

 

[Shaitan]

OFB is the white elephant of our country which after 20 yrs of giving this country INSAS today has again fooled us all by presenting a rechambered INSAS. I will post the video of the weapons trial and you will see how much recoil it is throwing on its user. Mind you the Army heavily uses Aks in jnk.

OFB should be dissolved and heads should roll for sheer incompetence. @Heavenshaker could have not summed it up better in his posts.

I see that the moment a desi product isvrejected all lot of us have a tendency to jump the gun snd bleed out CORRUPTION HAIN JI not realising the futuristic requirements. Give 6 months to a any desi company they will provide you a product 100 times better then the crap OFB given. 20 years of such extensive usage of a particular family of AR and data associated with you should have motivated you to make the best.

Do share the video, thanks.


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[Shaitan]

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[Ancient Indian]

• What is an elephant gun?

Your second one,

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