NATO Expansion: Threat to World Peace

happy

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Russians started this madness, it's simple. Up to this day we don't have any functional ABM installations, yet Russians still have nukes near our borders. So you know what? ---- it, we will have our ABM installations, and Russia can't do anything about it. It's our territory, our alliance, our decision, not their or yours.
Well, please do study the effect of a nuclear detonation.... If Russia drops nukes on your country....won't it effect Russia as well ?? Will the world sit by and let any one country get away with bombing the others ?? It will mark the end of civilization as we know it. I don't know why you are carrying the US fears on your shoulders...because, the US certainly has to fear Russian nukes and take appropriate counter measures. But thinking Russia won't be affected by nuclear bombing your country or any other of it's immediate neighbors is total bs and paranoia / marketing of US weapons at most.



Russia use nukes, gas, oil, it's military to control it's neighbours, bully them to benefit. When it's neighbours start to behave independently by changing source of gas and oil, improving it's military defences, then Kremlin starts to panic.
Who doesn't? China does that....US does that....India does that to some extent....Everybody who has power does it. But, by installing US BMDs in your country, do you get that power ?? Introspect please.

If Kremlin is really panicking, why aren't the sanctions taking any affect? Why is Germany stonewalling any serious action against Russia. Introspect again.

But guess what, all these nations here, don't want to be inside Russian influance sphere, we want to be in NATO, and this is our decision not your or Russia's, so stop saying us what is good for us or not.
If you think that only those countries feel so, I pity you. No country/no person will willingly be submissive to any other. It is foolish to think otherwise.


The ABM system is incapable to stop full scale ICBM attack, everyone knows that. But ABM system is capable to stop small scale attacks, that's the point. Russians don't like the concept because they won't be able to bully us.
Well, you got a point there. But still, I don't see why Russia would want to nuke you on even a small scale when it has a host of other means to continually intimidate you. For example, if Russia masses it's military at your border, will NATO be able to stop an invasion?

No, that they can kiss their asses, we will do what we wish to do on our territory, our land. We are sovereign and if we decide we want to be in NATO, EU, we want close and strong alliance with USA this is our decision, and nobody, including you or Russian goverment, won't will tell us what we should do.
As you wish. We do not have any intention to kiss anybodies a$$.


You don't deserve good language. Only people that use logic, their brain deserve for that, not people like you, not tolerating that nations can have a very different view on their affairs than you.
You form your opinion just because I oppose your view. If you are not able to tolerate and put your knowledge into words, am I to blame ? Yet, to maintain forum decorum, you are requested to control your language. Previously, I too was easily offended. But now, I learned to control. I would advise you to do the same to maintain a healthy discussion.

Look at all these nations from former Soviet influance zone, all of these nations wanted to be in NATO, to be under US protectorate and be as far from Russia as possible.
Everybody have their own selfish goals. No country is an exception. To further their goals and to gain legitimacy they indulge in mud slinging. You should learn to decipher between words.

Oh, look, how touchy he is... sissy.
Please refrain from further personal comments.

You don't need to talk with me, and I don't feel any need to talk with you, or respect someone who inslut my state, my country, my nation and our neighbours that stand against Russia, or our allies.
I have not insulted your country or yourself. I just question the legitimacy of the claims you make to justify your actions. I am not forcing you to reply.
 

Damian

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That's my last answer to your idiotic posts.

Well, please do study the effect of a nuclear detonation.... If Russia drops nukes on your country....won't it effect Russia as well ?? Will the world sit by and let any one country get away with bombing the others ?? It will mark the end of civilization as we know it. I don't know why you are carrying the US fears on your shoulders...because, the US certainly has to fear Russian nukes and take appropriate counter measures. But thinking Russia won't be affected by nuclear bombing your country or any other of it's immediate neighbors is total bs and paranoia / marketing of US weapons at most.
We know Russian goverment and what it is capable to do much better than you.

Besides this why you are so against marketing US weapons? WHat you are some sort of a damn pacifist hippie?

Who doesn't? China does that....US does that....India does that to some extent....Everybody who has power does it. But, by installing US BMDs in your country, do you get that power ?? Introspect please.
Sure, but USA does not bully us, you see the difference? We will not aid these who bully us, neither USA neither EU bully us, Russia does. So we shows these assholes in Kremlin proper finger.

If you think that only those countries feel so, I pity you. No country/no person will willingly be submissive to any other. It is foolish to think otherwise.
It's typical for people outside NATO that they don't understand even the basic concept and principles of NATO... and I don't really care.

Well, you got a point there. But still, I don't see why Russia would want to nuke you on even a small scale when it has a host of other means to continually intimidate you. For example, if Russia masses it's military at your border, will NATO be able to stop an invasion?
Russia in terms of conventional arms is weak compared to NATO... christ Russians have even less tanks these days than NATO, USA alone have more tanks than Russia today, count other weapon systems like the whole AFV's fleet, airplanes fleets, navy vessels fleets! Not to mention how modern they are compared to our equipment. In military terms, Russia can be dangerous to NATO only with their WMD's, nothing else. And that's the real problem, if Russia would not have WMD's, nobody would care, the line would be very, very clear where Russian zone of influance is, and where it is not, and you would see how many other countries would just show them a middle finger.

Because seriously, Russia have nothing to offer to these countries, neither when it comes to economics, living standard, culture, there is one big nothing.

As you wish. We do not have any intention to kiss anybodies a$$.
It's not about kissing someones ass, but about making own decisions... but hey, in the end of day, it will be Indians with such attitude that will be alone, because hey, why not? You can insult everyone on this planet, it's nothing new knowing Indians xenophobic attidute, but don't later scream for help if one will be needed.

You form your opinion just because I oppose your view. If you are not able to tolerate and put your knowledge into words, am I to blame ? Yet, to maintain forum decorum, you are requested to control your language. Previously, I too was easily offended. But now, I learned to control. I would advise you to do the same to maintain a healthy discussion.
I don't tolerate morons that think they know better than us how our own affairs look like and what we should do. You want India to be alone, fine, I don't care, but if you are so tolerant, give other, also Ukrainians freedom to choose. Nobody forced any current NATO member to be in NATO, it was allways sovereign decision, and many times not mae only by goverments, but also by majority of nations.

And you know what? NATO actually helps, when I compare military standards of the former SU and NATO military standards, it' like hell and heaven. My father served in the military during old times when we were de fact occupied by SU, it was hell, poor standards, poor training, poor everything, and now I being close to military and waiting for my own basic course to join military, I see the damn difference. A simple standard of living for soldiers is higher, equipment is better, training is better, even these damn missions in Iraq and Afghanistan gave our military nececary experience and also opportunity to cooperate with other NATO members in real combat conditions, so the situation improved even more, and it's improves year after year.

Our own military industry can actually do something right now, not like in the old times, when Soviets literally blocked many projects of our engineers in fear that "inferiors will surpass the allmighty soviet industry!".

So what I see is only betterment of our situation, as majority of population does.

Everybody have their own selfish goals. No country is an exception. To further their goals and to gain legitimacy they indulge in mud slinging. You should learn to decipher between words.
Of course, so our (medium and smaller states of the region) selfish goals is to have Russia as far away from us as possible, even conomic ties does not helps because Russia ultimately uses them to bully us. Currently in the long term for my country for example, would be to invest more money and start purchasing gas or oil from Norway or USA than further purchase gas from Russia with these completely insane prices, and hey, we still don't pay the most, Ukrainians pay even more, and their economy is in terrible state, and these gas prices are nothing more than bullying because Ukrainians dared to choose their own path, not that one made from behind Kremlin walls.

I have not insulted your country or yourself. I just question the legitimacy of the claims you make to justify your actions.
Yes you did insulted. By claiming that we are paranoid and such kind of nonsense. In the same time you don't live here, you don't see how Russians are trying every trick they have to recreate their zone of influance, even if their neighbours don't want that and wish to be in NATO or EU.

But the biggest problem is, that Russian goverment don't understand a very simple thing, most of it's neihbours here in eastern and central Europe, does not have any real cultural connection to Russia. For example we western Slavs like Poles, Czechs, Slovaks, our languages are very different than Russian, our culture is typical western culture not Russian, it was builded around catholic or protestant christianity not orthodox, and we don't feel any kind of fraternity with them. In fact there is no such thing as Slavic fraternity, it's just imagination of some insane pseudo scientists like Alexandr Dugin.

Funny fact is that even Ukrainians are not eastern or western purely, there are something in between, and it seems they choosen right now to take a different path to their future, path that perhaps gives them better prosperity, higher life standard. I was allways amazed how Ukrainians from western Ukraine, that seen Poland, say we are damn rich country, where life standards are high, and for them we are example that different path, where Russia does not dictate how we should live, is a better one!

And you know what? They are god damn right! I compared images of Poland in 1980's and 1990's, and later these from XXI century, to the current images of Ukraine, Bellarus even Russia. Our towns are cleaner, more friendly, we have better roads, the old commie times blockhouses are slowly replaced by new neighbourhoods with modern nicely looking blockhouses or even neighbourhoods with nice small one family houses. And I have first hand comparision, I lived in these old soviet style blocks and now I live in my family house and god damn I am happy that Russia does not interfere with our own internal affairs as it was in the past. And I wish Ukrainians, Bellarussians, and damn even Russians themselfs, that one day, they finally hang these bastards they are rulled by on trees, for how much they ----ed up their lifes and how much these bastards on Kremlin ----ed up relations between normal people.

This is the truth.
 

happy

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That's my last answer to your idiotic posts.
Thanks...morons will always be just that...MORONS

We know Russian goverment and what it is capable to do much better than you.
We know that...how you were effed up.

Besides this why you are so against marketing US weapons? WHat you are some sort of a damn pacifist hippie?

Sure, but USA does not bully us, you see the difference? We will not aid these who bully us, neither USA neither EU bully us, Russia does. So we shows these assholes in Kremlin proper finger.
"By the grace of God, America won the Cold War," Bush said during his 1992 State of the Union address. That rhetoric would not have been particularly damaging on its own. But it was reinforced by actions taken under the next three presidents.

President Bill Clinton supported NATO's bombing of Serbia without U.N. Security Council approval and the expansion of NATO to include former Warsaw Pact countries. Those moves seemed to violate the understanding that the United States would not take advantage of the Soviet retreat from Eastern Europe.
Who is the bully? The U.S. has treated Russia like a loser since the end of the Cold War. - The Washington Post

Mr. Clinton, saying that a ''gray zone of insecurity must not reemerge in Europe,'' urged Russia to view NATO's enlargement to former Warsaw Pact countries as an arrangement that will ''advance the security of everyone.'' And he told the American public that the expansion cannot be made ''on the cheap.''

''Enlargement will mean extending the most solemn security guarantees to our allies -- a new commitment to treat an attack on one as an attack on all,'' the President said
Clinton Urges NATO Expansion in 1999 - NYTimes.com
It's typical for people outside NATO that they don't understand even the basic concept and principles of NATO... and I don't really care.
Don't you sound like a total idiot now? From where do morons come ??

Russia in terms of conventional arms is weak compared to NATO... christ Russians have even less tanks these days than NATO, USA alone have more tanks than Russia today, count other weapon systems like the whole AFV's fleet, airplanes fleets, navy vessels fleets! Not to mention how modern they are compared to our equipment. In military terms, Russia can be dangerous to NATO only with their WMD's, nothing else. And that's the real problem, if Russia would not have WMD's, nobody would care, the line would be very, very clear where Russian zone of influance is, and where it is not, and you would see how many other countries would just show them a middle finger.
Then why are you shitting left and right that Kremlin will attack you? Don't know if US will keep pumping dollars into your economy or not if you don't keep up the rhetoric?

Because seriously, Russia have nothing to offer to these countries, neither when it comes to economics, living standard, culture, there is one big nothing.
Comments of a looser...

Yes you did insulted. By claiming that we are paranoid and such kind of nonsense. In the same time you don't live here, you don't see how Russians are trying every trick they have to recreate their zone of influance, even if their neighbours don't want that and wish to be in NATO or EU.
I was speaking about your countries NATO policy. If you take that as a personal insult...what can I do? Btw, it helps to see from afar the situation prevailing in your region as we are not biased.

But the biggest problem is, that Russian goverment don't understand a very simple thing, most of it's neihbours here in eastern and central Europe, does not have any real cultural connection to Russia. For example we western Slavs like Poles, Czechs, Slovaks, our languages are very different than Russian, our culture is typical western culture not Russian, it was builded around catholic or protestant christianity not orthodox, and we don't feel any kind of fraternity with them. In fact there is no such thing as Slavic fraternity, it's just imagination of some insane pseudo scientists like Alexandr Dugin.
So what?

Funny fact is that even Ukrainians are not eastern or western purely, there are something in between, and it seems they choosen right now to take a different path to their future, path that perhaps gives them better prosperity, higher life standard. I was allways amazed how Ukrainians from western Ukraine, that seen Poland, say we are damn rich country, where life standards are high, and for them we are example that different path, where Russia does not dictate how we should live, is a better one!
In your paranoia (your countries as well) against Russia, you want Ukraine to split up so bad.

This is the truth.
This is your version of the truth. Al vida !!
 

Damian

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Don't you sound like a total idiot now? From where do morons come ??
Nope, because what Clinton said was completely in line with our own desire to separate from Russia and join NATO.

Why you can't just understand and accept this simple fact?

Yeah, I know from where morons come, from country which name is starting on I.

Then why are you shitting left and right that Kremlin will attack you? Don't know if US will keep pumping dollars into your economy or not if you don't keep up the rhetoric?
Maybe because we contrary to Indians, actually know what war means? Unnececary deaths, damage to economy, infrastructure? Nobody sane will risk a war, this is why invest so much recently in our own defences. Russia allready annected part of Ukraine's territory, who says that in next decade they won't annect balltic states?

Not to mention moron, that Poland actually, does not receive any serious financial support from USA, because we don't need it. Our economy is actually one of the better functioning ones in EU.

The rest of this BS is not even worth commenting. You have nothing to say besides some pathethic slogans.
 

happy

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Nope, because what Clinton said was completely in line with our own desire to separate from Russia and join NATO.

Why you can't just understand and accept this simple fact?
Where is the fact ?? I don't see any.

Yeah, I know from where morons come, from country which name is starting on I.
Oh, good. I am of the opinion that they come from a country with P and their name starts with D....:p

Maybe because we contrary to Indians, actually know what war means?
And since your independence, how many wars did you fight ??? NONE !!!

Unnececary deaths, damage to economy, infrastructure? Nobody sane will risk a war, this is why invest so much recently in our own defences. Russia allready annected part of Ukraine's territory, who says that in next decade they won't annect balltic states?
Why do your statements always contradict each other?

Not to mention moron, that Poland actually, does not receive any serious financial support from USA, because we don't need it. Our economy is actually one of the better functioning ones in EU.
Guess who is the moron ???

The pristine metal and glass laboratories and landscaped lawns of the Olsztyn Science and Technology Park are a shiny emblem of Poland's transition from communist state to European Union member, at least on appearance.

Paid for with EU aid, the $23 million development 200 kilometers (124 miles) north of Warsaw opened in November to attract startup companies. Yet with two smaller science parks already close to the northeastern Polish town, half of the space remains empty in a region with among the highest poverty rates in Europe and where more people are leaving than arriving.
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Halfway through a 229 billion-euro ($317 billion) EU aid package, more than the entire Marshall Plan for postwar Europe in today's dollars, the money kept the Polish economy growing when the rest of the continent went into recession. The new business parks, highways, soccer stadiums and airport terminals also mask how for many Poles the passage to prosperity is still to come, with 17 percent of families of four living on less than $400 a month.

Poorest Regions

After two decades of uninterrupted growth, International Monetary Fund figures show gross domestic product per capita adjusted for the cost of living caught up more quickly with the EU average than in Hungary or the Czech Republic, also among the 10 nations absorbed by the eastward expansion.

Yet, in Poland it remains at about 62 percent of the average, surpassing Hungary, though still below the Czechs. Five of the EU's 20 poorest regions are in Poland.

Unemployment is 13.5 percent. While that's half the rate of crisis-hit Greece, it's higher than Ireland, whose economy shrank for four of the last six years and remains a destination for many young Poles. Among those working, more than 1 million earn less than 5 zloty ($1.66) an hour.

Red Tape

Tymicka blames the red tape involved with accessing the money for smaller businesses, even in a country used to four decades of communist-era bureaucracy.

Poland ranks 45th in the World Bank's latest Doing Business report covering 189 countries, placing it in the top 25 percent. When it comes to starting a business, it slips down to 116th, beneath Ivory Coast and Yemen.
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The Marshall Plan for European recovery was $150 billion in current money, though Poland didn't get a cent because it was part of the Russian-dominated eastern bloc as the military conflict gave way to the Cold War. It was the revolutions of 1989 that put it on the road to EU accession. Now you know why you didn' receive any US aid.
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At least 2.5 million Poles departed the country over the past decade, with 300,000 later returning, according to the Central Statistics Office in Warsaw. About half a million Poles left last year, the largest emigration wave after the exodus immediately after Poles became EU citizens, based on a study by Krystyna Iglicka, a professor of demography in Warsaw who looked at labor markets in western Europe. The average age of those who quit the country in search of jobs and prosperity is 32, the statistics office said.

'No-Brainer'

Only 17 percent of Poles wouldn't consider emigrating for work, according to a survey by the Milford Brown Institute. Among Poles younger than 34, the group shrank to 8 percent. "This is no surprise," said Tymicka, whose son, Zorian, 19, plans to leave as soon as he finishes high school. "Emigration has become sort of no-brainer for young Poles."

More than 600,000 went to Britain, where the latest census data gathered from Warsaw showed Polish women are now twice more likely to have children than in their native country.

In Skajboty, a village 15 kilometers from Olsztyn in the heart of Poland's Land of Thousand Lakes where storks and eagles swoop around the forests and waterways, Ewa Legierzynska is resigned to losing another child to the migration wave.

Of her five daughters, four quit the village, with two leaving the country, and the fifth girl will most likely follow her sisters. "Regardless of how beautiful the area is, life here has no prospects," said Legierzynska, 66.

Giving Children

One of her daughters is now based in Brussels and another in Berlin, while two live in Gdansk, in northern Poland.

"We are located at the end of the world, but we give our children to the world, so the world will eventually find out about us," she said. In the neighboring house, 11 children left Skajboty for Ireland and Scotland.

Rafal Mikulowski, 53, returned to Poland two decades after leaving for France as a child in 1969. He settled near Olsztyn, where he runs a foundation that uses art to educate children. He said the exodus resembles the aftermath of a catastrophe.

"The usual reasons for large waves of emigration are war, famine and natural disasters," said Mikulowski. "We freed the country, we strengthened democracy and we even evaded recession, yet all the young people from around here have either left or talk about nothing else but leaving. I doubt anyone will be left to use those parks built with the EU money."

Few people in the country understand that more than those the region of Olsztyn, where GDP per capita is 46 percent of the EU average. The unemployment (POUER) rate is as high as 34 percent in some parts. The region received 1.5 billion euros of EU funds since 2004, excluding subsidies for farmers.

"If you tell me that some foreign investors view Poland as a success story, then I'm just stunned," said Tymicka. What an eye opener for you @damian from your own !!

More help is on the way. In January, the EU concluded its 2014-2020 budget, pledging a total of 115 billion euros in aid for Poland, including 32 billion euros for agriculture.

More Cash

The country will remain the largest beneficiary of EU funds until the end of this decade, which should help it join the top 20 global economies by 2022, Prime Minister Donald Tusk said at the time. The country's GDP by then probably will reach 80 percent of the EU average and at least 1.5 million Poles will exit poverty, said Tusk, in power since 2007.

Polish $300 Billion Aid Package Hides EU Expansion Flaws - Bloomberg
Don't worry, your secret is safe with me....;)

The rest of this BS is not even worth commenting. You have nothing to say besides some pathethic slogans.
Aha !!!
 

jouni

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After Ukraine crisis NATO will change strategies. Germany, France, UK and Poland will take stronger role in European defense. Role of US will diminish in Europe, it will concentrate more to Asia Pacific area. This is good NATO will come more regional power with closer ties to EU. The last ghosts of WWII will go away and Germany will be the dominant power inside EU. After that also Finland and Sweden will join NATO. EU will give strong support to Ukraine and also invite Russia to joint human, technological and economical development programs. It is also possible that name NATO will be replaced by ETO and USCTO who will work closely together.
 
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happy

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After Ukraine crisis NATO will change strategies. Germany, France, UK and Poland will take stronger role in European defense. Role of US will diminish in Europe, it will concentrate more to Asia Pacific area. This is good NATO will come more regional power with closer ties to EU. The last ghosts of WWII will go away and Germany will be the dominant power inside EU. After that also Finland and Sweden will join NATO. EU will give strong support to Ukraine and also invite Russia to joint human, technological and economical development programs. It is also possible that name NATO will be replaced by ETO and USCTO who will work closely together.
The purpose of NATO is TO BE A REGIONAL POWER from the beginning. I don't think that US role will be in any way diminished. If it does, then the overall effectiveness of NATO also diminishes with it.

What is USCTO ??
 

jouni

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The purpose of NATO is TO BE A REGIONAL POWER from the beginning. I don't think that US role will be in any way diminished. If it does, then the overall effectiveness of NATO also diminishes with it.

What is USCTO ??
United States and Canada Treaty Organization. Nato effectiveness will be based on EU members raising their defense budgets, not rely solely on US power.
 

happy

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No permanent NATO bases in Poland?

"I do not think summit documents use the term "permanent military presence," Defence Minister Tomasz Siemoniak has told the Rzeczpospolita daily, after months of lobbying by Poland for a NATO base following war in eastern Ukraine.

In April, Foreign Minister Radoslaw Sikorski said he would be happy with "two heavy brigades" of NATO troops on Polish soil.

Many NATO members, however, fear that a permanent NATO base in Poland could provoke Russia.

"Some allies see the word "permanent" as a liability," Defence Minister Siemoniak says.

"It's better that troops come to us and train with our troops, rather than sitting around in barracks," he added.

The US announced last week that 600 soldiers from the Fort Hood, Texas-based 1st Brigade, 1st Cavalry Division, will be going to Poland as the next unit to participate in training exercises, which began in April this year.

UK and Canadian troops will also be taking part in the training exercises in Poland and Baltic states.

It appears that Poland is lowering its ambitions from permanent military bases with troops to logistical centres.

"We hope that a decision will be taken on the creation of a logistics centre for equipment and other provisions for Alliance members stationed in Poland as well as the Baltic States," head of Poland's National Security Bureau, General Stanislaw Koziej told Polish Radio at the weekend.

The NATO summit will be held in Newport, Wales, on 4 and 5 September.

- See more at: No permanent NATO bases in Poland? - Thenews.pl :: News from Poland

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Seems like cold water thrown on the hot dreams of @Damian & @militarysta, eh ??:pound:
 
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HMS Astute

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2014 NATO Summit Wales, United Kingdom

On 4 to 5 September 2014, Wales will host the largest gathering of international leaders ever to take place in Britain as the UK hosts the NATO summit. President Obama, Chancellor Merkel, and President Hollande are expected to attend along with leaders and senior ministers from around 60 other countries.

The summit comes as NATO draws down from its longest ever mission in Afghanistan and against a backdrop of instability in Ukraine. It is an opportunity to ensure that NATO continues to be at the forefront of building stability in an unpredictable world.

Nearly 10,000 police officers are being drafted in to cover next month's Nato summit in Wales, an event described by the officer in charge of the security operation as "completely uncharted territory" for UK policing.

https://www.gov.uk/government/topical-events/nato-summit-wales-cymru-2014















 

amoy

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A Broken Promise?
What the West Really Told Moscow About NATO Expansion
Mary Elise Sarotte | The Real Story Behind NATO Expansion | Foreign Affairs


By Mary Elise Sarotte FROM OUR SEPTEMBER/OCTOBER 2014 ISSUE


No backsies: Gorbachev and Bush at the White House, June 1990. (AP / Ron Edmonds)

Twenty-five years ago this November, an East German Politburo member bungled the announcement of what were meant to be limited changes to travel regulations, thereby inspiring crowds to storm the border dividing East and West Berlin. The result was the iconic moment marking the point of no return in the end of the Cold War: the fall of the Berlin Wall. In the months that followed, the United States, the Soviet Union, and West Germany engaged in fateful negotiations over the withdrawal of Soviet troops and the reunification of Germany. Although these talks eventually resulted in German reunification on October 3, 1990, they also gave rise to a later, bitter dispute between Russia and the West. What, exactly, had been agreed about the future of NATO? Had the United States formally promised the Soviet Union that the alliance would not expand eastward as part of the deal?

Even more than two decades later, the dispute refuses to go away. Russian diplomats regularly assert that Washington made just such a promise in exchange for the Soviet troop withdrawal from East Germany -- and then betrayed that promise as NATO added 12 eastern European countries in three subsequent rounds of enlargement. Writing in this magazine earlier this year, the Russian foreign policy thinker Alexander Lukin accused successive U.S. presidents of "forgetting the promises made by Western leaders to Mikhail Gorbachev after the unification of Germany -- most notably that they would not expand NATO eastward." Indeed, Russian President Vladimir Putin's aggressive actions in Georgia in 2008 and Ukraine in 2014 were fueled in part by his ongoing resentment about what he sees as the West's broken pact over NATO expansion. But U.S. policymakers and analysts insist that such a promise never existed. In a 2009 Washington Quarterly article, for example, the scholar Mark Kramer assured readers not only that Russian claims were a complete "myth" but also that "the issue never came up during the negotiations on German reunification."

Now that increasing numbers of formerly secret documents from 1989 and 1990 have made their way into the public domain, historians can shed new light on this controversy. The evidence demonstrates that contrary to the conventional wisdom in Washington, the issue of NATO's future in not only East Germany but also eastern Europe arose soon after the Berlin Wall opened, as early as February 1990. U.S. officials, working closely with West German leaders, hinted to Moscow during negotiations that month that the alliance might not expand, not even to the eastern half of a soon-to-be-reunited Germany.

Documents also show that the United States, with the help of West Germany, soon pressured Gorbachev into allowing Germany to reunify, without making any kind of written promise about the alliance's future plans. Put simply, there was never a formal deal, as Russia alleges -- but U.S. and West German officials briefly implied that such a deal might be on the table, and in return they received a "green light" to commence the process of German reunification. The dispute over this sequence of events has distorted relations between Washington and Moscow ever since.

Contrary to Russian allegations, there was never a formal deal about NATO expansion.

GETTING THE GREEN LIGHT

Western leaders quickly realized that the fall of the Berlin Wall had brought seemingly long-settled issues of European security once again into play. By the beginning of 1990, the topic of NATO's future role was coming up frequently during confidential conversations among U.S. President George H. W. Bush; James Baker, the U.S. secretary of state; Helmut Kohl, the West German chancellor; Hans-Dietrich Genscher, the West German foreign minister; and Douglas Hurd, the British foreign minister.

According to documents from the West German foreign ministry, for example, Genscher told Hurd on February 6 that Gorbachev would want to rule out the prospect of NATO's future expansion not only to East Germany but also to eastern Europe. Genscher suggested that the alliance should issue a public statement saying that "NATO does not intend to expand its territory to the East." "Such a statement must refer not just to [East Germany], but rather be of a general nature," he added. "For example, the Soviet Union needs the security of knowing that Hungary, if it has a change of government, will not become part of the Western Alliance." Genscher urged that NATO discuss the matter immediately, and Hurd agreed.

Three days later, in Moscow, Baker talked NATO with Gorbachev directly. During their meeting, Baker took handwritten notes of his own remarks, adding stars next to the key words: "End result: Unified Ger. anchored in a ´changed (polit.) NATO -- ´whose juris. would not move ´eastward!" Baker's notes appear to be the only place such an assurance was written down on February 9, and they raise an interesting question. If Baker's "end result" was that the jurisdiction of NATO's collective-defense provision would not move eastward, did that mean it would not move into the territory of former East Germany after reunification?

In answering that question, it is fortunate for posterity's sake that Genscher and Kohl were just about to visit Moscow themselves. Baker left behind with the West German ambassador in Moscow a secret letter for Kohl that has been preserved in the German archives. In it, Baker explained that he had put the crucial statement to Gorbachev in the form of a question: "Would you prefer to see a unified Germany outside of NATO, independent and with no U.S. forces," he asked, presumably framing the option of an untethered Germany in a way that Gorbachev would find unattractive, "or would you prefer a unified Germany to be tied to NATO, with assurances that NATO's jurisdiction would not shift one inch eastward from its present position?"

Baker's phrasing of the second, more attractive option meant that NATO's jurisdiction would not even extend to East Germany, since NATO's "present position" in February 1990 remained exactly where it had been throughout the Cold War: with its eastern edge on the line still dividing the two Germanies. In other words, a united Germany would be, de facto, half in and half out of the alliance. According to Baker, Gorbachev responded, "Certainly any extension of the zone of NATO would be unacceptable." In Baker's view, Gorbachev's reaction indicated that "NATO in its current zone might be acceptable."

After receiving their own report on what had happened in Moscow, however, staff members on the National Security Council back in Washington felt that such a solution would be unworkable as a practical matter. How could NATO's jurisdiction apply to only half of a country? Such an outcome was neither desirable nor, they suspected, necessary. As a result, the National Security Council put together a letter to Kohl under Bush's name. It arrived just before Kohl departed for his own trip to Moscow.

Instead of implying that NATO would not move eastward, as Baker had done, this letter proposed a "special military status for what is now the territory of [East Germany]." Although the letter did not define exactly what the special status would entail, the implication was clear: all of Germany would be in the alliance, but to make it easier for Moscow to accept this development, some kind of face-saving regulations would apply to its eastern region (restrictions on the activities of certain kinds of NATO troops, as it turned out).

Kohl thus found himself in a complicated position as he prepared to meet with Gorbachev on February 10, 1990. He had received two letters, one on either end of his flight from West Germany to the Soviet Union, the first from Bush and the second from Baker, and the two contained different wording on the same issue. Bush's letter suggested that NATO's border would begin moving eastward; Baker's suggested that it would not.

According to records from Kohl's office, the chancellor chose to echo Baker, not Bush, since Baker's softer line was more likely to produce the results that Kohl wanted: permission from Moscow to start reunifying Germany. Kohl thus assured Gorbachev that "naturally NATO could not expand its territory to the current territory of [East Germany]." In parallel talks, Genscher delivered the same message to his Soviet counterpart, Eduard Shevardnadze, saying, "for us, it stands firm: NATO will not expand itself to the East."

By design, Russia was left on the periphery of a post–Cold War Europe.

As with Baker's meeting with Gorbachev, no written agreement emerged. After hearing these repeated assurances, Gorbachev gave West Germany what Kohl later called "the green light" to begin creating an economic and monetary union between East and West Germany -- the first step of reunification. Kohl held a press conference immediately to lock in this gain. As he recalled in his memoirs, he was so overjoyed that he couldn't sleep that night, and so instead went for a long, cold walk through Red Square.

BRIBING THE SOVIETS OUT

But Kohl's phrasing would quickly become heresy among the key Western decision-makers. Once Baker got back to Washington, in mid-February 1990, he fell in line with the National Security Council's view and adopted its position. From then on, members of Bush's foreign policy team exercised strict message discipline, making no further remarks about NATO holding at the 1989 line.

Kohl, too, brought his rhetoric in line with Bush's, as both U.S. and West German transcripts from the two leaders' February 24–25 summit at Camp David show. Bush made his feelings about compromising with Moscow clear to Kohl: "To hell with that!" he said. "We prevailed, they didn't. We can't let the Soviets clutch victory from the jaws of defeat." Kohl argued that he and Bush would have to find a way to placate Gorbachev, predicting, "It will come down in the end to a question of cash." Bush pointedly noted that West Germany had "deep pockets." A straightforward strategy thus arose: as Robert Gates, then U.S. deputy national security adviser, later explained it, the goal was to "bribe the Soviets out." And West Germany would pay the bribe.

In April, Bush spelled out this thinking in a confidential telegram to French President François Mitterrand. U.S. officials worried that the Kremlin might try to outmaneuver them by allying with the United Kingdom or France, both of which were also still occupying Berlin and, given their past encounters with a hostile Germany, potentially had reason to share the Soviets' unease about reunification. So Bush emphasized his top priorities to Mitterrand: that a united Germany enjoy full membership in NATO, that allied forces remain in a united Germany even after Soviet troops withdraw, and that NATO continue to deploy both nuclear and conventional weapons in the region. He warned Mitterrand that no other organization could "replace NATO as the guarantor of Western security and stability." He continued: "Indeed, it is difficult to visualize how a European collective security arrangement including Eastern Europe, and perhaps even the Soviet Union, would have the capability to deter threats to Western Europe."

Bush was making it clear to Mitterrand that the dominant security organization in a post–Cold War Europe had to remain NATO -- and not any kind of pan-European alliance. As it happened, the next month, Gorbachev proposed just such a pan-European arrangement, one in which a united Germany would join both NATO and the Warsaw Pact, thus creating one massive security institution. Gorbachev even raised the idea of having the Soviet Union join NATO. "You say that NATO is not directed against us, that it is simply a security structure that is adapting to new realities," Gorbachev told Baker in May, according to Soviet records. "Therefore, we propose to join NATO." Baker refused to consider such a notion, replying dismissively, "Pan-European security is a dream."

Throughout 1990, U.S. and West German diplomats successfully countered such proposals, partly by citing Germany's right to determine its alliance partners itself. As they did so, it became clear that Bush and Kohl had guessed correctly: Gorbachev would, in fact, eventually bow to Western preferences, as long as he was compensated. Put bluntly, he needed the cash. In May 1990, Jack Matlock, the U.S. ambassador to Moscow, reported that Gorbachev was starting to look "less like a man in control and more [like] an embattled leader." The "signs of crisis," he wrote in a cable from Moscow, "are legion: Sharply rising crime rates, proliferating anti-regime demonstrations, burgeoning separatist movements, deteriorating economic performance . . . and a slow, uncertain transfer of power from party to state and from the center to the periphery."

Moscow would have a hard time addressing these domestic problems without the help of foreign aid and credit, which meant that it might be willing to compromise. The question was whether West Germany could provide such assistance in a manner that would allow Gorbachev to avoid looking as though he was being bribed into accepting a reunified Germany in NATO with no meaningful restrictions on the alliance's movement eastward.

Kohl accomplished this difficult task in two bursts: first, in a bilateral meeting with Gorbachev in July 1990, and then, in a set of emotional follow-up phone calls in September 1990. Gorbachev ultimately gave his assent to a united Germany in NATO in exchange for face-saving measures, such as a four-year grace period for removing Soviet troops and some restrictions on both NATO troops and nuclear weapons on former East German territory. He also received 12 billion deutsch marks to construct housing for the withdrawing Soviet troops and another three billion in interest-free credit. What he did not receive were any formal guarantees against NATO expansion.

In August 1990, Saddam Hussein's invasion of Kuwait immediately pushed Europe down the White House's list of foreign policy priorities. Then, after Bush lost the 1992 presidential election to Bill Clinton, Bush's staff members had to vacate their offices earlier than they had expected. They appear to have communicated little with the incoming Clinton team. As a result, Clinton's staffers began their tenure with limited or no knowledge of what Washington and Moscow had discussed regarding NATO.

THE SEEDS OF A FUTURE PROBLEM

Contrary to the view of many on the U.S. side, then, the question of NATO expansion arose early and entailed discussions of expansion not only to East Germany but also to eastern Europe. But contrary to Russian allegations, Gorbachev never got the West to promise that it would freeze NATO's borders. Rather, Bush's senior advisers had a spell of internal disagreement in early February 1990, which they displayed to Gorbachev. By the time of the Camp David summit, however, all members of Bush's team, along with Kohl, had united behind an offer in which Gorbachev would receive financial assistance from West Germany -- and little else -- in exchange for allowing Germany to reunify and for allowing a united Germany to be part of NATO.

In the short run, the result was a win for the United States. U.S. officials and their West German counterparts had expertly outmaneuvered Gorbachev, extending NATO to East Germany and avoiding promises about the future of the alliance. One White House staffer under Bush, Robert Hutchings, ranked a dozen possible outcomes, from the "most congenial" (no restrictions at all on NATO as it moved into former East Germany) to the "most inimical" (a united Germany completely outside of NATO). In the end, the United States achieved an outcome somewhere between the best and the second best on the list. Rarely does one country win so much in an international negotiation.

But as Baker presciently wrote in his memoirs of his tenure as secretary of state, "Almost every achievement contains within its success the seeds of a future problem." By design, Russia was left on the periphery of a post–Cold War Europe. A young KGB officer serving in East Germany in 1989 offered his own recollection of the era in an interview a decade later, in which he remembered returning to Moscow full of bitterness at how "the Soviet Union had lost its position in Europe." His name was Vladimir Putin, and he would one day have the power to act on that bitterness.
 
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asianobserve

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Even if the former US State Secretary gave verbal assurances to Gorbachev that NATO will not expand Westwards, it was not legally binding on the US or NATO. And the next US administration being not legally bound by Baker's verbal claims cannot be expected to be shackled to that. The best thing to do therefore is let each Eastern European country decide for himself: "do you want to be part of NATO?"
 

jouni

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Russia uses this and Kosovo bombings as a proof about "deceitful west" every time they need a reason for their actions against small neighbors.
 

asianobserve

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Russia uses this and Kosovo bombings as a proof about "deceitful west" every time they need a reason for their actions against small neighbors.
Did the United States betray Russia at the dawn of the post-cold war era? The short answer is no. Nothing legally binding emerged from the negotiations over German unification. In fact, in September 1990, an embattled Mr. Gorbachev signed the accords that allowed NATO to extend itself over the former East Germany in exchange for financial assistance from Bonn to Moscow. A longer answer, however, shows that there were mixed messages and diplomatic ambiguities.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/30/opinion/30sarotte.html?pagewanted=all
 

amoy

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Russia uses this and Kosovo bombings as a proof about "deceitful west" every time they need a reason for their actions against small neighbors.
If NATO keeps on expanding and pursuing its "collective security" unilaterally at the expense of the security of non-member stakeholders (read Russia here) it certainly has to face repercussions. Those "small neighbours" have to be aware selective aversion to certain risks (by joining NATO) may entail acceptance of other greater risks (possibly of pressure or hostility from the other side). Yugoslavia / Kosovo bombing indeed is a proof of "West hypocrisy". Now on what moral high ground can the West / NATO stand for Ukraine's sovereign "integrity" against E. Ukrainian secession when NATO propped up Bosnia / Kosovo separatism which resulted in humanitarian catastrophes and unhealed wounds before? Do they have any "consistency" rather than dual standards?

 

jouni

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Yes and the funniest thing is that in NATOs doctrine Russia is "a partner" and in Russian doctrine NATO is "an adversory".
 

amoy

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Yes and the funniest thing is that in NATOs doctrine Russia is "a partner" and in Russian doctrine NATO is "an adversory".
wielding a paper doctrine with flashy wordings like "partner" while pushing ahead on the ground?

any military group at the gate shall be deemed as a potential "adversary".

deeds r more important than words!

Sent from my 5910 using Tapatalk 2
 

pmaitra

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Russia uses this and Kosovo bombings as a proof about "deceitful west" every time they need a reason for their actions against small neighbors.
Dear @jouni, I do not know where you collect your information from (perhaps the same source as the Finnish Foreign Minister?), but from your comments, I regretfully state that your knowledge of recent European history is far from perfect.

It was not Kosovo bombing, it was bombing of Kosovo and regions outside of Kosovo, including Belgrade. Please read more about current European history.

Also, try to read and appreciate the posts by @amoy.
 
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