Naval MRCA contest. Lockheed offers F-35 to IN

[StealthSniper]

Ohh.. Not the same "dont buy US" rhetoric again. Naval MMRCA is too small a deal for it to get ToT of any fighter. Even a downgraded version of F-35 will be hell of a deal considering the maturity in stealth it will bring to navy's arsenal.

And moreover, Russia is no China to reverse engineer American products and India is no Pakistan to allow its American equipments to reach foreign hands. Like P-8I, if approved, F-35 too will come with end-user agreements.

Also, I am not too hopeful about F-35 deal approval either. US senate most probably will reject it. But, incase approved, i dont think Navy is stupid enough to let this pass as it is the one which requested RFI for F-35 in the first place.

If the NAVY somehow does get this fighter, I will be prepared to see the Indian Navy go bankrupt from trying to buy or maintain these planes in the first place. I have provided links and have read from other informed sources that the US NAVY and the British Navy can't even afford to operate it so how can India operate it.


Again I think the Indian Navy is rushing CATOBAR and they should at least get the damn STOBAR carriers working and operational before they even look at F-35 or even CATOBAR. We don't even know how the Mig-29k, or Gorshkov are going to work out and we are already dreaming about F-35's and stuff. We have to walk before we can run and besides I think Mig-29k with tejas and 2 STOBAR A/C are more then enough for at least 2 decades. If not prove me wrong.


By the way I like saying "don't buy US" when it comes to fighter jets and other front line military equipment, but I also like saying "buy US" when it comes to P-8i and C-17 because we probably will get more tech transfer and the C-17 and P-8i probably won't be downgraded when we get them.

 

[Rage]

Well, well, well... waddaya know.Yeeee haaaw!


Frankly, 'sounds too good to be true. I'd like an alternative source if you had one.

Then again, the United States' strategic prerogatives could change 7-8 years from now, as could ours, and continued problems plaguing the fifth generation fighter program's development mean that we could be left in a precarious position in terms of spares and maintenance.

Proceed with caution.

 

[asan_kaka]

I think india should pay more attention to the significance behind the info.
after eu anticipating F35 project, the ability of developing advanced jets was almost eliminiated.
this is really a tragedy. this is called "systematically kill".

 

[tarunraju]

It's a trap.

Buy crappy F-16 now, only to wait for another decade (and a half) for F-35, and sabotage the FGFA programme waiting for it.

The US is running out of takers for the JSF (quantitatively). Everyone in the JSF programme is scaling down their orders, which makes the programme itself lesser viable. So taking someone like India (which can afford F-35, and which is in an unsafe neighbourhood) onboard will just work to the interests of the larger stakeholders of the JSF, not essentially India.

India technically has greater stakes in PAK-FA, the FGFA programme, and if executed well, we could end up with larger quantities of 5th gen fighters, and greater access to 5th gen fighter technologies. With F-35, we may end up with a lesser-capable variant, with closed software source codes, possible "kill-switches", and God knows what. The fact that 4(+/+) generation Su-27 and Su-30 can dominate F-35 in visual range combat shows that there's reason to be confident in Sukhoi's designs.

 

[ppgj]

Again I think the Indian Navy is rushing CATOBAR and they should at least get the damn STOBAR carriers working and operational before they even look at F-35 or even CATOBAR.

IN has good experience with STOBAR AC though they have not operated fighters with arrested recovery for landing. the pilots are undergoing training and so, should not be a problem.

CATOBAR gives you an advantage. it gives the fighters max payload to take off while saving on fuel for a better range. hence it is worth having. IAC 2 in any case will come only about 2018.

F-35 is just speculation.

We don't even know how the Mig-29k, or Gorshkov are going to work out and we are already dreaming about F-35's and stuff.

rest assured. they will pack a punch.

We have to walk before we can run

yes. we have to walk before run. but IN has already walked!! we have operated both STOVL and STOBAR for decades.

and besides I think Mig-29k with tejas and 2 STOBAR A/C are more then enough for at least 2 decades. If not prove me wrong.

IN needs 3 minimum. 1 on each coast (east and west) and one in reserve/maintainence/standby.

yes the 2 STOBAR AC'S will last min. 2 decades.

 

[Rebelkid]

It's a trap.

Buy crappy F-16 now, only to wait for another decade (and a half) for F-35, and sabotage the FGFA programme waiting for it.

The US is running out of takers for the JSF (quantitatively). Everyone in the JSF programme is scaling down their orders, which makes the programme itself lesser viable. So taking someone like India (which can afford F-35, and which is in an unsafe neighbourhood) onboard will just work to the interests of the larger stakeholders of the JSF, not essentially India.

India technically has greater stakes in PAK-FA, the FGFA programme, and if executed well, we could end up with larger quantities of 5th gen fighters, and greater access to 5th gen fighter technologies. With F-35, we may end up with a lesser-capable variant, with closed software source codes, possible "kill-switches", and God knows what. The fact that 4(+/+) generation Su-27 and Su-30 can dominate F-35 in visual range combat shows that there's reason to be confident in Sukhoi's designs.

Not F-16 I heard F-18 and Rafael are the only contenders left in the MMRCA so you can expect the F-18 to win the deal if F-35 is inducted into the forces ..

 

[tarunraju]

Not F-16 I heard F-18 and Rafael are the only contenders left in the MMRCA so you can expect the F-18 to win the deal if F-35 is inducted into the forces ..

Read the OP, it said F-16. The F-16IN has not been shortlisted yet. None of the contenders are.

 

[StealthSniper]

IN has good experience with STOBAR AC though they have not operated fighters with arrested recovery for landing. the pilots are undergoing training and so, should not be a problem. CATOBAR gives you an advantage. it gives the fighters max payload to take off while saving on fuel for a better range. hence it is worth having. IAC 2 in any case will come only about 2018. F-35 is just speculation.

Yeah if we induct CATOBAR in 2018 that is a good timeframe. It just seems that the NAVY is trying to come up with a solution right away for CATOBAR and maybe it's just the media hyping things up alot or something. And PPGJ I do agree with you that CATOBAR has more advantages than disadvantages and will help the Indian NAVY be more efficent in times of war.

rest assured. they will pack a punch.

I don't disagree with you their my brother.

yes. we have to walk before run. but IN has already walked!! we have operated both STOVL and STOBAR for decades.

I was mentioning the fact that we are using a bigger aircraft carrier this time (Gorshkov) and will also be using a fully indigenous A/C (IAC1). I don't think we will have any problems because of our brave, well trained, NAVY personal but it will be an adjustment from our smaller single A/C.

IN needs 3 minimum. 1 on each coast (east and west) and one in reserve/maintainence/standby.
yes the 2 STOBAR AC'S will last min. 2 decades.

Yup, your right we definitely need one in reserve. In fact we should have 4 A/C if you really think about it:

1- Eastern command
2- Western command
3- Southern command
4- Reserve

 

[ppgj]

It just seems that the NAVY is trying to come up with a solution right away for CATOBAR and maybe it's just the media hyping things up alot or something.

no SS. they are neither hurrying nor is there any media hype. it is just that IN, (being the most professional wing of india's armed forces ), planning things in advance for 2018 when IAC 2 will come online.

I was mentioning the fact that we are using a bigger aircraft carrier this time (Gorshkov) and will also be using a fully indigenous A/C (IAC1). I don't think we will have any problems because of our brave, well trained, NAVY personal but it will be an adjustment from our smaller single A/C.

size does not matter. when you drive an alto, you can drive an audi too!

bsesides planning personnel etc is according to the acquisition. besides you answered yourself which i have highlighted in bold.

 

[notinlove]

any figures as to what percentage of max takeoff weight can mig 29k's can carry while operating from the 14.3 degree skijump of vikramaditya?

 

[Quickgun Murugan]

If the NAVY somehow does get this fighter, I will be prepared to see the Indian Navy go bankrupt from trying to buy or maintain these planes in the first place. I have provided links and have read from other informed sources that the US NAVY and the British Navy can't even afford to operate it so how can India operate it.

Just take this example. IAF operates Su 30 MKI which has cost per flight hour of $12000. When IAF is supposed to manage 280 of these babies + MMRCA +PAKFA without going bankrupt, F-35 with the projected cost per flight hour for varying from $ 18000-30000 and just being 40 in numbers will not lead to Indian Navy's Bankrupcy. Yes, Navy might get bankrupt operating 3-5 A/C's but just don't blame it on F-35.

If USN not able to afford F-35 is just B.S.

Again I think the Indian Navy is rushing CATOBAR and they should at least get the damn STOBAR carriers working and operational before they even look at F-35 or even CATOBAR. We don't even know how the Mig-29k, or Gorshkov are going to work out and we are already dreaming about F-35's and stuff. We have to walk before we can run and besides I think Mig-29k with tejas and 2 STOBAR A/C are more then enough for at least 2 decades. If not prove me wrong.

I agree. First of all, I did not understand the purpose of Naval MMRCA only. But, its not like we are going to get F-35 approved immediately or something. IAC-2 wont be operational atleast until 2020. If approved, India cannot get F-35 until 2020 with existing F-35 production commitments. So, the timing is pretty much right.

By the way I like saying "don't buy US" when it comes to fighter jets and other front line military equipment, but I also like saying "buy US" when it comes to P-8i and C-17 because we probably will get more tech transfer and the C-17 and P-8i probably won't be downgraded when we get them.

I dont think there is tech transfer for P-8i. And who told you that P-8i for India will not be downgraded compared to USN? US will always keep the best inventions with itself.

We are buying P-8I and C-17 as there is no other choice in terms of quality for the same product. Likewise, even a downgraded F-35 will be better than any of the other competitors in Naval MMRCA.

 

[neo29]

its made by huge number of countries, this fighter would probably beat the record of the number of f-16 fighters used by many countries.

its better to have uniqueness in such a advanced technological hardware like 5th gen. just like PAK FA and brahmos missile.

 

[thakur_ritesh]

To being with, this news looks by all means as confirmed since IN has sent a rfi to lockheed martin for f35 for their mrca, which wouldn’t have happened had the us government not given an initial acceptance.

That apart, there was a time when the per unit price of f35 was being talked about around 55-60 m usd, but the same figure hovers around 100-120m usd with prospects on the same looking very bleak with one speculation from the UK hinting the price to scale as high as 200m usd and this wont be the highly customized version that Israel intends to have which was previously being speculated to be around that price, and there is no way on earth the IAF will allow the IN to have this pie.

Imagine navy wants to have 40-60 units of f35, what a economical disaster would it turn out to be where the operating costs attached would be phenomenal with one such speculation putting the price of operating this jet for one hour at around 30-35,000usd and that price is for the airforce version, this when operating three to four aircraft carriers and cbvg will cost an astronomical amount, and that’s not all to a navy, right!

India has a fgfa to look forward to, though there is no official confirmation on the same having a carrier version, and India looks very keen to also have a ngfa which will be in the same weight class of a f35 for which the initial work has started and India is in talks with the russians, which hopefully if the things go right we should have the plane around the 2025 timeline.

We better make sensible decisions today so that by 2040-50 when we look to replace all these mmrca and the naval mrca we need not look to foreign sources yet again to replace them, or else the dream of India to be a power to reckon with will just remain a dream for many more decades!

Better stick to other four contenders for which the rfi has been sent, and not get carried away, which could also possibly have a commonality with the proposed jet for the iaf mmrca.

 

[neo29]

i have heard rumours and read somewhere that UK is considering rafale for its navy since the f-35 production will take longer than expected and long list of deliveries to its allies which will be time consuming.

 

[prahladh]

other than the billions we need to spend to buy and maintain these birds we will even have to put up with rhetoric from neighboring media and big talk on peace and regional balance from neighboring generals, neighbors.

 

[nitesh]

from Horse's mouth:

news.outlookindia.com

Indian Navy is willing to procure F-35 advanced fighters from US, but it is not interested in F-18 fighter planes as they are not "compatible" with the aircraft carriers of the naval force, Chief of Naval Staff Admiral Arun Prakash said here today.

"Yes. Given an offer, we will be much interested in having the F-35 fighters," Admiral Prakash told reporters when asked if the Navy would be willing to procure the advanced fighters from the US.

He was speaking to reporters after the commissioning of warship INS Beas at the Garden Reach Shipbuilders and Engineers Ltd. Admiral Prakash said that the F-18 aircraft, being offered by the US to Indian armed forces, would not be relevant for the Navy. "F-18 is a carrier-borne aircraft, but needs steam catapult (for take-off). It is not compatible to ski-jump and therefore, not suitable for our type of aircraft carriers," he said. On the other hand the F-35 aircraft were of the ski-jump type and would be suitable for the Navy's aircraft carriers, he explained.

The Navy was also looking for acquisition of "reconnoisseur aircraft but not of AWACS type," Admiral Prakash said, but hastened to add that plans were underway to replace the Sea Harrier fighter aircraft with MiG 29-K and light combat aircraft (LCA). "We have one squadron of fighter aircraft Sea Harrier with INS Virat, but it will be replaced by Mig 29-K or LCA," he said.

 

[black eagle]

Naval version of Tejas under water as decisions stay pending



BY: DNA

he naval version of Tejas, the indigenous light combat aircraft (LCA), is stuck in a limbo due to delay in decision-making, pushing the project 3-4 years behind schedule.

An official close to programme, who did not want to be named, said that despite a planned sanction of over Rs 600 crore by the Indian Navy to the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) for design and development of the carrier-borne LCA, the project is languishing “due to delays in decisions by the authorities concerned.”

“It’s been more than a year since foreign aircraft-makers have responded to the request for proposal (RFP) of DRDO’s aeronautical development agency (ADA) for the naval variant of Tejas, but ADA has yet to take a decision on selection of one of them,” said the official.

The aircraft vendors who responded to the RFP include Boeing, Lockheed Martin, Saab, Dassault, Eurofighter and MiG. They will help ADA to carry out the feasibility study and modify the fighter.

Apparently, development of the aircraft is getting delayed because the L1 (lowest tender) identified by ADA — Lockheed Martin — does not have the approvals and licenses to carry out the “full gambit of work identified.” Also, according to an insider, there were many gaps in the proposal submitted by Lockheed.

“Owing to these shortcomings, which had emerged after discussions with the L1 (Lockheed), additional time (six months) was granted to them for obtaining the necessary approvals (from the US government) and revising the area of work so as to cover all the aspects,” said the source.

That period lapsed in September 2009, but the government has not approached the second lowest bidder as stated in the existing rules.

“Normally, only a period of 60- 90 days is given but in this case, initially a period of two months was granted verbally, followed up by another three months. It is not clear as to what ADA plans to do now or who is bearing the cost of this delay,” said the source.

When contacted, P S Subramanyam, programme director at ADA, said he could not provide details on the bidding process of the project as it was “classified information.”

“It (RFP) is still under consideration and the project is going on,” Subramanyam told DNA.

Another industry source, who did not want to be named, said the LCA project of the Indian Navy has been put on the backburner for now as there was no urgent requirement for it.

“They (the navy) are trying to get proven aircraft instead of concentrating on an experimental aircraft,” he said.

Meanwhile, the navy has floated a request for information (RFI) to global aircraft manufacturers for new generation multi-role combat aircraft to be decked on its Russian aircraft carrier Gorshkov, which has been renamed INS Vikramaditya, or the INS Viraat.

Currently, the Indian Navy fleet consists of Russian MiG 29K and the British vintage Sea Harrier. It has already received four of the MiG29K and will take delivery of 18 others over the next few years.

Naval version of Tejas under water as decisions stay pending idrw.org

 

[Quickgun Murugan]

To being with, this news looks by all means as confirmed since IN has sent a rfi to lockheed martin for f35 for their mrca, which wouldn’t have happened had the us government not given an initial acceptance.

That apart, there was a time when the per unit price of f35 was being talked about around 55-60 m usd, but the same figure hovers around 100-120m usd with prospects on the same looking very bleak with one speculation from the UK hinting the price to scale as high as 200m usd and this wont be the highly customized version that Israel intends to have which was previously being speculated to be around that price, and there is no way on earth the IAF will allow the IN to have this pie.

Imagine navy wants to have 40-60 units of f35, what a economical disaster would it turn out to be where the operating costs attached would be phenomenal with one such speculation putting the price of operating this jet for one hour at around 30-35,000usd and that price is for the airforce version, this when operating three to four aircraft carriers and cbvg will cost an astronomical amount, and that’s not all to a navy, right!

India has a fgfa to look forward to, though there is no official confirmation on the same having a carrier version, and India looks very keen to also have a ngfa which will be in the same weight class of a f35 for which the initial work has started and India is in talks with the russians, which hopefully if the things go right we should have the plane around the 2025 timeline.

We better make sensible decisions today so that by 2040-50 when we look to replace all these mmrca and the naval mrca we need not look to foreign sources yet again to replace them, or else the dream of India to be a power to reckon with will just remain a dream for many more decades!

Better stick to other four contenders for which the rfi has been sent, and not get carried away, which could also possibly have a commonality with the proposed jet for the iaf mmrca.

1. The numbers 40-60 is merely speculative. It totally depends on the capacity of IAC-2 which is still in paper.

2. Cost per flight hour of F-35 is not 30K-35K for airforce version. It varies from 18K-30K (Airforce-Naval).

This is from another forum for F-35 AF version

Recently Australian parliament states that F-35:

-Fly Away costs roughly 69 million USD
-Procurment costs roughly 100 million USD
-30 year life long costs roughly 225 million USD

So after procurment in 30 years each F-35 will cost 125 million USD, meaning that for each F-35 4.2 million USD must be spend. Lets claim that Australian pilots will fly avarage 210 hours per year, so we get roughly 20,000 USD for each flight hour.

3. As I said before, Navy has higher chance of getting bankrupt operating 3-5 A/C's than getting bankrupt by operating F-35.


There is no concept of Naval Pak-Fa at all. Not even in papers. At this time even the actual engine for Pak-Fa is not ready and that they are flying the prototype with Al-41 engines. I am not aware of any R&D work in Russia which is working on vertical landing engines atleast in design stage.

 

[bengalraider]

Saab generates new JAS-model​

Published January 14, 2010 - 19:22
Updated 14 January 2010 - 20:36
Aircraft manufacturer Saab will present shortly a new version of the JAS Gripen fighter plane, the report can now reveal. The new version is specially adapted for aircraft carriers. The background is that the Indian Navy has turned to Saab with an inquiry.
The new aircraft is based on the latest NG version of the JAS Gripen, the model Saab is now trying to sell to several different countries. Of these, Brazil and India also showed interest for the aircraft carrier-based variant.
Saab has been over a year working on the project and will shortly be submitting a development plan for the Indian Navy. These include the strengthening of the landing wheels, some other technical changes and a hook on landing.
The new aircraft carrier-based version of the Gripen is called Sea Gripen and are not in reality but only on the drawing board. The background to India's interest is the country's plans for a major expansion of its aircraft carrier fleet in the next 10-15 years.
Overall, it is about three to five new aircraft carriers, which means that any business may be about 50 to 100 new fighter planes. Gripen is one of several aircraft that are being considered.
This deal is completely off the Indian Air Force are now at the final stage of. These are just over 100 new aircraft to be purchased and also here is JAS Gripen is a candidate.
The original specification for the JAS Gripen makes that only limited modifications of the plane to make it clear aircraft carrier takeoffs and landings, according to project manager Peter Nilsson.
The Swedish system with vägbaser has made great demands on the possibility of land on narrow roads and short runways. An environment that is similar to what happens on an aircraft carrier, he says.
Mats Knutson

Google Translate

 

[thakur_ritesh]

1. The numbers 40-60 is merely speculative. It totally depends on the capacity of IAC-2 which is still in paper.

2. Cost per flight hour of F-35 is not 30K-35K for airforce version. It varies from 18K-30K (Airforce-Naval).

This is from another forum for F-35 AF version



3. As I said before, Navy has higher chance of getting bankrupt operating 3-5 A/C's than getting bankrupt by operating F-35.


There is no concept of Naval Pak-Fa at all. Not even in papers. At this time even the actual engine for Pak-Fa is not ready and that they are flying the prototype with Al-41 engines. I am not aware of any R&D work in Russia which is working on vertical landing engines atleast in design stage.

thanks for clarifying that.

IN plans to have an air wing to the tune of 400 aircrafts, which will comprise of 150 combat jets, which will be based out of land and sea. out these 150, 45 as we all know has been slotted for the mig29k, the supposed figure for the n-lca is around 40-50, and the rest for mrca, or so it is being assumed and so the figure of 40-60.

the Indian navy aims to have a fleet of 160-plus ships, three aircraft carriers and 400 aircraft of different types.

Indian Navy to position men on French aircraft carrier

the procurement figure for f35 cant be ascertained as yet because the project is still underway with cost over runs, which will vary from a more recent figure of 100/120m usd/unit to whatever, and as per one speculation to around 200m usd.

let us assume the procurement figure is between 120-150m usd, this comes without the requisite infrastructure in place which in it self will call for a lot of investments (i am not able to source this investment figure but this figure is huge, running into 10s of millions of usd/unit).

the operating costs for the naval version are always high, compared to the airforce version. the operating cost for 4000hours varies between 72-120million usd as per the figures you have given, and this is without the requisite MLU which would be quite expensive.

considering all the costs the life time costs of one jet will vary between 250(+)-350(+)m usd, the ministry of finance (which will have the final call) is better of spending this money more judiciously.

on a similar note if we were to go for the rest of the four contenders, which would likely have a commonality with its air force counter part of mmrca, the life time costs will be around 80-200m usd depending on what aircraft we go for, and if we go for a common platform our bargaining power on price would be that much more since the number of jets to be negotiated would be to the tune of 240(+) considering the iaf increases the order to 200 units, and i am sure the iaf does not want to end up with f16s.

now if the navy were to spend that astronomical amount on just one aircraft (read f35), what about the sourcing of money for procuring and operating the rest 350 odd aircrafts, and 160-200 sea vessels out of which they intend to have 30 submarines, and 3-4 cbvg. the navy certainly does not want to reach a situation where their very existence becomes a burden on the state, and then they start facing a situation similar to the royal navy.

when i use the term judiciously, i hint at the annual budget which today is around 200b usd of which around 150b usd comes as revenue generated, and rest is a debt on the exchequer, so a country with limited resources needs to think trough all these things and its not as if the navy will only fly f35s, if they have a requirement of 3cbvg, along with 30 submarines then they better work out their finances well!