NCTC: National Counterterrorism Center

[Param]

Nrj, tell me you are sarcastic

Param, we do need central institutions also in addition to state ones. On grounds of federalism, we cannot argue for abolition of CBI, for example.

When it comes to terrorism, there must be a coordinating authority to coordinate across state police departments, and external intelligence sources like RAW, and internal intelligence like IB.

The unique nature of this scourge (terrorism) is such that it has multiple facets to it. Domestic sleeper cells with someone making a call via satellite phone to say, Dubai (IB will catch this), a Paki secretary on the payroll of RAW passing information to his RAW handler about a possible terror attack on so-and-so time, and a terror suspect having run from Mumbai to Rampur (true story).

Some amount of coordination is absolutely essential. A coordinating agency is needed. However, it will be good if this agency is autonomous, and as much out of "central government" influence as possible.

Why would I oppose Central Intelligence agencies?

Is there something wrong when 8 CMs of various states oppose this on the ground that it infringes upon state powers?

Law and order and police are one of the few powers that are still within state control. The past 6 months has seen a number of such anti federal laws proposed by the centre without even consulting the states.

And this is not about co ordination. All the state and other central agencies will be under NCTC.

 

[sob]

Nrj, tell me you are sarcastic
Some amount of coordination is absolutely essential. A coordinating agency is needed. However, it will be good if this agency is autonomous, and as much out of "central government" influence as possible.

This was one of the demands under the Jan Lokpal to make CBI autonomous and we saw how all the parties reacted.

 

[Bangalorean]

The real solution is to have autonomous bodies, which are free of political interference from the center.

We need coordinating agencies with a wide scope of powers. The thing is, the central government in power should not be allowed to manipulate and use these agencies to settle personal scores. It is a shame, the way IB has been used to tap telephones of opposition party members.

 

[Bangalorean]

Why would I oppose Central Intelligence agencies?

Is there something wrong when 8 CMs of various states oppose this on the ground that it infringes upon state powers?

Law and order and police are one of the few powers that are still within state control. The past 6 months has seen a number of such anti federal laws proposed by the centre without even consulting the states.

Let us not go by what the CMs of states are saying - they are also politicians after all. Very often, politicians in India protest just because they have to - just for the sake of it.

In the USA, there are certain offenses, such as drug related ones, which automatically bring in the FBI. That is essential because of the multiple facets that the American drug problem has, and the foreign angle involved in it.

What we really need, are impartial and autonomous coordinating agencies, which are not directly manipulated by the center politicos.

 

[nrj]

Nrj, tell me you are sarcastic

Thank you for recognizing.

--

No central government is going to stop using federal agencies, so its better if we just abolish all powers from union government including these enforcement agencies.

In fact central government shouldn't have any power at all because they can misuse it. We should rather appoint Lokpals everywhere. Down with politicians! Administrators ftw !

 

[Param]

The real solution is to have autonomous bodies, which are free of political interference from the center.

We need coordinating agencies with a wide scope of powers. The thing is, the central government in power should not be allowed to manipulate and use these agencies to settle personal scores. It is a shame, the way IB has been used to tap telephones of opposition party members.

The opposition CMs know this and that is the reason they are protesting.

That is the reason I am concerned.

But those who support this idea as better co ordination are either knowingly or unknowingly supporting the infringement upon state powers.

 

[Param]

Let us not go by what the CMs of states are saying - they are also politicians after all. Very often, politicians in India protest just because they have to - just for the sake of it.

In the USA, there are certain offenses, such as drug related ones, which automatically bring in the FBI. That is essential because of the multiple facets that the American drug problem has, and the foreign angle involved in it.

What we really need, are impartial and autonomous coordinating agencies, which are not directly manipulated by the center politicos.

Lets be practical.
There is never going to be completely neutral or autonomous law enforcement or investigative agency.Any centre will use central agencies for known purposes.

So why should one support another idea that is not neutral from inception?

 

[Ray]

Centralisation does not mean that one overrides the local agencies.

Where we fail is that we don't think coordinating with local bodies is important and instead want to barge in like a bull in a china shop.

That will be at cross purposes!

Imagine the NIA pursuing the political agenda of the Central Govt over a State Govt's own agenda?

Haven't we seen how the Governor's act on the behest of the Central Govt political agenda?

Can the central agency given the power be totally professional and beyond political goading?

Is the CBI beyond political control?

If it weren't then how is it that Laloo, Mulayam, Mayawati, Chidambaram, Khurshed are beyond enquiry, even if the allegations are not 100% correct?

To imagine a CVC being appointed who has a case pending!!!!

Obviously such a CVC would be like a puppet on a string and yet appear to be clean as a whistle!

 

[Bangalorean]

Lets be practical.
There is never going to be completely neutral or autonomous law enforcement or investigative agency.Any centre will use central agencies for known purposes.

So why should one support another idea that is not neutral from inception?

I get the point that you and Ray sir are making.

But then, we need to get things working in such a way that misuse does not occur. This is not just for this newly planned anti terror agency, but the existing ones like CBI, IB and even state police! State police is misused more than any other agency!

We need to get that culture of autonomous and impartial agencies into our nation. Things like police reform will set the ball rolling - once the culture is entrenched, it will not be a problem.

 

[nrj]

I hear the same argument from district collector, city mayor, local MP/MLA that state government ministers are misusing their agencies like Police, ATS to pursue political agenda harassing opposition & good people. Maybe state government shouldn't also have any control over enforcement agencies. In fact there shouldn't be any Home Ministry which oversees security issues.

 

[Param]

I get the point that you and Ray sir are making.

But then, we need to get things working in such a way that misuse does not occur. This is not just for this newly planned anti terror agency, but the existing ones like CBI, IB and even state police! State police is misused more than any other agency!

We need to get that culture of autonomous and impartial agencies into our nation. Things like police reform will set the ball rolling - once the culture is entrenched, it will not be a problem.

Who is going to ensure that?

The Centre did not even consult the states.

I too wish we had autonomous agencies, but if wishes were horses the.....
Lets be realistic.

 

[Bangalorean]

Who is going to ensure that?

The Centre did not even consult the states.

It has to be an ongoing process. First of all, the long-pending police reforms must be enacted. The state police forces are the most misused of all public agencies.

Then, other reforms on the cards for central agencies also need to be implemented. The culture of reasonably independent agencies will gradually seep in, once these initial steps are taken.

 

[Ray]

The only way to ensure that the Police are not handmaidens of politicians, is the Police Reform


Directive One
Constitute a State Security Commission (SSC) to:
(i) Ensure that the state government does not exercise unwarranted influence or pressure on the police
(ii) Lay down broad policy guideline and
(iii) Evaluate the performance of the state police

Directive Two
Ensure that the DGP is appointed through merit based transparent process and secure a minimum tenure of two years

Directive Three
Ensure that other police officers on operational duties (including Superintendents of Police in-charge of a district and Station House Officers in-charge of a police station) are also provided a minimum tenure of two years

Directive Four
Separate the investigation and law and order functions of the police

Directive Five
Set up a Police Establishment Board (PEB) to decide transfers, postings, promotions and other service related matters of police officers of and below the rank of Deputy Superintendent of Police and make recommendations on postings and transfers above the rank of Deputy Superintendent of Police

Directive Six
Set up a Police Complaints Authority (PCA) at state level to inquire into public complaints against police officers of and above the rank of Deputy Superintendent of Police in cases of serious misconduct, including custodial death, grievous hurt, or rape in police custody and at district levels to inquire into public complaints against the police personnel below the rank of Deputy Superintendent of Police in cases of serious misconduct

Directive Seven
Set up a National Security Commission (NSC) at the union level to prepare a panel for selection and placement of Chiefs of the Central Police Organisations (CPO) with a minimum tenure of two years

More at:

http://www.humanrightsinitiative.or.../initiatives/seven_steps_to_police_reform.pdf

 

[Param]

It has to be an ongoing process. First of all, the long-pending police reforms must be enacted. The state police forces are the most misused of all public agencies.

Then, other reforms on the cards for central agencies also need to be implemented. The culture of reasonably independent agencies will gradually seep in, once these initial steps are taken.

You are talking about what should be done and I completely agree with you.

But the issue in hand is different from what you are emphasizing.

And how is NCTC remotely related to police reforms?

The centre does not think like you or me.It is not interested in an autonomous or neutral agency. It is going ahead with a another CBI or NIA like Central controlled agency that will only bring State police under its control.

 

[KS]

I would have supported this law (even if it infringes upon state powers) if India had been a country like US where petty political point scoring does not happen much when it comes to national security, but unfortunately in India political point scoring >>>>> national security.

So no, any law which even remotely infringes upon the state powers is not welcome.

 

[Ray]

Kartik has hit the hammer on the nail!

There is no faith amongst the people about the bonafide of the Centre!

 

[sukhish]

Go through the constituiton. There is something called central and state list

law and order is a state subject.

great, also terror might be a state subject too. in that case we won't even need NSG.
a

 

[Param]

great, also terror might be a state subject too. in that case we won't even need NSG.
a

The centre collects taxes from the states and this revenue goes into maintaining security forces and organisations including NSG.

So the states have the right to ask for help when their own forces are not able to bring the situation under control.

There is a difference between situations when one who has the right to ask for help , asks for it and someone bulldozing their way by taking up someone else's authority without their request.

No one here would oppose a central move if it consults and takes the states into confidence with necessary safeguards.
Instead of behaving in an arrogant fashion and infringing upon state powers with a non autonomous central agency they could have done better.

Btw would you have the same view points if it was a BJP central govt instead of Cong?

 

[Mad Indian]

But national Integration rather than division is more important... For instance if we had had a stronger center, no one would dare play politics in affairs like Mullaperiyar, Kaveri etc....

 

[Param]

But national Integration rather than division is more important... For instance if we had had a stronger center, no one would dare play politics in affairs like Mullaperiyar, Kaveri etc....

Refer to this thread and post #15 in particular.
http://defenceforumindia.com/politics-society/28511-splitting-linguistic-states-dangerous-federalism.html

There is something called Federalism.