NAL Saras, Hansa, RTA-70 and NM-5

Discussion in 'Economy & Infrastructure' started by enlightened1, Apr 22, 2010.

  1. enlightened1

    enlightened1 Member of The Month JANUARY 2010

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    Anantha Krishnan M.
    BANGALORE

    India’s Directorate General of Civil Aviation (DGCA) on Thursday blamed a poorly devised engine relight procedure for the crash last year of the Indian 14-seater Saras airliner, slamming the aircraft designers *— the National Aerospace Laboratories (NAL) — and its flight test unit, the Indian Air Force’s elite Aircraft System and Testing Establishment (ASTE).

    The Saras PT-2 VT-XRM crashed at Seshagirihalli near Bangalore during a test flight on March 6, 2009, claiming the lives of two pilots and a fight test engineer.

    Aviation Week reviewed the 75-page DGCA findings and found many startling revelations.

    Ruling out poor maintenance, inclement weather, fitness of pilots and pre-impact fire as possibilities, the DGCA report said, there is no effective and continuous monitoring of test program by the NAL-ASTE (IAF) Management Committee and no records of monitoring are available. NAL also subcontracted a private agency named Aircraft Design and Engineering Service Ltd., Bangalore, and the work schedule indicates almost all the design and development work of the Saras project is being done by the contractor, which also includes flight testing analysis. This is not in line with DGCA approval given to the contractor that of only giving design and engineering support to the parts and appliances, the report said.

    The report said that the DGCA team did not find any effective pre-flight briefing for the crew or any records available to indicate the same on the day of accident. There is no contingency plan for unexpected emergencies like accidents, missing aircraft and loss of communication. NAL does not not periodically monitor cockpit voice recorder (CVR) and digital flight data recorder (DFDR) data.

    The crash aircraft was fitted with a certified Pratt & Whitney engine. However, the MT propeller is still in the process of certification, and the report said that NAL did not declare the propeller fit upon receipt of the prop and prior to use on the aircraft.

    In addition to the 11-point safety recommendations, the probe came out with the following possible causes of the crash. The primary focus is an incorrect relight procedure devised by the designer and adopted by the crew at insufficient height, leading to rapid loss of altitude and abnormal behavior of the aircraft. DGCA cited as contributory factors: a) lack of crew coordination and cockpit procedures; b) handling of the controls; c) non-aborting of flight by the crew in coordination with the flight test-director after failure of first relight attempt, and; d) devising engine relight procedures by NAL without consulting the propeller manufacturer.

    The DGCA was also critical of NAL for flying the aircraft on all five days of Aero India-2009, without taking the mandatory DGCA permission.

    The Director-General, Dr Nasim Zaidi, told Aviation Week that his team has probed all possible angles of the crash. “Our job is done and we have given our word on the crash. There are many findings and recommendations for NAL and ASTE to look into. After the mandatory period, we will see what action has been taken based on our report,” he said.

    NAL director Dr A.R. Upadhya told Avation Week that his team would look into the recommendations with clarity, once he gets hold of it. “I have not seen the report yet,” Dr Upadhya said. “In the meantime, we have formed a committee to look into all our civil aircraft programs. We will study the mandatory and desirable points in the DGCA report and move forward.”
     
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  3. anoop_mig25

    anoop_mig25 Senior Member Senior Member

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    i want whan there is DRDO and ADA then whats use of NAL and why ? wastage of money nothinh else
     
  4. ppgj

    ppgj Senior Member Senior Member

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    anoop, US has LM/BOEING/NG, Russia has MIG/SUKHOI. don't you think it drives competition and hence quality improves?? india is big and its needs are big. even private sector company like Mahindra is getting in while godrej also has aerospace division. they are coming for a reason!! besides catering to the huge local market they will target exports in future. competition will help in getting better products to the market and will serve india's aim to be a major aerospace player in the days to come.

    coming to ADA and NAL you must have noticed ADA concentrates on the miltary side and is the nodal agency for combat aircraft. LCA now, MCA later.

    where as NAL is more into civil side of the market and designing small and medium passenger planes for the corporate and domestic aviation sector respectively. however these can be configured for recon, intel gathering military applications too.

    india needs R&D and investments in both civil and military complexes.

    DRDO is only collaborating and helping them with subsystems.
     
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  5. venkat

    venkat Regular Member

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    whats use of NAL? You must be new to aviation R&D in India !!! it is the only organization which can analyse scaled down a/c models in wind tunnels!!! i hope you know about computational fluid dynamics and its use in new a/c design , its aero dynamic behavior at all speeds !!! These organizations have been created with a vision and they have specfic jobs cut for them!!! They are taking help of HAL in building SARAS type of a/c.... They have expertise in composites too!!!!
     
  6. anoop_mig25

    anoop_mig25 Senior Member Senior Member

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    ppgj & venkat thanks 4 reply .plus it would like to tell that like most here who are either form defense background or related ,i am not so i donot know even an inch of defense science
     
  7. Rahul Singh

    Rahul Singh Senior Member Senior Member

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    NAL's 'RTA-70', 'Saras', 'Hansa' and NM-5.

    [​IMG]

    There you go - India seems rather keen on going ahead with plans for a turboprop regional aircraft, which it is calling the RTA-70 (model above).

    Diehl unveiled a proposed cabin mock-up (below) at India Aviation 2010 that it produced in consultation with the National Aerospace Laboratories, which is leading the efforts to develop the RTA-70.

    NAL officials say that they plan to design the RTA-70 with the Indian market in mind, adding that existing turboprops do not meet those requirements. These include higher fuel efficiency, short landing and take-off capability, and the ability to transport cargo.

    This will give the aircraft 25% lower acquisition costs, 25% lower operating costs and 50% lower maintenance costs than existing turboprop regional aircraft, says NAL.

    The 70-seat aircraft will have a range of 1,100nm (2,000km), and require a take-off field length and landing field length of 900m (2,950ft). The aircraft would have a length of 28.6m and a wing-span of 29.4m. The aircraft would have a service ceiling of 30,000ft, a cruising speed of 300kt, and the noise level would meet Stage 4 criteria.

    The cabin, which would be able to seat four abreast, would have a length of 3.01m and height of 3.35m. The cargo hold would have a volume of 25m³ (880ft³).

    NAL is eyeing a composite airframe. The aircraft will be powered by two "next generation turboprop engines", it adds. It would have a fly-by-wire control system, open distributed modular avionics, ADS-B navigation capabilities, and advanced displays.

    This will primarily compete with ATR turboprop aircraft if the Indians go ahead. As to why they seem to think the world needs another regional aircraft is another issue altogether.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2010
    Kunal Biswas, nandu and A.V. like this.
  8. Rahul Singh

    Rahul Singh Senior Member Senior Member

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  9. Rahul Singh

    Rahul Singh Senior Member Senior Member

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  10. Rahul Singh

    Rahul Singh Senior Member Senior Member

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  11. plugwater

    plugwater Elite Member Elite Member

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    NAL Saras In Tailspin, Russians Called In

    Fifteen years after it pulled out from India's Saras light civilian transport aircraft programme, Russia's Myasischev Design Bureau (MDB) is back in the prestigious but persistently shaky airplane project under development by India's National Aerospace Laboratory since the early nineties. The bureau, along with Russia's Tsentralniy Aerogidrodinamicheskiy Institut (TsAGI) and the Gromov Flight Research Institute (LII), have been hurriedly commissioned into the programme to assist in refinement and core modification of the Saras design, which after six years of flight testing, has finally been judged to have faulty design elements. I'm told a team from Myasischev arrived in Bangalore on May 17 on a month-long visit for detailed discussions with programme leaders on the scope of work to be conducted on the Saras, a programme that has been in a fairly troubled state ever since its second prototype crashed tragically last year, killing its three-man test crew. Crash investigations had also pointed to serious flaws in the aircraft's basic design, which could be why the Russians have hurriedly been brought back in. The composition of the Russian team currently at NAL Headquarters in Bangalore tells you a little about what the project is looking for. The team consists of MDB chief designer Dr Alexander Bruk, his deputy Dr Alexander Arkhipov, Chief Specialist on Flight Dynamics Dr Eduard Abramenko, Engineer Designer on Control System Dr Vladimir Vinogadov and Dr Victor Frolovskiy from the Department of Design. The scope of work to be conducted by Myasischev includes flight testing and certification of the aircraft as well.

    http://livefist.blogspot.com/2010/05/nal-saras-in-tailspin-russians-called.html
     
  12. plugwater

    plugwater Elite Member Elite Member

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    NAL plans new design for its small aircraft

    Bangalore: Facing tough competition, designers at the National Aerospace Laboratories (NAL) are mulling over a change in the configuration of the so-called regional transport aircraft (RTA) they plan to build to run on short-haul feeder routes.

    The RTA was envisaged as a 70-90 seat civilian aircraft powered by a turboprop engine—a gas turbine engine used to drive a propeller.

    But NAL is now thinking of using a jet engine as well and increasing its capacity to 90-110 passengers.

    “We are looking at an aircraft (where) both turboprop and turbojet can be used,” said Samir Brahmachari,director general of the Council of Scientific and Industrial Research (CSIR), India’s largest public-funded research agency. NAL is the CSIRlab for aerospace technologies.

    A 15-member committee for national civil aircraft development held its first meeting in Bangalore on Thursday, and set a one-year deadline for a feasibility study for the Rs2,500 crore plane project.

    This will then be submitted to the government for approval. Developing and certifying the aircraft will take another six years after that.

    Planes made by Brazil’s Embraer and Canada’s Bombardier Inc. currently dominate such routes.

    While the Indian project is yet to get off the ground, Russia’s Sukhoi Co. and China’s China Aviation Industry Corp. are also building similar aircraft.

    V. Sumantran, who will be part of a two-member panel to attract private partners for the project in its design phase, said India was not too late to move.

    “There is going to be tremendous competition. I suppose people would have asked the Tatas this when they started building the Indica (car). Is it too late to build an Indica now? Now the answer is, it created a company with global scale in the auto industry,” said Sumantran, vice-chairman at Hinduja Automotive Ltd, who led the development of Indica at Tata Motors Ltd.

    His partner on the panel will be Arun Firodia, chairman of Pune-based Kinetic Engineering Ltd. A tender will be floated to invite private participation.

    Besides NAL, India’s military plane maker Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd, the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) and the Indian Space Research Organisation (Isro) will also participate in this public-private partnership.

    “To start with, we will have 100 people,” said G. Madhavan Nair, chairman of the research council of NAL. “When the project is peaking, at least 500 people will be directly needed. About 1,000-2,000 people from various industries will be participating.”

    While public sector firms have built helicopters, trainer aircraft, fighter jet and two passenger planes, the expertise is still lacking in India’s private sector.

    companies such as the Tata group, Mahindra and Mahindra Ltd, Larsen and Toubro Ltd and Godrej Industries Ltd are building capabilities in the aerospace industry, partly to meet local demands and partly to serve global companies such as Boeing Co. and Airbus SAS, which are looking at a low-cost manufacturing and design base.

    Currently, only the Mahindras have the capability to build aeroplanes through their acquisition of two Australian aerospace firms in December.

    http://www.livemint.com/2010/05/27220645/NAL-plans-new-design-for-its-s.html
     
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  13. Rahul Singh

    Rahul Singh Senior Member Senior Member

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    Too much discussions leads to numerous confusion. It is much better to kick-start soon because it doesn't matter, which capacity, each class is dominated by one or more giant and reputed players. Building know-how and industry should be at priority 1, commercial aspect and business should come next..
     
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  14. Patriot

    Patriot Senior Member Senior Member

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    http://indiadefenceonline.com/1959/india-seeks-russias-help-for-home-made-saras-aircraft/

    India Seeks Russia’s Help for Home Made Saras Aircraft

    India Defence Online, New Delhi – After the hiatus of one year, the state-owned National Aerospace Laboratories (NAL) will be aided by Russian experts to rectify and make design changes in India’s first indigenous aircraft called ‘Saras’.

    Due to a fatal crash in March 2009, the development of the ‘Saras’ aircraft was stalled but Russian expertise is expected to bring the ‘Saras’ project to its fruition.

    A pact was signed between India and Russia recently and an expert team from the Russian Government-run civil aircraft maker Myasishchev Design Bureau (MDB) is at National Aerospace Laboratories (NAL) to assist Indian designers on the ‘Saras’ project.

    Interestingly, it was MDB of Russia that first built and flew the small turboprop aircraft ‘Saras’ in the 1990s, but lack of funds forced MDB to abandon it despite its tie-up with NAL.

    India’s premier research laboratory under the Council of Scientific and Industrial Research (CSIR), has been holding talks with MDB since last year and has finally convinced a Russian team to India to assess the ‘Saras’ project again.

    According to NAL officials, Russian experts will help speed up flight development and certification and will advise NAL on flight testing as well as on design issues like flight controls. Since the fatal crash in 2009, NAL has sought an additional $10 million build a new aircraft.

    NAL had built two prototypes of the 14-seater ‘Saras’ aircraft. Despite that accident and the loss of one of the aircraft and three people, India’s home-grown multi-role “Saras” aircraft will still be acquired by the Indian Air Force (IAF) and the Indian Navy. The price tag of each ‘Saras’ aircraft was $8 million then.

    In July 2009, NAL officials indicated that the second prototype of the 14-seater Saras aircraft had been fitted with a high performance engine and its weight had been considerably reduced. The weight had been reduced after fine-tuning the aircraft’s structural design, more use of composites and optimisation of margins and electrical fittings. The reduction in the weight of the second prototype by over 500 kilograms from the first prototype of 5118 kilograms was also matched with a high thrust engine from Pratt and Whitney.

    While no reasons were cited last year for the ‘Saras’ aircraft crash, the Directorate General of Civil Aviation (DGCA) has investigated the crash and found fault with the management of the project and design issues such as unstable flight control laws. The DGCA recommended that NAL consult other aircraft makers for flight trials.
     
  15. nandu

    nandu Senior Member Senior Member

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    NAL to Partner with Mahindra and L&T for Passenger Aircraft

    New Delhi -- The private sector engineering giants Larsen & Toubro Limited (L&T), as well as Mahindra and Mahindra Limited, plan to bid for partnership in the prestigious Indian passenger aircraft programme. A panel on behalf of the Indian government has approved the one year feasibility study of the regional transport aircraft (RTA).

    The ambitious RTA programme is being headed by the National Aerospace Laboratories (NAL) which will design and manufacture the 90-110 seat plane, with the project cost amounting to $500 million.

    The Indian government has also signalled Indian private players to bid as partners for this project. An amount similar to the RTA project cost will be invested in manufacturing and building a service network for the RTA.

    NAL is part of the Council of Scientific and Industrial Research (CSIR) which is India’s premier agency with largest public funding. CSIR Director General Samir Brahmachari said that the aircraft would be fuel-efficient, light and equipped with high-tech electronics. It will require a short-runway, have capability for short-haul and have a minimum carbon footprint. The RTA will provide maximum comfort and controlled noise level for better air travel.

    According to NAL officials, the RTA will be ready in six years and a tender inviting private participation will be floated soon. Although the private players like L&T and Mahindra have lost out on earlier government projects for other aircraft projects, it will be keen on bidding on a competitive basis from the RTA. Both L&T and Mahindra have enough expertise to assist NAL with the RTA programme. In fact, Mahindra and Mahindra are already running a five-seat plane development project with NAL.

    In March 2010, NAL officials said that they plan to design the RTA with the Indian market in mind, adding that existing turboprops do not meet those requirements. These include higher fuel efficiency, short landing and take-off capability, and the ability to transport cargo. This will give the aircraft 25% lower acquisition costs, 25% lower operating costs and 50% lower maintenance costs than existing turboprop regional aircraft, says NAL.

    http://indiadefenceonline.com/1970/nal-to-partner-with-mahindra-and-lt-for-passenger-aircraft/
     
  16. plugwater

    plugwater Elite Member Elite Member

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  17. Indianrabbit

    Indianrabbit Regular Member

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    While I am happy that we are moving ahead, whenever I see the turbofan engine I think why are we not using jet engine any reason? Looks like old tech to me but I am no expert.
     
  18. AJSINGH

    AJSINGH Senior Member Senior Member

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    can military variant be also developed on the lines of CN235
     
  19. Kunal Biswas

    Kunal Biswas Member of the Year 2011 Moderator

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    1.Fuel economy..
    2.Capability of Taking off and landing on short runways..
    eg> Shimla.
     
  20. Rahul Singh

    Rahul Singh Senior Member Senior Member

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    Put all together what Kunal Sir said and you have an aircraft which offers low cost air transportation, an essential for success in countries like Bharat where air transportation is still not popular in domestic arena because of high fare..

    Because of high noise and low speed Turboprop may not sound advanced and glamorous in military term and in civilian term respectively but they have their own advantage over turbofan. One example if EADS A-400, which they claim as most advanced tactical transport aircraft in the world.
     
  21. plugwater

    plugwater Elite Member Elite Member

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    IT firms to take to the skies?

    BANGALORE: Technology firms Tata Consultancy Services (TCS), Wipro and QuEST, apart from private sector aviation companies such as Mahindra Aerospace and L&T , are among the vendors currently in discussions with the National Aerospace Laboratories (NAL) for providing software, designing and manufacturing around 500 regional transport aircraft.

    India’s ambitious civil aviation program (RTA-70) is aimed at building planes for carrying 70-90 passengers on short haul flights, and rival similar aircrafts from ATR, which currently dominates the country’s skies.

    Officials at NAL, the premier agency spearheading the project, confirmed that alliances are being worked out. “Negotiations are on with various private players like TCS, Infosys, Wipro to provide expertise in software, hardware and product development,” a senior NAL official said on conditions of anonymity. The design and development of the prototype is estimated to cost about Rs 5,000 crore and is expected to be ready by 2015-16 for flight trials.

    Of the 500 planes, 200 will be sold to Indian defence, 200 to civil aviation companies and 100 units are to be exported. The project committee will explore the need to go in for a public-private partnership (PPP) at the beginning, so as to involve the Indian aerospace industry, which will be responsible for production at a later stage and marketing and servicing subsequently, officials added.
    At the peak of the project, about 500 people from state-run agencies and around 2,000 people from the industry will be involved.

    According to Roddam Narasimha, one of India’s top aerospace scientists and a member of the high-powered committee for the country’s national civil aircraft development project, RTA-70 is just a step in building a successful and globally competitive civil aviation program. “Public-private partnership is part of our vision for this project. We never had a civil aeronautical aircraft programme, nor have we made serious attempts,” Mr Narasimha said. “On the other hand, China is very far ahead of us. They are challenging Airbus 320 and Boeing 737 and may actually move ahead of them,” he added.

    China’s answer to Boeing and Airbus is the Comac C919 aircraft. Its introduction was low-key , a move consistent with how Chinese firms prefer to operate overseas.

    The aircraft designed and built entirely in China, will compete directly against industry leaders Airbus 320 and Boeing 737 after completing flight trials in four years. It should be available commercially by 2016.

    “You will be surprised to know that 10 years ago, Indian Aeronautics was ahead of China. We had developed some of the key technologies on our own such as Carbon Fibre Wings and Flight Control System . India should take an initiative for a Civil Aeronautics Flight Programme. This project is a step in that direction,” said Mr Narasimha.

    As trained people in the aerospace area are limited, the committee will rope in design experts from state-run organisations such as Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) and Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO) to share some of the project workload. The committee is headed by former chairman of ISRO, G Madhavan Nair.

    The project committee has decided to form nine sub-committees to prepare reports on various parameters such as choice of engine, composite materials, avionics, landing gear, control systems, short haul runways, setting up of design bureau, hiring people, engaging the industry and infrastructure required for operating the regional transport aircraft service.

    “The major projects have got delayed, not because we lack capabilities, but due to indecisiveness at the policy level. We want to develop an aircraft that serves not only India, but the world,” said Mr Narasimha.

    The committee hopes the prototype will be rolled out in the next 5-6 years for flight testing and certification for initial operational clearance. By then, it plans to have production facility in place with the industry.

    Besides Mr Nair, CSIR director-general Samir K Brahmchari, ISRO chairman K Radhakrishnan, DRDO chairman VK Saraswat, NAL director AR Upadhyaya, HAL chairman Ashok Nayak, Space Commission member Roddam Narasimha, Hinduja Automotive vice-chairman V Sumantran and Kinetic Engineering director Arun Firodia are the members of the high-powered committee.

    SPREADING WINGS

    India’s ambitious civil aviation program (RTA-70 ) is aimed at building planes for carrying 70-90 passengers on short haul flights.

    Of the 500 planes, 200 will be sold to Indian armed forces, 200 to civil aviation cos and 100 units will be exported.

    Prototype design & development may cost around Rs 5,000 cr and is expected to be ready by 2015-16 for flight trials.

    The project committee will rope in design experts from state-run organisations.

    http://www.mumbaimirror.com/article...51e77f382f/IT-firms-to-take-to-the-skies.html
     

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