Naval MRCA contest. Lockheed offers F-35 to IN

StealthSniper

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2009
Messages
1,111
Likes
61
Well I heard the Russians were making the PAK-FA naval variant. Are we going for it? If we go for that then I dont see where the whole MMRCA-Navy fits into. And I would rather see a Naval MCA.

I don't think a PAKFA variant even if it was offered is what India needs right now Satish. I think people need to understand that we won't become an American Navy or even a Russian Navy overnight. India needs to take things slow and the Navy has been doing very good so far with it's strict policy on indigenization. If the Navy takes things slowly they should have a Naval variant of the LCA that can be configured to do CATOBAR operations in the future.


In my view the most vital thing that we need to do to be in the right footsteps of America and other large navies is to build our in house production facilities first. We need to get away from buying foreign equipment and start fast tracking our own projects to get the results we need. We will never be a superpower or even a decent regional power if we keep buying "Sea Gripens" and other fighters that won't further gain our own economy and industry.


Now I understand that we are inducting Mig-29k from Russia but we have a partnership with Russia and we have learned valuable things from them. They are actually helping our self sufficency plans and Russia has never said where or who we can or can't attack. I do like the idea of getting technology from America or Europe also but they have alot of political and technology strings attached that are just not worth it.


If India can make an aircraft carrier with Indian engineers then I am pretty sure that India can make a LCA work in a CATOBAR environment.
 

ZOOM

Founding Member
Regular Member
Joined
Feb 17, 2009
Messages
577
Likes
11
At this point of time, India should solely concentrate on Naval LCA platform as its next flagship career based fighter jet being employed for Multirole oriented missions. It seems to me that Navy would certainly cash in on all the delays happened in MRCA project, as it will enable IN to get quick clearance of funding and at the same time exisiting evaluation that is going on among top contenders of MRCA, it will help IN to choose best aircraft that can suit Indian conditions and Logistics requirements.
:india:
 

notinlove

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 11, 2009
Messages
466
Likes
23
Not Abandoned N-Tejas yet

Recently Indian Navy issued Request for information (RFI) for the purchase of undisclosed numbers of Multi role Fighter which it wants to purchase for its Second Indigenous Aircraft carrier which will be built in India and will join Indian Navy by 2018. In December Mig-29K started arriving in India in semi -knocked down condition which was purchased for INS Vikramaditya, reports suggests that Indian Navy may order more Mig-29K for First Indigenous Aircraft carrier also .But recent development of purchase of second line of New Naval Fighter jet has been blamed in largely blamed by many sections of media on delays faced by the countries Indigenous Naval Tejas Project. Highly placed source based in Goa’s Naval Air Wing has confirmed (lca-tejas.org) that Indian Navy has not abandoned Naval Variant of Tejas yet and are actually very much interested in the project its self, they has been confirmation that Navy is interested in getting N-Tejas with High powered engines which Air force wants for Tejas MK-II rather then the Currently powered engines of GE. Indian Navy wants to maintain around 150 Naval Fighter aircrafts by 2020 for Carrier and Land Based operations, Navy is no hurry in Procurement of Naval Tejas since India’s first Indigenous Aircraft carrier will be operational only by 2014 at best and Navy want best of the Tejas Project .Navy also will be building a Carrier type deck close to Naval Base INS Hansa where Carrier takeoff and landing will be simulated for Training of Future pilots of Indian Navy , First Prototype of NP-1 a Naval Tejas will make to air by end of 2010 and will also be based in INS Hansa for carrying out all necessary test to get clearance for Carrier operations , NP-1 will have design similarities with recently test flown PV-5 which is a Air force Trainer variant .

Not Abandoned N-Tejas yet IDRW.ORG
 

Rage

DFI TEAM
Senior Member
Joined
Feb 23, 2009
Messages
5,419
Likes
1,001
Indian Navy issues RFI for carrier-based fighter aircraft

29 December 2009

domain-b.com : Indian Navy issues RFI for carrier-based fighter aircraft

The Indian Navy has issued a request for information (RFI) for state-of-the-art, multi-role, new generation carrier-based fighter aircraft to four global aerospace firms, including Swden's SAAB for their fighter the Sea Gripen, which is a navalised version of the Gripen JAS-39.

Other firms and their offerings are the European Aeronautic Defence and Space Company (EADS) for their Eurofighter Typhoon, the Boeing Integrated Defence System for their F/A-18 Super Hornet) and France's Dassault for its Rafale.

If selected, the new aircraft would likely be deployed aboard the Navy's second Indigenous Aircraft Carrier (IAC), which is expected to be commissioned around 2018.

Of these four contenders, both the American Super Hornet and the French Rafale have been developed as carrier-based platforms from the conception stage itself. The Typhoon and the Gripen will require a certain amount of modification.


Reports suggest that the Navy may have received clearance from the government for the purchase. The RFI, apparently, does not specify either the number of aircraft that the Navy would wish to acquire, or other modalities such as offset requirements.

The new aircraft, which will be in addition to the 16 Russian-manufactured MiG-29Ks that India is acquiring, as well as the naval version of the indigenous Light Combat Aircraft Tejas, which is currently under development.

As per conjecture, while the MiG-29Ks will operate from the 44,570-tonne Admiral Gorshkov (re-designated INS Vikramaditya), the naval Tejas will operate from the first of the 38,000 tonne IACs, currently under construction at the Kochi shipyard.

The Indian Navy's fighter jet complement consists only of the British-made Sea Harrier jump jets which operate from the aircraft carrier, INS Viraat. The Harriers will continue to operate as long as the Viraat retains operational life, which is till 2019.
 

neo29

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 1, 2009
Messages
1,284
Likes
30
they can get this done fast ... since most tests for different climates are already done in the mmrca .
only tests pertaining to aircraft carrier and others in sea shud be done.

this process shud surely take less time than the mmrca.
 

sandeepdg

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 5, 2009
Messages
2,333
Likes
227
If the naval MMRCAs are for for the second IAC which is not due before 2018, then we shouldn't be read too much into it, since the first IAC is due sometime around 2014-2015 and as is known that its fleet of aircrafts will be the N-Tejas, then obviously they should come into the picture before any of the N-MMRCA contenders come in. Hopefully they should be ready by the time the second IAC takes to the sea, the only stumbling block being the new engines for both airforce and naval variant of the LCA which rely on underpowered GE F404 engines as of now.
 

Zoravar

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 3, 2010
Messages
283
Likes
43
We shud never buy american equipment cuz they can be physically checked and come with terms of use.Russia gives us same equipment at bettr price and doesnt even check.
 

Soham

DFI TEAM
Senior Member
Joined
Mar 22, 2009
Messages
1,972
Likes
91
Country flag
In my opinion, this isn't as bad as everyone thinks it is. 40 fighters will provide a significant boost to the Naval Aviation, till the N-LCA is inducted.
Shore-based air-support gives a decisive advantage to any navy operating in a hostile environment.

We have no clue by when the carriers will come into the picture. The speculative dates given by the shipyards have a history of erring from the actual dates of release, and in something as huge as a carrier, I won't be too high on hopes of timely delivery.

Plus commonality with MRCA(for the IAF) will increase our level of interoperability and save up on logistics.
 

neo29

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 1, 2009
Messages
1,284
Likes
30
since our IAC 2 is no earlier than 2018. we should look into the f-35. surely f-35 should be up for export by 2015-16.
mig 29s and lca for admiral gorskhov , sea gripens or sh 18 or lca for IAC 1 and f-35 for IAC 2.

in case the deal to buy AC from UK goes well , we shud buy more f-35.
 

Zoravar

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 3, 2010
Messages
283
Likes
43
We shud disqualify all american competitors in any competition on political grounds.as for ground attack using mig 29,it can do the ususal bilt.we shud continue with mig29k or induct fgfa naval.
 

Zoravar

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 3, 2010
Messages
283
Likes
43
Buying an aircraft carrier from the Uk isnt really recommended because we will not have any suitable aircraft to operate from them.F-35 is a bad political choice although i heard the carriers were designed so that they can be converted into catobar and stobar.I realized mig29k cannot operate from catobar carriers but some modifications and it might be able to.Also those mig29k's should be upgraded into mig35 in the near future/
 

neo29

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 1, 2009
Messages
1,284
Likes
30
Buying an aircraft carrier from the Uk isnt really recommended because we will not have any suitable aircraft to operate from them.F-35 is a bad political choice although i heard the carriers were designed so that they can be converted into catobar and stobar.I realized mig29k cannot operate from catobar carriers but some modifications and it might be able to.Also those mig29k's should be upgraded into mig35 in the near future/
actually all fighters considered for navy is not ideal choice with some or the other drawbacks.
rather we should stick to lca for naval aviation.
for air superiority we could go for rafale navy version.
 

sandeepdg

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 5, 2009
Messages
2,333
Likes
227
since our IAC 2 is no earlier than 2018. we should look into the f-35. surely f-35 should be up for export by 2015-16.
mig 29s and lca for admiral gorskhov , sea gripens or sh 18 or lca for IAC 1 and f-35 for IAC 2.

in case the deal to buy AC from UK goes well , we shud buy more f-35.
Dude, the N-LCAs won't be ready by the time Gorshkov arrives. So, the only aircraft for the Gorshkov is the Mig 29k, that is the reason we are buying 45 of those. N-LCAs are for the IAC-1 and the N-MRCAs are probably for the IAC-2.
 

nitesh

Mob Control Manager
Senior Member
Joined
Feb 12, 2009
Messages
7,550
Likes
1,307
hmmmmm interesting:

US offers its latest fighter to India

New Delhi, Jan 12 (IANS) The US has offered to India yet another sophisticated defence system, this time its fifth generation F-35 Lightning-II fighter aircraft.
The “possible sale” of this aircraft, which is still under development, was mentioned in the past “if the Indian Air Force (IAF) purchased the F 16 Super Viper for its Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (M-MRCA) requirement.”

But according to a report in the coming issue of India Strategic defence magazine, Lockheed Martin, which manufactures these both aircraft, has now made a presentation without this condition to the Indian Navy for its carrier-borne aircraft requirements in about seven to eight years from now.

.
.
.
.
 

Rebelkid

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 10, 2010
Messages
453
Likes
24
US offers its latest fighter to India

US offers its latest fighter to India


New Delhi, Jan 12 (IANS) The US has offered to India yet another sophisticated defence system, this time its fifth generation F-35 Lightning-II fighter aircraft.
The “possible sale” of this aircraft, which is still under development, was mentioned in the past “if the Indian Air Force (IAF) purchased the F 16 Super Viper for its Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (M-MRCA) requirement.”

But according to a report in the coming issue of India Strategic defence magazine, Lockheed Martin, which manufactures these both aircraft, has now made a presentation without this condition to the Indian Navy for its carrier-borne aircraft requirements in about seven to eight years from now.

India Strategic quoted Orville Prins, Lockheed Martin’s vice president for business development, as saying that the presentation was made after a Request for Information (RFI) for newer generation of aircraft was received from the Indian Navy recently.

Prins pointed out though the company had been authorized by the US Department of Defense (DOD) to make the presentation, its sale could be done only after a bilateral agreement between Washington and New Delhi.

Arms and weapon systems are developed by private companies in the US with government funding, but the DoD controls their sales. Foreign military sales are undertaken after clearance from the Department of State.

The US is steadily emerging as a new supplier of sophisticated arms to India, which urgently needs to replace and augment its mostly outdated Soviet-vintage systems with the high technology weapons of the 21st century.

Only last month, India placed Letters of Request (LoRs), or firm orders, for 10 long-range strategic lift transport Boeing C 17 Globemaster III aircraft for the IAF and 145 Bofors ultra-light M 777 howitzers for mountain operations by the Indian Army.

Originally a Swedish company, Bofors was sold in 2000 to the US United Defense, and later to the US arm of BAE Systems. The Indian army is badly in need of various types of artillery guns and its acquisition process has been mired in one problem or another for years now.

According to Air Marshal Ashok Goel (Retd), India has less than 20 IL 76 heavy lift transport aircraft, and although they have served the IAF well, they would need to be replaced in about ten years or so. In April 2010, the IL squadrons with the IAF will mark their 25 years.

Prins said that Lockheed Martin was also offering the “the world’s most advanced ship-borne anti-missile system, Aegis, to India” and that presentation on this had also been made to the Indian Navy.

Apparently as a technology demonstration, the US had used the Aegis system to shoot down a satellite in February 2008 by firing a Raytheon SM-2 missile.

India has already acquired 12 artillery Weapon Locating Radars (WLRs) from Raytheon under a 2002 deal, which was actually the first arms transfer to India by the US after its embargos following India’s 1974 and 1998 nuclear tests.

In 2008, IAF placed orders for six Lockheed Martin C 130J Special Operations aircraft, with an option for six more along with training and infrastructure development package.

Prins said that the necessary transfer of equipment and training was under way and that delivery schedule for the aircraft will be adhered to as per the agreement.

The JSF is a fifth-generation aircraft, to be used by the US Air Force, Navy and Marines, and perhaps will be the last manned aircraft by that country before unmanned, high-powered long-range drones and helicopters fully take over the skies by the middle of this century.

Notably, India has already signed an agreement with Russia to develop a fifth generation fighter aircraft and it is due to be inducted into IAF by 2017. It is not known when and if this aircraft will have a naval variant.

:india: :india: :dfi-1: :dfi-1:
 

Quickgun Murugan

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 1, 2009
Messages
778
Likes
22
US weapons for India

The Tribune, Chandigarh, India - Opinions

THE India-US defence cooperation seems to be steadily growing with Washington now offering its latest Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) F-35 Lightning-II aircraft to India. But in the long run, there could be limitations over issues of transfer of technology (ToT) that India mandates now for major arms deals.

Representatives of Lockheed Martin, which is developing the aircraft, had indicated in the past that the aircraft could be available to India if the Indian Air Force (IAF) opted for the F-16 Super Viper in its quest for some 200 Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MRCAs) but recently the company made a presentation to the Indian Navy without this condition.

Lockheed Martin’s Vice President for Business Development Orville Prins told India Strategic defence magazine that the presentation about F 35 was made to the Indian Navy recently after it expressed interest in the newer generation of aircraft for its future carrier-based aircraft requirements.

Although the best of the weapon systems in the US are developed by private companies, the funding for their research and development is provided by the government, which exercises control on the resultant products and their sale to any foreign country. ToT is a serious issue and in most cases, technology, particularly source codes, is not shared even with Washington’s best allies in the West or the East.

Lockheed Martin apparently made the presentation to India after an authorisation by the US Department of Defense (DOD), but Prins pointed out that the F 35 could be sold only after clearance from the US State Department, for which bilateral negotiations between New Delhi and Washington would need to be held once India expressed its interest.

The US is steadily emerging as a new supplier of sophisticated arms to India, which urgently needs to replace and augment its mostly outdated Soviet-vintage systems with high technology weapons of the 21st century.

Beginning 2002, when an agreement for the sale of 12 Raytheon’s artillery and short-range missile tracker system, the AN/TPQ 37 Weapon Locating Radars (WLRs) was signed, the US has supplied systems worth nearly $ 4 billion.

The figure though is much lower than what India still spends on air, land and sea systems from Russia. For instance, India has already committed to buy 280 SU 30 MKI aircraft, several ships, missiles and more.

US companies are steadily making presentations in India, and the acquisition of WLRs has been followed by deals for Boeing P8-I Multimission Maritime Aircraft (MMA) for anti-submarine operations in the Indian Ocean, Harpoon anti-shipping missiles, Lockheed Martin’s six C 130J Special Operations aircraft with an option for six more, one amphibious transport dock ship Trenton, named INS Jalashwa, and its six onboard Sikorsky helicopters at nominal rates.

Over the last few weeks now, the Indian Ministry of Defence has sent firm orders, or Letters of Request (LoR) for 10 C 17 Globemaster III strategic lift aircraft for the Indian Air Force (IAF) and 145 Bofors M 777 ultra light howitzers the Indian Army badly needs for its mountain operations.

The competing gun from Singapore Technologies lost out as the company was mired in allegations of corruption in an Indian Ordnance Factory Board scam.

Originally, a Swedish company, Bofors, was purchased by the US United Defense in 2000, and later acquired by the US arm of BAE Systems. In fact, as the US Administration had imposed restrictions on the sale of military equipment to India after the 1998 nuclear tests, President Bill Clinton went out of the way to allow United Defense-Bofors an exception to sell its guns to India if the Indian Army opted for them.

The Indian Army is badly in need of various types of artillery guns, and keeping in mind the developments in the neighbourhood, the Indian government recently cleared the acquisition of this ultra light howitzer in a government-to-government deal under the US Foreign Military Sales (FMS) programme.

The gun has been deployed with excellent results in the rugged mountains of Afghanistan. Made with titanium alloys, the M777 is about 40 per cent lighter than a standard gun and can be easily transported under-slung by a helicopter.

Bofors has been much maligned in India due to the allegations of corruption in the sale of its 155 mm FH 77B guns in the mid-1980s. Operationally, however, these guns played a significant role in India ‘s victory in the 1999 Kargil War to evict Pakistani intruders from the Himalayan heights on the Indian side of the border.

India has also deployed the gun at the highest battlefield in the world at Siachin. Ferrying them to those daunting heights in parts and then assembling them has been a tedious job by itself for the Army.

LoRs for both the C17 and M777 have been issued only in the past couple of weeks. India has less than 20 IL 76 Soviet-supplied IL 76 aircraft, which will mark 25 years of their induction in April 2010.

The C 17 has nearly double the capacity of an IL 76 but full load on an aircraft is never really carried as it hinders its range and fuel capacity. Unlike the IL 76, the C 17 can be refuelled midair for much longer flights, and needs only two pilots and one loadmaster for operations, that is half the crew of what the IL 76 requires.

Despite its massive size, the C 17 can take off and land on unpaved grassy fields like a football ground at very steep angles, an important capability in battle conditions. It’s the same for C 130J. On offer is also Northrop Grumman’s Hawkeye E2-D, a battle management and electronic warfare aircraft that can operate from carriers or land.

Like the Boeing P8-I, this aircraft is also under development for the US Navy, and if the Indian Navy opts for it, then it would get this highly sophisticated technology at nearly the same time as the US Navy.

According to Orville Prins, Lockheed Martin had also given demonstrations on “the world’s most advanced shipboard anti-missile Aegis system,” which had been used two in 2008 to shoot down a satellite apparently as part of technology demonstration by Washington.

Boeing’s Integrated Defense Systems head for India, Dr Vivek Lall, describes this transfer as “unprecedented.” The US is steadily opening its stable of sophisticated weapons to India. But how far India goes in buying the US systems will largely depend not only on the technology and price offered, but also on the transfer of technology that most major deals now warrant as a policy.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Holy COWWWW... this is huge if true. Who in the blue hell wants ToT? Just the presence of F-35 means Indian dominance in the ocean and Indian Navy becoming a true blue water navy.

I don't understand Navy policy only. They were planning to make IAC 2 CATOBAR. But, if F-35 is all set, then IAC 2 is going to be hell lot simpler to construct.
 

StealthSniper

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2009
Messages
1,111
Likes
61
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Holy COWWWW... this is huge if true. Who in the blue hell wants ToT? Just the presence of F-35 means Indian dominance in the ocean and Indian Navy becoming a true blue water navy.

I don't understand Navy policy only. They were planning to make IAC 2 CATOBAR. But, if F-35 is all set, then IAC 2 is going to be hell lot simpler to construct.

Don't get to excited Quickgun, if you look at things more in depth and a clear mind we aren't really going to get much. Considering that USA is not even providing full TOT and source codes to it's most important allies like Britain and Australia we will definately get a downgraded, inferior, and very expensive aircraft that will come with additional strings attached. Nobody will be scared if India gets the F-35 because we probably will get sanctions or it won't work if we use it at China or Pakistan.

Plus considering that we are really good friends with Russia I highly doubt America is going to risk sending top quality electronics to India and jeopardize the billions they spent on designing and engineering work just for another export customer.
 

neo29

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 1, 2009
Messages
1,284
Likes
30
Definitely no ToT for the f-35 and with lots of strings attached to it.

f-35 is made by many countries and definitely will be used by many countries. It is advisable to buy any kind of defence hardware which is not used by many countries. that gives the hardware a uniqueness.
no wonder we make indian versions of hardware that we have purchased.
rather go for rafale naval version or fgfa/pak-fa naval version
 

Latest Replies

Global Defence

New threads

Articles

Top