New Assault Rifles for Indian Army

[Yatharth Singh]

http://defenceforumindia.com/indian-army/446-f-insas-programme-13.html#post313908

Now prove this one wrong.

 

[ALBY]

http://defenceforumindia.com/indian-army/446-f-insas-programme-13.html#post313908

Now prove this one wrong.

only time will prove the validity of whether it is right or wrong.Let it be rolled out of ishapore rifle factory and used by our forces in real environment.

 

[sesha_maruthi27]

So, what are all the assault rifles which are in the race for becoming a part of the INDIAN ARMED FORCES?

 

[Yatharth Singh]

Now a new tender in India such big as this one will obviously take 1 year or more to enact. And same timeline is set for F-INSAS weapon system so why to waste money and time when we are getting something indigenous and better 'hopefully'.

 

[ALBY]

Now a new tender in India such big as this one will obviously take 1 year or more to enact. And same timeline is set for F-INSAS weapon system so why to waste money and time when we are getting something indigenous and better 'hopefully'.

Finsas is only nearing the completion and it is not tested.The new rifle is to meet the current need and some of the very old insas will be replaced.the RFI is for only 66000 rifle not for the entire 460 infantry batallions.

 

[ALBY]

So, what are all the assault rifles which are in the race for becoming a part of the INDIAN ARMED FORCES?

they had appraoached nearly 40 companies means all the existing assault rifles are in the race to get inducted into our arsenal

 

[ace009]

I would have given him a satchel full of grenades.:-D

I would have made him in charge of procurements at MoD -

3 times more is an extremely over stretched amount even if it is an bullpup.i dont know how a bull pup will the ammo count.Plus bullpups in today are extemely complex to maintain and the rifles we are importing are for regulars where conventional rifles are the main target.The advantages offered by bullpups are mostly in theory and in practical they are not much as hyped in media.They need to be evolved.

So, you mean to say that Bullpups being used by most developed nations armed personnel are using an inferior rifle? I somehow find that difficult to believe.
"Expensive" should not be that much of our concern - we spend billions of dollars on expensive aircraft and ships, which may never see action in their lifetime because it makes our leaders look cool. The grunts on the ground who will definitely see action in one way or another, are shafted with inferior products, because a rifle is a rifle right? It's not as glamorous as a 5th gen fighter ...

 

[lemontree]

UTK 3 rounds are fitted for only conventional wars where you can see and target the foe from a greater distance.But in case f a CQB or jungle war fare you will surely need full auto to suppress enemy(i didn't mean pumping all the 30 rounds in a single burst but 3 to 5 rounds),as far as i know all the foreign armies use full auto and for an army like ours which emphasizes on arksmanship handling full auto wont be a problem.Now days most of the rifles comes with a combo of full auto,3 round and single shot.Even the insas meant for the export was having an full auto option in addition to 3 round .

BTW, in most encounters we fired our Aks on single shot mode. Even the SF units use single shot. This is what we do in actual ops...so the argument about 3 rd burst vs full auto is a none issue with the users.

 

[Patriot]

Special Forces to be Equipped with Machine Guns

After floating a tender for rifles to arm its infantry troops, the Indian Army is planning to issue a tender worth around USD 30 million dollar global request for proposal for equipping its Special Forces with General Purpose Machine Guns (GPMGs).

We are desirous of procuring GPMG for the 11 Parachute (Special Forces) Battalions of Indian Army and we are going to issue a tender worth USD 28 million soon, Army sources said to defencenow.com.

The Indian Army has 11 Special Forces battalions under the Parachute regiment and has deployed them in conflict zones in the Northeast and Jammu and Kashmir.

Sources said the tender will be issued to companies from Israel, Belgium, Switzerland but more companies can be invited for the bidding process depending on the response to the Request for Information issued recently.

It should be ideally suited for as a Squad Automatic Weapon for the Special Forces and should be able to be used as a multipurpose weapon intended to fill the role of Light Machine Gun and a Medium Machine Gun, they said.

The Army wants that the global rifle should be able to fire ammunition produced in Indian Ordnance factories and be able to sustain the rigours of airborne operations.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

insas weights more than any other famous rifle in its league .it weights more than 4 kg w/o magazine.no other reliable 5.56 rifle weights this much.

Its not a 4KG rifle without mag, Info got to be wrong..

Besides 4kg is never the issue, But the length..

So how is this 'interchangeable calibre' going to work out? Won't we have to take out the barrel and the receiver and install a new one altogether? Alternatively, we will have to use a multi-barelled gun.

FINSAS, funda..

So, what are all the assault rifles which are in the race for becoming a part of the INDIAN ARMED FORCES?

Highest chance: SIG551 of M43 rounds.. ( Army SF use SIG 5.56mm so does garuda and Marcos )

Trichary Assault rifle deign to use M43 also very similar to AKM and can shoot till 400m with m43 which is a big archivement..

MASADA M43,

Olympic Arms 7.62x39mm

BTW, in most encounters we fired our Aks on single shot mode. Even the SF units use single shot. This is what we do in actual ops...so the argument about 3 rd burst vs full auto is a none issue with the users.

Their were incident in IPFK ops when men fired full auto with fal, Since Army preferred 3 round burst..

 

[nimo_cn]

what about the INSAS?? it has been in service for 14 years and it will take some years until the first units will replace the INSAS with the winner of this tender, so at least 17-perhaps 20 years of service

You can carry on listing the reasons why INSAS is such a great rifle, but you can't the deny the fact that Indian army is abandoning INSAS, and more sadly you can't stop that from happening even though you managed to convince yourself that it is a decent rifle.

The even more disturbing part should be that Indian army is turning to foreign vendors instead of Indian vendors for their future rifle, wlhich tells us another tragical story that India can't manufacture their own rifles.

It is much better than what your Japanese or Russian masters could. Ironic that you talk about masters when your own air force requirement requires you to know Russian apart from Mandarin.

I doubted Russians and Japanesse had ruled China for over 200 year like British had ruled India. The largest legacy you inherited from the British should be the language of English, and that makes you people proud. Soon India will have the largest english speaking population, I have heard that several times on this forum.


Chinese military fans have been discussing reasons behind this decision for days, and they don't have a clue why India is replacing INSAS and going for some foreign stuff.

Would some professionals be kind to enlighten me on this, because I am just bewildered as many Chinese fans? Indian army wants to induct something better which is totally understandable, but the reasons they offered are not plausible at all.

INSAS may possess some deficiencies as it is decribed in the artilces, but those deficiencies seem mendable, hence the rifle has the potential to be improved. In that case, why discard an indigenous rifle and plan to procure some foreign rifle?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

You can carry on listing the reasons why INSAS is such a great rifle, but you can't the deny the fact that Indian army is abandoning INSAS, and more sadly you can't stop that from happening even though you managed to convince yourself that it is a decent rifle.

The even more disturbing part should be that Indian army is turning to foreign vendors instead of Indian vendors for their future rifle, wlhich tells us another tragical story that India can't manufacture their own rifles.

INSAS may possess some deficiencies as it is decribed in the artilces, but those deficiencies seem mendable, hence the rifle has the potential to be improved. In that case, why discard an indigenous rifle and plan to procure some foreign rifle?

I haven't heard such thing till date, Insas is good rifle, works well on field..

Army is looking at foreign rifles for Special Forces, the article targeted Insas unnecessarily, As its the habit of Indian media....


This news is not new but posted long back, The new Rifle of M43 will remove VZ-58 and AKM from Para forces completely..

 

[Jaabaaz]

Sir, I agree with you. The INSAS is a good rifle and it is going through its growth pains. The M-16 also took about 22 odd years to rectify it defects. As you said we need to ensure proper QC, bring in a consultant if we dont have the know how.

- If the 5.56 mm NATO round is found to be inadequate for COIN, then re-barrel the rifles for 7.62 x 39mm (AK-47 ammo), they are small light and have the same ergonomic advantages as the 5.56 mm round.
- provide reflex sights to improve accuracy issues.
- audit the production process to identify manufacture process flaws. etc.
- re-access the costing of the weapon.

The OFB should have modified the SLR for 5.56 mm or 7.62 x 39mm. Also they should have taken a leaf out of H&K for developing the carbine. The MP5 is a minature version of the G3 rifle. We could have done the samething and saved tons of money and heartburn.

It appears that OFB chaps make their careers out of inefficiency.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJhPMIVgF6c

Our army needs weapons like these for use in different combat scenarios.The bushmaster can fire both 5.56mm and 7.62mm rounds.When we dont strictly buy home made cars, why compromise on rifles for armed forces.

 

[W.G.Ewald]

http://magpul.com/pdfs/masada_technot­e.pdf

 

[trackwhack]

I doubted Russians and Japanesse had ruled China for over 200 year like British had ruled India. The largest legacy you inherited from the British should be the language of English, and that makes you people proud. Soon India will have the largest english speaking population, I have heard that several times on this forum.

I am no rifle expert and hence wont comment on your assessment of the INSAS. I will however very put you to shame now on the cultural bit. Why talk about Russians or Japanese or the British. Let us chat about our two nations only. How China has influenced India and how India has literally (re)defined the Chinese way of life.

The largest organized religion in the China today is not Taoism or Confucianism. It is Buddhism. Buddhists still chant Sanskrit mantras during prayer - not Mandarin or Cantonese chants, Sanskrit chants. When was the last time you heard of anyone in India being influenced by the Chinese way of life or chanting our prayers in Mandarin or Cantonese?
The Chinese aristocracy has tried several times over the last 2500 years to wipe out Buddhism and Sanskrit, but each time it has been resurgent with even more people turning towards it. Even today the CCP spends a good lot of money trying to kill Buddhism in China. If Chinese press reports are to be believed, there is a surge of youngsters turning to Buddhism.

India may be a country with the largest English speaking population in the world, but we havent lost our spiritual and cultural Richness. In fact it is so rich, that China has also adopted it. For 20 centuries now, most of China has been leading an Indian spiritual dream and .... chanting Sanskrit mantras.
This is not some religion post, its just a counter argument to your narrow minded thoughts on Indians speaking english and 200 years of British rule.

You can try as much as you want but there is no comeback to this fact, son.

Apologies to the other for going OT, but this arrogant chini boy needed a refresher course in history and cultural affluence.

 

[pmaitra]

Future Weapons: Magpul Masada (Bushmaster ACR / Remington ACR) - YouTubeOur army needs weapons like these for use in different combat scenarios.The bushmaster can fire both 5.56mm and 7.62mm rounds.When we dont strictly buy home made cars, why compromise on rifles for armed forces.

What is this obsession with imported stuff? Who said we don't use home made cars? We definitely do. Did you not see the comment of a person who is in the military and who has used the INSAS? Read below:

I haven't heard such thing till date, Insas is good rifle, works well on field..

Army is looking at foreign rifles for Special Forces, the article targeted Insas unnecessarily, As its the habit of Indian media....


This news is not new but posted long back, The new Rifle of M43 will remove VZ-58 and AKM from Para forces completely..

 

[Bhadra]

You can carry on listing the reasons why INSAS is such a great rifle, but you can't the deny the fact that Indian army is abandoning INSAS, and more sadly you can't stop that from happening even though you managed to convince yourself that it is a decent rifle.

The even more disturbing part should be that Indian army is turning to foreign vendors instead of Indian vendors for their future rifle, wlhich tells us another tragical story that India can't manufacture their own rifles.



I doubted Russians and Japanesse had ruled China for over 200 year like British had ruled India. The largest legacy you inherited from the British should be the language of English, and that makes you people proud. Soon India will have the largest english speaking population, I have heard that several times on this forum.


Chinese military fans have been discussing reasons behind this decision for days, and they don't have a clue why India is replacing INSAS and going for some foreign stuff.

Would some professionals be kind to enlighten me on this, because I am just bewildered as many Chinese fans? Indian army wants to induct something better which is totally understandable, but the reasons they offered are not plausible at all.

INSAS may possess some deficiencies as it is decribed in the artilces, but those deficiencies seem mendable, hence the rifle has the potential to be improved. In that case, why discard an indigenous rifle and plan to procure some foreign rifle?

Nimo,

F-INSAS means Futuristic Infantry Soldier As a System. INSAS, meaning Infantry Small Arms system has not come up so far as a family of small Arms sytem but only as a rifle. Indian Army perhaps is looking for a calibre which can be adopted from pistol to GPMG and a rifle that can be intercahngable it its role and application.

While accepting 5.56 as the basic calibre, INSAS should be a complete sytem and not only a rifle which include multiple sights, helmet wiser, communication and situational awareness sytem and clothing including good boots. The essentail idea is to decrease the weight of a soldier by about five kgs.

5.56 INSAS as a rifle is not fitting into overall system. There are hitches. That is why Indian Army wishes to explore new frontiers. That does not mean that production and development on INSAS will stop. Besies 1400000 Indian Army soldiers there are other 1400000 who would need moder rifles and for them INSAS is good.

The objective of Indian soldiers and F_INSAS is one bullet one PLA soldier on Tibet border or SCS. One bullet of pistol, Carbine, Rifle or LMG, any of these but one PLA man down.

 

[ALBY]

I haven't heard such thing till date, Insas is good rifle, works well on field..

Army is looking at foreign rifles for Special Forces, the article targeted Insas unnecessarily, As its the habit of Indian media....


This news is not new but posted long back, The new Rifle of M43 will remove VZ-58 and AKM from Para forces completely..

kunal whats the problem with AKMs and VZ58s .Its true that they are old but till now only kalashnikovs can replace kalashnikovs {referring to your choice of SIG553}.why not AK103S or Bulgarian polymer AK clones?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

kunal whats the problem with AKMs and VZ58s .Its true that they are old but till now only kalashnikovs can replace kalashnikovs {referring to your choice of SIG553}.why not AK103S or Bulgarian polymer AK clones?

"requires the 3.66 kg AR's to convert to 7.62x39 mm and be fitted with Picatiny Rail-mounted reflex sights.

The ARs would also need to be equipped with under-barrel grenade launchers and be able to fire locally-produced ammunition."


If AK-103 can be added so does AKM of Bulgarian and Polish types so does Galil ACE31..

 

[hitesh]

Nimo,

F-INSAS means Futuristic Infantry Soldier As a System. INSAS, meaning Infantry Small Arms system has not come up so far as a family of small Arms sytem but only as a rifle. Indian Army perhaps is looking for a calibre which can be adopted from pistol to GPMG and a rifle that can be intercahngable it its role and application.

.

small Correction : INSAS stands for (INDIAN SMALL ARMS SYSTEM) not( Infantry small arms system)