Naval LCA Tejas

dude00720

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Simple question is, why is Navy Chief making such comments? What exactly is his purpose? Or, is it a preemptive strike to ensure, Govt does not pressurise him to accept NLCA-MK1.

I find it interesting that the arms lobbyists have hit back in this manner.
 

Hari Sud

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The outright rejection of Naval LCA (under development) throws one more competitor into the picture. It is the American F35B. Although, it has not been offered to India but noises have been made to this.

Americans will be willing to sell it to India, but it will not be under much touted successfully, make in India banner. Ready made planes could be picked at a high price from US after India pays in cash, no credit and signs CISMOA and host of other agreements.

F35 purchase just could not be a military decision, it is a political decision. Even hard and very sincere negotiations may not result in a deal. That will leave Navy with no planes for the second home made carrier. That will force the Navy to look inwards or mount a very public media campaign using "Yellow Journalists" to foul mouth Government for not buying the F35.

US has offered to sell F35, if it is fully developed after a trillion dollar expense, to closest of its US allies. They wish to protect their technology. India is neither is a great friend, nor an ally (public statements aside).

So where does this leads India after let us say five years of acquisition effort - back to square one I.e. to Naval LCA.

So my question to the Naval Chief, are you using pressure tactics or just politicking. May be it is better to work with LCA team and bring its Naval version to nearly what you want at third of the cost. Think.......
 

Kunal Biswas

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I am not sure whom he is referring to, Tejas in present form is a prototype and NOT committed as fully fledged combat aircraft which is true, And Navy will be looking out for NLCA and support it, All according to Admiral ..

Navy long wanted 5th generation fighters for its carriers.

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Quoting CAG report on MIG-29K.

The CAG report that audited the Navy's MiG-29 programme further said that the MiG 29K jet riddled with problems, including engine malfunction, even in the best case scenario, India's only fleet of naval combat aircraft suffer from repeated engine failures and multiple defects that have surfaced after operations from the Vikramaditya aircraft carrier, "will be fully fit for operations less than 50 percent of the time it is required to be deployed."

The MiG 29K, bought from Russia and inducted in 2010, has suffered repeated engine failures, with at least10 cases of single engine landings, a CAG report on the fleet has revealed. Out of 65 engines received from Russia, only 40 are in service due to these problems.
The outright rejection of Naval LCA (under development) throws one more competitor into the picture. It is the American F35B. Although, it has not been offered to India but noises have been made to this.

Americans will be willing to sell it to India, but it will not be under much touted successfully, make in India banner. Ready made planes could be picked at a high price from US after India pays in cash, no credit and signs CISMOA and host of other agreements.

F35 purchase just could not be a military decision, it is a political decision. Even hard and very sincere negotiations may not result in a deal. That will leave Navy with no planes for the second home made carrier. That will force the Navy to look inwards or mount a very public media campaign using "Yellow Journalists" to foul mouth Government for not buying the F35.

US has offered to sell F35, if it is fully developed after a trillion dollar expense, to closest of its US allies. They wish to protect their technology. India is neither is a great friend, nor an ally (public statements aside).

So where does this leads India after let us say five years of acquisition effort - back to square one I.e. to Naval LCA.

So my question to the Naval Chief, are you using pressure tactics or just politicking. May be it is better to work with LCA team and bring its Naval version to nearly what you want at third of the cost. Think.......
 

rohit b3

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The outright rejection of Naval LCA (under development) throws one more competitor into the picture. It is the American F35B. Although, it has not been offered to India but noises have been made to this.

Americans will be willing to sell it to India, but it will not be under much touted successfully, make in India banner. Ready made planes could be picked at a high price from US after India pays in cash, no credit and signs CISMOA and host of other agreements.

F35 purchase just could not be a military decision, it is a political decision. Even hard and very sincere negotiations may not result in a deal. That will leave Navy with no planes for the second home made carrier. That will force the Navy to look inwards or mount a very public media campaign using "Yellow Journalists" to foul mouth Government for not buying the F35.

US has offered to sell F35, if it is fully developed after a trillion dollar expense, to closest of its US allies. They wish to protect their technology. India is neither is a great friend, nor an ally (public statements aside).

So where does this leads India after let us say five years of acquisition effort - back to square one I.e. to Naval LCA.

So my question to the Naval Chief, are you using pressure tactics or just politicking. May be it is better to work with LCA team and bring its Naval version to nearly what you want at third of the cost. Think.......
If you want the F35B, why bother building an advanced STOBAR design like Vikrant or CATOBAR design like Vishal?
Might as well continued with a cheap STOVL design like Viraat.
A Mig29K or LCA mk2 would pack more power and will have a better operational range compared to a F35B.
 

Hari Sud

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If you want the F35B, why bother building an advanced STOBAR design like Vikrant or CATOBAR design like Vishal?
Might as well continued with a cheap STOVL design like Viraat.
A Mig29K or LCA mk2 would pack more power and will have a better operational range compared to a F35B.

That was point, except negotiate the deal first.
 

Pulkit

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As per the reports LCA Navy will be Technology Demonstrator for the AMCA.....
Is this the lame excuse used by DRDO ADA to hide there failures or not.....
 

Superdefender

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Navy has not abandoned LCA, Media misconstrued Navy Chief's Statement
Dec 03, 2016
Vijainder K Thakur


Chief of Naval Staff Admiral Sunil Lanba told the media on December 2, 2016 that the Indian Navy is scouting for another carrier operations compatible fighter besides the MiG-29, since LCA Navy lacks the payload required to be effective when operating from a carrier.

“The present LCA Navy does not meet the carrier capability which is required by the Navy. We will continue to support the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) and Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) in their efforts to develop a carrier-based fighter aircraft. At the same time we will seek aircraft elsewhere which can operate on the aircraft carrier,” Admiral Lanba told the media.

"In the present form, the LCA cannot take off with its full weapon load," the Navy Chief added.

With its proclivity to sensationalize, the Indian mainstream media projected the Chief's statement to imply that the Navy has ditched the LCA Navy project. Taking a cue, social media took the disinformation to puerile heights, alluding subversion of indigenous defense R&D by the military leadership of the country.

I feel there is an urgent need to put the Navy Chief's statement in the correct perspective. The Navy Chief did not say LCA Navy development is being abandoned.

The Navy's decision to procure a second carrier compatible fighter other than LCA Navy is prompted by the mismatch in the development of LCA Navy and the projected commissioning of IAC-1 (INS Vikrant) around 2023.

LCA Navy History
The Indian Government sanctioned Full Scale Engineering Development (FSED) of Naval Light Combat Aircraft (LCA-Navy), capable of operating from an aircraft carrier, on March 28, 2003 with a PDC of March 27, 2010.

Subsequently, as a result of the failure of the Kaveri project and a weight spiral LCA performance fell below expectations. In 2008, the IAF, the MoD and the ADA agreed that LCA does not meet critical IAF QRs - Power to Weight Ratio, Sustained Turn Rate and Maximum speeds at low altitudes. The performance shortfalls would be addressed by developing a follow-up LCA variant fitted with the more powerful GE F414 engine. LCA Mk2 was sanctioned in November 2009 with PDC of December 2018.

With LCA Mk1 falling short on critical IAF QRs, LCA Navy, which would be much heavier on account of its strengthened undercarriage, had no chance of meeting the Navy's more stringent QRs for deck operations. It was evident that LCA Navy would have to be based on LCA Mk2.

However, since LCA Mk1 & Mk2 would be similar in design, in order to save time it was decided to start developing LCA Navy technologies using LCA Mk1 as testbed.

The LCA Navy project was recast as a two phased development program. In Phase 1, ADA would use prototypes built in LCA Mk1 configuration (powered by GE-F-404-IN20 with a max thrust of 17,700 lbs.) to develop arrested landing and ski jump take-off technology. In Phase 2, ADA would use prototype aircraft built in the Tejas Mk2 configuration (powered by GE-414-INS6 engine with a max thrust of 22,000 lbs.) to certify LCA Navy for carrier operations.



Navy Hedges its Bet on LCA Navy
The recasting of LCA Navy program notwithstanding, IN decided to hedge its bet on the successful development of the aircraft, in order to ensure that its current and future aircraft carriers embarked lethal fighters. In November 2009, the Navy prudently issued an RFI (request for information) to several global aviation majors, including American Boeing, French Dassault and Russian MiG companies, for ‘an alternate deck-based aircraft.’

LCA Navy Development Delays
A Navy fighter has to be designed and built for carrier operation from the ground up, not as an afterthought, as is the case with LCA Navy. When the LCA project was initially sanctioned, the aircraft was not conceived to be a Navy fighter.

Strengthening the LCA for carrier operations proved to be a nightmare for ADA. Embarked aircraft are required to perform flare less landings with a high sink rate of 7.1 rn/sec. To meet the requirement, LCA Navy undercarriage became grotesquely over-sized. Part of the problem was the positioning of the undercarriage in the fuselage. Aircraft designed for carrier operations generally have the undercarriage in their wing roots.

(Compare the u/c of LCA Navy Mk-1 above with that of the Tejas LCA below. The former looks oversized, the latter, elegant.)




Tejas LCA at Aero India 2015

The strengthened u/c added weight and lowered the aircraft's performance much more than initially expected.

The LCA Navy would have to embark on INS Vikrant (IAC-1) much before its scheduled commissioning in 2023.

LCA Navy, in its present form, cannot be operationally deployed on INS Vikrant - it's very limited weapon load, range and performance wouldn't justify such deployment. This is what the Navy Chief said!

LCA Navy Not Abandoned
At Aero India 2015, the author asked the then LCA Navy Project Director Commodore CD Balaji (He is now ADA chief) if LCA Navy in its present form could operationally be deployed on a carrier, were the LCA Navy Mk-2 project to be delayed.

"LCA Navy Mk-2 will not be delayed," said Balaji with a lot of confidence. "We are close to freezing its design, which has been simplified. The new design would be easy to implement."

Commodore Balaji's confidence was eye-opening - The biggest pay-off from the LCA Navy project may well be ADA's increasing confidence in its ability to tweak fighter aircraft design to squeeze out better performance. This is evident from the following:

LCA Navy Mk-2 has been designed from the ground up as a Navy fighter, independently of Tejas LCA Mk-2.

The fuselage of the aircraft has been broadened and the wing roots moved outwards. As a result, aircraft design has been optimized for supersonic flight with perfect conformance to area rule. (Tejas LCA and LCA Navy Mk-1 do not conform perfectly to area ruling resulting in high supersonic drag.)

Mid-section fuselage broadening allows undercarriage bays to be shifted outwards, allowing a simpler, straight and light undercarriage as in the Rafale.

Mid-section fuselage broadening also increases fuel capacity.

That is three birds with one stone!

The following design layout of LCA Mk-2 from a brochure distributed during Aero India 2015 clarifies what I have stated above about the design tweaks.






Conclusion

What the Navy Chief said on December 2, 2016 did not signal a change in plans. He merely reiterated what the Navy had planned since the sanctioning of the LCA Navy project. If the LCA Navy is not ready on time, the Navy will seek a second carrier based fighter from the global market.

The Navy will continue to support development of LCA Navy. With a former naval officer helming ADA, it wouldn't expect it to be otherwise.

It's unusual for a Navy to have two types of carrier based aircraft, except when one is being phased out on account of obsolescence. It is possible that the Navy's quest for a second carrier fighter stems from shortcomings with MiG-29K operations. It could also be a way of pressurizing Russia to come good with its support for the aircraft.

Source Link: https://www.myind.net/navy-has-not-abandoned-lca-media-misconstrued-navy-chiefs-statement
 

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Filtercoffee

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CNS is only pressurising ADA-HAL to stop giving step-motherly treatment to NLCA and start giving it equal importance as MK-1A.It's about time ADA-HAL changes its attitude.
Sir I was wondering if there is a possibility of further sabotage of overt projects as they were planned in very hard circumstances? Also what is the new trend of jumpers these days?
 

Rahul Singh

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Sir I was wondering if there is a possibility of further sabotage of overt projects as they were planned in very hard circumstances? Also what is the new trend of jumpers these days?
A possibility can't be ruled out but Navy has a different reputation to follow. I don't see it changing overnight. But one possibility is that current CNS may be a different man. Don't know so won't say.
 

HarshBardhan

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It is so dissapointing that any sort of indigenous development is received with flaks,be it INSAS,Arjun MBT ,HAL Marut and now LCA. Small steps can only develop our weapons industry. Even M16 rifle was a failure at beginning.
 

SajeevJino

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It is so dissapointing that any sort of indigenous development is received with flaks,be it INSAS,Arjun MBT ,HAL Marut and now LCA. Small steps can only develop our weapons industry. Even M16 rifle was a failure at beginning.
FAILURE is a key to sucess ...But problem is delay and failure makes us in toruble
 

navkapu

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Navy does not have a history of Projects they invest in ........ wait and watch
 

Alok Arya

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Correct for Tejas, Though keep away comparison sake debate out of this thread..
Thanks for reply sir . Comparison would not come . One question sir can you confirm radar antenna diameter for rafale. Please Kunal sir .
 

HariPrasad-1

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Navy chief Sunil Lanba says Tejas LCA ( naval ) not up to mark yet, search on for another fighter jet


Indian Navy chief Admiral Sunil Lanba here today said the indigenous Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) is “not up to the mark”, due to which they are searching another fighter aircraft for carrier operations within the next five years. Lanba said the navy will seek a fighter aircraft from elsewhere, while it is still encouraging India’s Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) to develop the Naval LCA. “The MiG-29K will operate from the Vikrant (first Indian built aircraft carrier). But we also need an alternate aircraft now. We are looking for it, as the LCA is not up to the mark yet. In the present form, the LCA cannot take off with its full weapon load,” said the Navy chief, adding that within the next five years a new fighter aircraft will be needed for carrier operations. In another major development, Lanba revealed that a nuclear submarine of China’s People’s Liberation Army Navy was deployed and did a port call at Karachi. “There has been no intrusion by Chinese vessels in Indian territorial waters in Andaman and Nicobar Islands. But we have our eyes on them (Chinese Navy),” said Lanba. Meanwhile, the Navy chief said the force is planning to acquire autonomous sub-surface assets and ship-based Unmanned Aerial Vehicles (UAVs). On the Scorpene submarine leak, Lanba said India will setup a joint group with France. “We will see if have to make changes on the platforms. But the leaked data dates to the pre-2010 period. It does not have details on the armament. There is no critical leak,” he said, adding additional submarines are also being looked at.
May be LSA. It will be the best plane for carrier.
 

wuzetian

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Will naval Tejas be modified to have foldable wings like Mig-29k for carrier operations?
 

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