New Assault Rifles for Indian Army

[sydsnyper]

The INSAS has come a very long way, it is maturing at a faster pace than M16 with the American military's trillion dollar budget did.

Take for example the G36, H&K life saver, the Bundsweher's assault rifle of choice, the base for most of the German army's specialist services, the perferred weapon in the hands of models of special forces posters and not to mention, a prolific appearance in hollywood movies. With all this many keyboard defence experts like, your's truly and others, really thought that the west was coming up with weapons faster than we can find problems in our's. But the truth came out this year when the German armed forces said that the G36 platform was crap. It had so many issues and failures that they armed forces may request a new weapon system.

Likewise many weapon systems have had teething problems that ran for decades. Take the SA80, it was designed in the 70s' and 80s', 1985 it started production and they were still finding flaws with it even at the height of the Afghan campaigns of the WoT.

It may not an impossibility to design and manufacture a weapon system so good and reliable that it can last forever without modifications, but such specialist systems cannot be mass produced, or have an AK like easy maintenance, or may not mark up to several thousands of factors that go into the design of an infantry rifle.

For the idiot who said the illegal arms manufacturers make better arms than OFB... how about a trip at the border with one such weapon of your choice.... and lets see if it can even stand the weather for a couple of days or give you basic reliability to fire back on every trigger squeeze.

that is what also i m talked about.....
we have good small arms but.. not for alll army...
50-60-70 % useing crap very crap arms.....

Fact is, illegal gunsmiths in Munger, Kanpur make better and more reliable small arms than OFBs. Ask any policeman.

 

[su35]

The thing is, we all are looking at things in wrong way. Its not the rifle which is having problem with think tanks. Its the round basically. To ramp up your memory, INSAS was conceived in late 80s and early 90 to replace our 7.62 SLR with lighter 5.56 version. If you look at the initial design of INSAS it was heavily influenced by L1A1. You could simply say that it was miniatured version of L1A1. It was mass produced and introduced during the Kargil era and as any other platform, it did faced a lot of problem in its initiation.
The well known media and foreign arms lobby did grabbed this very situation from day one and began bitching it for foreign import. But have a look at the famous M16 used by US and other armed forces. When M16A1 was introduced in Vietnam era, the soldiers just loathed it saying it to be a plastic toy. Then it took almost 20 years for new improved M16A2 to get introduced.
If the lobbies and US armed forced would have done the same what is being done with INSAS, A2 would have never came out of production line. Now as for INSAS, look at the improved version of 1B2, its not as unreliable as 1B1 of Kargil era and which was famously snubbed by Nepalese Armed forces for getting too hot in auto firing mode.
The problem with our armed forces is of some people with vested interest in some of the most important executive positions and their nexus with foreign lobbies and journalists. Instead of speaking of the rounds, they do start presenting the platform in poor light. Its the round which stops and kill, not the rifle. And it was IA who insisted on 5.56 instead of 7.62. 5.56 was not forced down their throat.
As for quality of INSAS is concerned, have it been analyzed with contemporary platforms? If the foreign maals are so top of the line, why the first RFI got scrapped in the first place, that too in Congress era? If you don't remember clearly, none of the participants could cleared all the evaluation tests and Excalibur came on top of others.
You see, the real problem lies with our think tanks and their approach to problems. It is always a knee jerk reaction form our side. Latest example is this RFI immediately after URI attack. Its as if it happened because of INSAS. Didn't we have 7.62 firing AK's there? Why it could not make a difference? You simply can't blame a rifle for a fiasco.
By stating all these, I am not showing any blind interest in indigenous product of showing blind nationalism. I do only want to point out our sick mentality and vested interest which surface each and every time.

I don't have to dig out corpses. @Kunal Biswas has been fighting for Insas now for 3-4 years. Read up all those posts and counter arguments. Besides, if Insas is that good, why our govt has ditched it now in favor of a foreign assault rifle?

Problems is not with INSAS but with us and our Army top brass. Indian always want quick solution to every problem. They want "best" weapon and also with low price.

After that We and our army have always tried to copied every western coustom. We always want to be like america and singapore not to create our won identity.

Amry top brass changed calibre when Nato(USA) decided to change caibre. When they opted back to orginal 7.1 our top brass are now crying to change it. When they decided to go for multi calibre we started our own MICWS when there failed we also leaved the project. That why we were ruled for 300 year by British

 

[Hardi]

The INSAS has come a very long way, it is maturing at a faster pace than M16 with the American military's trillion dollar budget did.

Take for example the G36, H&K life saver, the Bundsweher's assault rifle of choice, the base for most of the German army's specialist services, the perferred weapon in the hands of models of special forces posters and not to mention, a prolific appearance in hollywood movies. With all this many keyboard defence experts like, your's truly and others, really thought that the west was coming up with weapons faster than we can find problems in our's. But the truth came out this year when the German armed forces said that the G36 platform was crap. It had so many issues and failures that they armed forces may request a new weapon system.

Likewise many weapon systems have had teething problems that ran for decades. Take the SA80, it was designed in the 70s' and 80s', 1985 it started production and they were still finding flaws with it even at the height of the Afghan campaigns of the WoT.

It may not an impossibility to design and manufacture a weapon system so good and reliable that it can last forever without modifications, but such specialist systems cannot be mass produced, or have an AK like easy maintenance, or may not mark up to several thousands of factors that go into the design of an infantry rifle.

For the idiot who said the illegal arms manufacturers make better arms than OFB... how about a trip at the border with one such weapon of your choice.... and lets see if it can even stand the weather for a couple of days or give you basic reliability to fire back on every trigger squeeze.

Ok
Agreed your right..
Hope Indian also find The Final And Effective results Under INSAS...

German Aslo faced Same Problem that we facing..
They Quickly Made That rifle.. Which is Best Then M-4, m-16,aks, and other.. Competitor..

Same.. this way British also Faced this too..
SA80 Rifle
The Iconic Rifle For Royal British Army
Produced in 85' .. used in Falkland war..and other.
But in 1990 British Army.. have to Modifications due to.. many Wrack problem using Rifle..

Here is Same situation..with insas.. Expert still stick on Favor because This is INDIAN.. (just because we love india)
British also like.. their.. produced weapons..but their force can't continues that weapons.. due to malfunction and jamming problem..
.. so British takes decision.. best for everyone..

And that is.. They redesign.. weapon. And given Contract to German H&K.. Manufacture..

And result are awesome.. in time need time..

See this article.....

 

[Hardi]

The SA-80. Shame of the British Army.
Designed by the Incompetent; Issued by the Uncaring;
Carried by the Unfortunate.
Unofficial T-Shirt worn by British Soldiers
The SA-80 or L85 assault rifle was adopted for British
army service in 1985, but in fact the design is much older
than this. The 5.56mm SA80 was originally the 4.85mm IW
which was first produced in 1973 as a prototype weapon for
the NATO calibre trials. Adoption of the 5.56mm SS109
round saw the IW become the SA-80.
When it was due for adoption many British Gun writers
voiced concerns about the design, but these seem to have
been politely ignored.
It was during the Gulf War in 1991 that the mainstream
press became aware of the malfunctions, jamming and
reliability problems that the SA80 was prone to, including,
apparently, a tendency to fire if dropped or struck on the
muzzle.
In 1997 the SA80 was dropped from NATO's list of
approved weapons because it was having difficulty firing
NATO approved ammunition reliably.
Eventually the MOD admitted that something might be
wrong. It is reported that the weapon has undergone 83
modifications over 18 years , but despite this in 2000 a
contract of £80 million was paid to Hecker and Koch to put
the army's SA80s right. Apparently the reworked L85A2
weapons are “ten times more reliable than the L85A1”
http://www.britainincanada.org/Defence/newsa80.htm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/
newsid_657000/657127.stm
Questions in Parliament.
ARmy Rumour SErvice (ARRSEpedia) on the SA-80
To put this in perspective for a moment. The IW was
built ten years after the first issue of the M16/AR15 but was
not issued for another twelve years. One would think this
would be enough time to test a weapon and correct any
faults?
The M16 was not without its birth problems, and still
many consider some of its characteristics less than perfect
but by 1985 it had been in service 22 years, including with
certain units of the British army. During this time most of its
faults had been identified and had been eliminated or ways
to compensate for them perfected.
Even if the H&K remake has resulted in a weapon that
will never jam, malfunction or misfire the truth is that the
design is still flawed.
The SA80 is a bullpup design so the ejector port is
beside the firer's cheek. This means the weapon can only be
fired from the right shoulder. Most other bullpups allow
certain parts to the switched around to accommodate left
handed shooters, but the SA80 is strictly right shoulder
only.
The flaw for this is best illustrated by the following two
pictures.
The first shows an American Soldier firing around a
right hand corner and firing his weapon from his left
shoulder. Obviously he could not do this if he had a weapon
that he had to disassemble and re-assemble before he could
swap shoulders.
The second image shows a Para with a SA-80. The
cover in this case is a tree, but it could just as easily be
wall. Perhaps the other side of the tree can't be fired from
because of thick undergrowth or enemy fire. He has to fire
from his right shoulder, so the only way to fire from the right
side of cover involves exposing most of his body to enemy
fire.
Such situations can occur in many types of terrain, but
are obviously very common in MOUT. If you had to lean out
a window to fire down the right side of a street you'd not
only be a great target, you'd probably be leaning so far out
there was a danger of falling out the window.
Another interesting point is made by combat veteran Ralph
Zumbro
“One of the oddball things we discovered in RVN was that
if you add a few left-handers to your point squad, it has a
better chance of surviving an ambush because they habitually
carry their weapons pointed to the right. Also a non smoking
point man can SMELL fish-eaters....And somone who is color
blind compensates by seeing more texture and can usually spot
camouflage, especially day old dead foliage.”
Experienced weapon developer J.D. Jones , inventor of
the Whisperâ rounds adds:
“One problem I have experienced with bullpups in
steady semi auto fire or full auto is the fumes of firing
escaping from the action are very irritating to the nose,
throat and eyes. In my limited experience the bullpups offer
much less in effectiveness when it comes to putting metal
on a target in a hurry (full auto--semi auto --or mounting the
gun) than a conventional M-16. But I readily admit I have
experience with only a few of them.”
PW: Interesting -and quite significant in that bullpups
are often touted as being better for firing from vehicles.
Fumes are a problem with any prolonged firing in a confined
space such as a vehicle, but it seems this is likely to be an
even greater problem with a Bullpup.
The Chinese military seem to have encountered the
same problem with their bullpup:-
“The Type 95 assault rifle adopts a bullpup layout
similar to the French Giat FAMAS and the British SA80
assault rifles. The efficiency of this design has been highly
controversial from the experience of its fielding in the PLA.
The weapon is generally regarded great when used for
close-range, hip-firing. However, when the weapon is used
for long-range accurate shoulder-firing, the smoke, noise,
heat and disturbance of the ejected cartridges are widely
complained.”
Type 95 5.8mm Bullpup
Being patriotic and adopting a British design is all very
well, but not if doing so puts the lives of British servicemen
unnecessarily at risk .
The modifications to the L85 had to be made in a
Germany factory anyway.
The only honourable solution is to scrap the SA80 now.
(We can't sell them, no other country has been foolish
enough to want to adopt them)
The M16 series of weapons are now tried, tested and
proven. They are considerably simpler than the L85 and
lack all its tactical disadvantages. The 16” barreled M4
versions are only a yard long, making them ideal for most
infantry tasks, including firing from vehicles or house
clearing.
If a more novel weapon that shows some improvements
over the M16 is wanted the MOD might consider the
Armalite AR-18, which was license built by the British
Sterling company as the "Sterling Assault Rifle". The AR-18
was simpler to manufacture than the M16 series and
eliminated the direct gas action system that many users
object to.
The latest re-incarnation, the semi-automatic AR-180B
uses many readily available M16 components such as the
trigger group and magazine.

 

[Hardi]

British Royal . Army with Sa85 rufle............ ..

 

[Chinmoy]

Ok
Agreed your right..
Hope Indian also find The Final And Effective results Under INSAS...

German Aslo faced Same Problem that we facing..
They Quickly Made That rifle.. Which is Best Then M-4, m-16,aks, and other.. Competitor..

Same.. this way British also Faced this too..
SA80 Rifle
The Iconic Rifle For Royal British Army
Produced in 85' .. used in Falkland war..and other.
But in 1990 British Army.. have to Modifications due to.. many Wrack problem using Rifle..

Here is Same situation..with insas.. Expert still stick on Favor because This is INDIAN.. (just because we love india)
British also like.. their.. produced weapons..but their force can't continues that weapons.. due to malfunction and jamming problem..
.. so British takes decision.. best for everyone..

And that is.. They redesign.. weapon. And given Contract to German H&K.. Manufacture..

And result are awesome.. in time need time..

See this article.....

What unsolved problem basically you are talking here of? Cracking polymer magazine, auto firing in automatic mode, jamming of rifle in extreme cold or heat? Are these the problems you are mentioning or has something else sprout out?

 

[Rchauhan]

What unsolved problem basically you are talking here of? Cracking polymer magazine, auto firing in automatic mode, jamming of rifle in extreme cold or heat? Are these the problems you are mentioning or has something else sprout out?

I think the biggest challenge is that it is not 7.62 (needed for Insurgency ) and weight .

 

[Shaitan]

UCR (Unified Combat Rifle) 7.62 X 51 mm NATO

One of the contenders for this program. UWS with Tonbo Imaging have won a assault rifle program for the Peruvian army. It will run for the new Indian one as well.

Lakshmikumar said the Tonbo-UWS partnership will offer the same package deal to the Indian government.

The Ministry of Defence has launched a hunt for a new-generation assault rifle, as reported by ET on September 27, 2016. According to the RFI (Request for Information), the army is looking to procure 185,000 assault rifles with about 65,000 to be delivered over the next four to 28 months.

“This package is now being offered to the Indian army as a part of the Indian army RFI for assault weapons. We will be doing field trials with various army groups to demonstrate the capabilities of the weapon,” Lakshmikumar said.

http://tech.economictimes.indiatime...llion-export-deal-with-peruvian-army/54795667

 

[Raj Malhotra]

A modernised 7.62x52 Isapore would be adequate for military but wonder it serves the need of Dalals. Note USA military is using modernised or upgraded M14s which are 20 year older than Isapores.

 

[ezsasa]

A modernised 7.62x52 Isapore would be adequate for military but wonder it serves the need of Dalals. Note USA military is using modernised or upgraded M14s which are 20 year older than Isapores.

I am assuming you are talking about this vvvv
1A1 - SLR (Probably made in trichy ord. factory)

not this vvvv
Ishapore rifle...

 

[Rchauhan]

@Admin :: I am not sure if this is the right Forum for this Query :
Just want to know if You are aware of the latest Update on the Purchase of Close quarter Carbine . Last I herd was that Defense ministry has send the issue (Since Only one Vendor IWI had qulified ) Law Ministry to check with them if they can select IWI as this is a one vendor Situation ... ????

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Not a single passed the trails held during 2012 and 2014 as well ..

==================
JVPC has passed its USER trails successfully and waiting for mass order conformation.

@Admin :: I am not sure if this is the right Forum for this Query :
Just want to know if You are aware of the latest Update on the Purchase of Close quarter Carbine . Last I herd was that Defense ministry has send the issue (Since Only one Vendor IWI had qulified ) Law Ministry to check with them if they can select IWI as this is a one vendor Situation ... ????

 

[Chinmoy]

I have done a close review of Ghatak, If you people want i can post it in detail in next few days ..

==============

We have INSAS thread as sticky, You can read it in detail ..

Almost all the negative point raised are been counter there with data and photos for better understanding ..

@Kunal Biswas ........ yet to receive the review on Ghatak

waiting eagerly.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Last touches on words, Will post sooner as possible..

@Kunal Biswas ........ yet to receive the review on Ghatak

waiting eagerly.

 

[Chinmoy]

Last touches on words, Will post sooner as possible..

Jaldi kar do............. @republic_roi97 @rishivashista13 Fauzi bhaiyo ki farmaiysh :biggrin2:

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Read the first post of the first page of this thread below >

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/threads/ghatak-assault-rifle-in-person-review.77639/

Jaldi kar do............. @republic_roi97 @rishivashista13 Fauzi bhaiyo ki farmaiysh :biggrin2:

 

[Rchauhan]

I guess it has been decided that which Rifle will replace INSAS ..

http://www.ibtimes.co.in/reliance-d...pany-make-new-kalashnikov-rifles-india-704066


Kalashnikov Israel ,, looks like a Great Gun , if they haven't touched the reliability part of AK then this is a beauty .

 

[Chinmoy]

I guess it has been decided that which Rifle will replace INSAS ..

http://www.ibtimes.co.in/reliance-d...pany-make-new-kalashnikov-rifles-india-704066


Kalashnikov Israel ,, looks like a Great Gun , if they haven't touched the reliability part of AK then this is a beauty .

Its Excalibur as an stop gap and MCIWS in long term as of now.

 

[Johny_Baba]

I guess it has been decided that which Rifle will replace INSAS ..

http://www.ibtimes.co.in/reliance-d...pany-make-new-kalashnikov-rifles-india-704066


Kalashnikov Israel ,, looks like a Great Gun , if they haven't touched the reliability part of AK then this is a beauty .

Hmm..looks quite ergonomic but the thing concern me about this Israeli Kalashnikov is the Charging handle slot in receiver body.
C'mon Israelis,do something about it.You've covered the slot in your Galil ace with spring loaded trapdoor.

Same goes with renowned FN FNC and his sister rifle AK-5.

Though i like Swiss idea most.Instead of Spring loaded trapdoor,they covered the slot with Rubberized padding in their SG550 series rifles.

 

[Rchauhan]

Its Excalibur as an stop gap and MCIWS in long term as of now.

They have been testing MCIWS for last 8 Years and still going strong ... though I would love to see an Indian Made Gun in the hands of out Soldiers (not at the cost of Quality as their Lives matter the Most and they Must get the best) . But It seems they have taken this Decision to cut through Red tape and provide the best to IA
http://www.ibtimes.co.in/reliance-d...pany-make-new-kalashnikov-rifles-india-704066