NAL Saras, Regional Transport Aircraft (RTA) & Hansa Project

Rahul Singh

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 30, 2009
Messages
3,652
Likes
5,790
Country flag
We should adopt copy principal of china in civil aviation at least.....
When you are late you got to something other than ordinary to catch up. I see nothing wrong in it. After all entire jet age, meaning jet engines coupled with swept wing design is originally a German innovation looted and exploited by those who are leaders in aviation today.

So let's start with copying C-295. After all, it's a multirole airframe.
 

darshan978

Darth Vader
Regular Member
Joined
Oct 22, 2017
Messages
476
Likes
766
Country flag
When you are late you got to something other than ordinary to catch up. I see nothing wrong in it. After all entire jet age, meaning jet engines coupled with swept wing design is originally a German innovation looted and exploited by those who are leaders in aviation today.

So let's start with copying C-295. After all, it's a multirole airframe.
Yep fully agree c 130 , and iptn 225 of indonesia, chinese copy y 8 all looks same no need to invent wheels at least we should try making this plnes with imported engine other things will be our at least !!!
 

Rahul Singh

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 30, 2009
Messages
3,652
Likes
5,790
Country flag
Yep fully agree c 130 , and iptn 225 of indonesia, chinese copy y 8 all looks same no need to invent wheels at least we should try making this plnes with imported engine other things will be our at least !!!
To start, just go with what is already available. Just stretch present SARAS into an ERJ-135/140/145 class airliners but with Turboprop (because it offers cost benefits over turbofan). As an airliner usually takes 3-4 years for certification.Start the development of entire family at once but with a spacing of 2 years between each for the maiden flights.

Subsequently, offer Turbofan versions also, for executive transport with an option for all-economy class configuration. Basically, offer a replacement of IAF's Embraer Fleet and an option to Airlines looking for speed on commuter/feeder routes.

Go all hog and see what happens. After all aircraft business is all about go big or go home.

Basic layout of SARAS and ERJs are similar.


 
Last edited:

Rahul Singh

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 30, 2009
Messages
3,652
Likes
5,790
Country flag
Sadly the same once, that all our aviation projects have, drag and overweight:
Then you should also know about this one saying "Just one crash and project will be scrapped".

Good enough reason for conservative designs hence overweight, underpowered and draggier. Something is always better than nothing.

There is also a trend to replace overly designed components with efficiently designed components at a later stage when a concerned design has fetched required confidence from potential users. Case in point is Tejas MK-1A.
 

kstriya

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 5, 2015
Messages
488
Likes
507
Country flag
To start, just go with what is already available. Just stretch present SARAS into an ERJ-135/140/145 class airliners but with Turboprop (because it offers cost benefits over turbofan). As an airliner usually takes 3-4 years for certification.Start the development of entire family at once but with a spacing of 2 years between each for the maiden flights.

Subsequently, offer Turbofan versions also, for executive transport with an option for all-economy class configuration. Basically, offer a replacement of IAF's Embraer Fleet and an option to Airlines looking for speed on commuter/feeder routes.

Go all hog and see what happens. After all aircraft business is all about go big or go home.

Basic layout of SARAS and ERJs are similar.


We are Using ERJ 145 ? for our AEWC platform, can a stretched SARAS be used as a replacement platform. Then a scale up looks pretty obvious and also civilian role makes it lucrative for HAL..
 

abingdonboy

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 13, 2010
Messages
8,039
Likes
33,573
Country flag
We are Using ERJ 145 ? for our AEWC platform, can a stretched SARAS be used as a replacement platform. Then a scale up looks pretty obvious and also civilian role makes it lucrative for HAL..
Do not discount the turbofan vs turbojet aspect. Turbofan on the ERJ allows the 145 to fly faster, higher and be more economical on fuel than the Saras. Turboprops are not ideal for AEW.
 

Rahul Singh

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 30, 2009
Messages
3,652
Likes
5,790
Country flag
Do not discount the turbofan vs turbojet aspect. Turbofan on the ERJ allows the 145 to fly faster, higher and be more economical on fuel than the Saras.
Turboprop scores higher on fuel economy and endurance. Jets compromise these for greater speed. Even high bypass turbofans can't beat props with variable pitch. Becuase of these reasons, probably the most popular airliner in the low-cost Regional category is still ATR series............Of course with improving economy and better financial conditions low-cost airlines are also introducing CRJs, E-series etc on regional routes. But its another matter. It's trade-off.

Turboprops are not ideal for AEW.
If you are looking for Greater On Station Endurance, a Turboprop is more suitable. If you are looking for Faster On Station Arrival turbofan is more suitable. So its a game of trade-off and balancing.

For those who need (more importantly, afforded it) best of both speed and endurance often selects airframes like A-330, IL-76s, B737 etc. for meeting primary AEW needs. Those who can't afford or don't need select An-12 ripoffs and SAAB S100.

We are Using ERJ 145 ? for our AEWC platform, can a stretched SARAS be used as a replacement platform. Then a scale up looks pretty obvious and also civilian role makes it lucrative for HAL..
I had spoken about replacing Embraer Legacy fleet of IAF which it uses for VIP transport.

Notwithstanding it a stretched up version of SARAS in ERJ-145 category could become a suitable platform for mounting NETRA and selling to whosoever interested in. As far as IAF is concerned I am not so sure if IAF is any more interested in an AEW on ERJ size platform because it is not ordering any more NETRA.
 

Armand2REP

CHINI EXPERT
Senior Member
Joined
Dec 17, 2009
Messages
13,811
Likes
6,734
Country flag
Do not discount the turbofan vs turbojet aspect. Turbofan on the ERJ allows the 145 to fly faster, higher and be more economical on fuel than the Saras. Turboprops are not ideal for AEW.
Turbofans are better for covering distance quickly but the main purpose of AWACs is loiter which is best served by turboprops.
 

Rahul Singh

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 30, 2009
Messages
3,652
Likes
5,790
Country flag
Turbofans are better for covering distance quickly but the main purpose of AWACs is loiter which is best served by turboprops.
AWACS needs to fly at a higher ceiling for greater coverage where a Turbofan beats a Turboprop. Is there any turboprop which can maintain its loiter time while flying at 35000-40000 ft? I think not.
 

Armand2REP

CHINI EXPERT
Senior Member
Joined
Dec 17, 2009
Messages
13,811
Likes
6,734
Country flag
AWACS needs to fly at a higher ceiling for greater coverage where a Turbofan beats a Turboprop. Is there any turboprop which can maintain its loiter time while flying at 35000-40000 ft? I think not.
The AWACs will fly at its optimal cruise altitude for the best loiter time. The radar attached to it is designed for best operational performance at that altitude. The bigger the radar dome the higher you can fly with look down performance, for smaller radars flying high would make sea level discrimination more difficult. The reason an E-2C doesn't have turbofans isn't because they couldn't do it, it is because turboprops are more efficient for loitering over the fleet and they can pick up cruise missiles better at a lower cruise altitude.
 

Kshithij

DharmaYoddha
Senior Member
Joined
Jul 25, 2017
Messages
2,242
Likes
1,961
AWACS needs to fly at a higher ceiling for greater coverage where a Turbofan beats a Turboprop. Is there any turboprop which can maintain its loiter time while flying at 35000-40000 ft? I think not.
ERJ145 with the DRDO NETRA has service ceiling of 37000 feet. The cruise altitude is 30000feet. So, SARS should be able to do the job if the size is increased. As of now, the payload is limited.
 

Rahul Singh

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 30, 2009
Messages
3,652
Likes
5,790
Country flag
The AWACs will fly at its optimal cruise altitude for the best loiter time. The radar attached to it is designed for best operational performance at that altitude. The bigger the radar dome the higher you can fly with look down performance, for smaller radars flying high would make sea level discrimination more difficult. The reason an E-2C doesn't have turbofans isn't because they couldn't do it, it is because turboprops are more efficient for loitering over the fleet and they can pick up cruise missiles better at a lower cruise altitude.
E-2C/D is an AWACS solution optimised for operations from a carrier deck with the primary role of protecting the carrier from cruise missiles by providing early warning. Also over the sea, the terrain is not uneven so E-2C/Ds can afford to fly low and yet detect targets of every size from considerable distances. Come over land where most of the air wars will be fought E-2C/Ds is nowhere to be seen.

Why? E-2C uses turboprop for increasing its loiter time. Because it uses a smaller airframe. Mount a Turbofan and endurance will reduce significantly. Almost making it useless in said scenario. Even with a turboprop, it is not a standard AWACS solution. The USAF uses E-3s(B707) because it offers ultimate solutions an AWACS shall offer. Next in line will be either based on B737 or larger 777/787. Still no turboprop.

Same with IAF. It has DRDO developed NETRA AEW&C on ERJ-145 but IAF wants it on a bigger platform with greater endurance/ loiter and ceiling performance(which affects the range of the Radar). In other words, it does not want a suboptimal AWACS but a full-blown one.

In fact, when DRDO selected A330 for next batch of AWACS, the A400 was never in the discussion, We know why.

ERJ145 with the DRDO NETRA has service ceiling of 37000 feet. The cruise altitude is 30000feet. So, SARS should be able to do the job if the size is increased. As of now, the payload is limited.
For those who are satisfied with 30000 ft cruise performance and 8-9 hrs endurance at 300-400 km radius, it should be fine. We can offer it as an option to anyone looking for Erieye size AWACS. But for IAF it may not be suitable.
 
Last edited:

Suryavanshi

Cheeni KLPDhokebaaz
Senior Member
Joined
Jun 5, 2017
Messages
16,330
Likes
70,171
I have heard good things from my professor regarding our Aerospcae industry.
If the government gets hell bent on developing our aerospace industry backbone then we can start making our completely indigenous Airplanes by 2030.

Eventually

Well get from this



To this



To this



To this



To eventually this



Bonus this



Remember we do not lack scientist or brains we just lack the much needed political and financial report.
 

Kshithij

DharmaYoddha
Senior Member
Joined
Jul 25, 2017
Messages
2,242
Likes
1,961
I have heard good things from my professor regarding our Aerospcae industry.
If the government gets hell bent on developing our aerospace industry backbone then we can start making our completely indigenous Airplanes by 2030.

Eventually

Well get from this



To this



To this



To this



To eventually this



Bonus this



Remember we do not lack scientist or brains we just lack the much needed political and financial report.
We only need transport planes for military cargo. Don't forget that oil is running out and hence these passenger planes may not be useful by 2030. We just need military transport planes
 

Kshithij

DharmaYoddha
Senior Member
Joined
Jul 25, 2017
Messages
2,242
Likes
1,961
WTF man oil isn't running out any time soon where do u even get this.
Oil is running out pretty soon. We use 4.2-4.3 billion tons or 30 billion barrels of oil a year. This is more oil than the entire volume of Chilika lake in India. Why do you think we won't run out of oil soon?
 

Rahul Singh

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 30, 2009
Messages
3,652
Likes
5,790
Country flag
We only need transport planes for military cargo. Don't forget that oil is running out and hence these passenger planes may not be useful by 2030. We just need military transport planes
Only Arab oil is running out which is a good thing.

BTW there are numerous unexplored oil reserves around rest of the world, especially at sea..................If and when there comes a time when there will be no oil the propulsion will shift to alternatives like electric. And likes of GE, P&W Rolls Royce will have appropriate engines/propulsion systems developed by then for the civil aircraft industry. And our industry might also be standing in parallel to these. So don't worry.
 

Kshithij

DharmaYoddha
Senior Member
Joined
Jul 25, 2017
Messages
2,242
Likes
1,961
Only Arab oil is running out which is a good thing.

BTW there are numerous unexplored oil reserves around rest of the world, especially at sea..................If and when there comes a time when there will be no oil the propulsion will shift to alternatives like electric. And likes of GE, P&W Rolls Royce will have appropriate engines/propulsion systems developed by then for the civil aircraft industry. And our industry might also be standing in parallel to these. So don't worry.
Actually, Arabs have 3:2 ratio of productions to reserve compared to others. Arabs will run out of oil much later. Even Russia and Norway has similar production to reserve ratio as Arabs.

Other countries will run out pretty quickly. UK, India, USA, China, Nigeria, Iraq, Libya, Syria, Oman, Bahrain, Angola, Mexico, Brazil, Australia, Canada etc are running out before 2035-40 itself. Arab crude will last till 2050.
 

Sancho

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 25, 2011
Messages
1,831
Likes
1,035
Good enough reason for conservative designs hence overweight, underpowered and draggier. Something is always better than nothing.
Wrong, something is not better than nothing, because it needs to fulfil the minimum requirements to be useful in the first place. We can't accept developmenta that are below standards, just because they are indigenous, since it's the security of the nation that is on the line.

And please don't act as if they planned with overweight and drag as a justification for an obvious problem. Ignoring these issues doesn't help the projects, we need to address them to fix problems and to improve our capabilities, otherwise we will keep seeing projects scrapped like IJT, delayed for years like LCA and not even considered like RTA anymore.
Saras has the same issues and if we don't fix then and try to justify them, the project won't get anywhere either.
 

Armand2REP

CHINI EXPERT
Senior Member
Joined
Dec 17, 2009
Messages
13,811
Likes
6,734
Country flag
E-2C/D is an AWACS solution optimised for operations from a carrier deck with the primary role of protecting the carrier from cruise missiles by providing early warning. Also over the sea, the terrain is not uneven so E-2C/Ds can afford to fly low and yet detect targets of every size from considerable distances. Come over land where most of the air wars will be fought E-2C/Ds is nowhere to be seen.

Why? E-2C uses turboprop for increasing its loiter time. Because it uses a smaller airframe. Mount a Turbofan and endurance will reduce significantly. Almost making it useless in said scenario. Even with a turboprop, it is not a standard AWACS solution. The USAF uses E-3s(B707) because it offers ultimate solutions an AWACS shall offer. Next in line will be either based on B737 or larger 777/787. Still no turboprop.

Same with IAF. It has DRDO developed NETRA AEW&C on ERJ-145 but IAF wants it on a bigger platform with greater endurance/ loiter and ceiling performance(which affects the range of the Radar). In other words, it does not want a suboptimal AWACS but a full-blown one.

In fact, when DRDO selected A330 for next batch of AWACS, the A400 was never in the discussion, We know why.
There are actually twice as many operators of the E-2 than there are of the E-3 and aside from the USN and FN, they are all land based. Then the next most proliferated AWACs is the Eryie which is also half turboprop. Then the Chinese only indigenous produced AWACS is also a turboprop. They are cheaper to build and cheaper to operate while giving a similar performance, it is the most efficient choice.
 
Last edited:

Latest Replies

Global Defence

New threads

Articles

Top