Nag anti-tank Missile

AnantS

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@Kunal Biswas

Since for Nag, I think a target needs to be in LOS to be acquired. The way to overcome this issue could be to use dual seeker!? One seeker acquiring Visual target, Other infra red? Anyway I think DRDO is also working on mmw seeker version for Nag. So probably mix and match of two different type of missile is the key?
 

charlie

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Missing the point!!!

I design systems which need user acceptance for me to get paid. I never ever in my career given a system for user testing which is not upto the mark.

When I see a premier defence organisation like DRDO publicising their short fall in a news article and still expects their user to accept their shortcomings is where is feel sad.

What spike and javelin does is not my concern, as they are not of Indian make.

From my point is view...

Indian defence industrial complex cannot succeed with this approach.
Well go through contract you signed with you client if you have time and access to it, you will find pretty interesting stuff.

There is just no system that is 100% efficient, at-least I can vouch in the field of radars and RF communication as well as Indian Thermal power sector.

In Indian Thermal power sector even everything works fine client will not sign last few stages of acceptance, you have to give money to local political party if the client is state government.

In US and Canada it's the same they don't sign acceptance that easily even if client has no idea of system. Client will always try to get more out of your company regardless of how efficient your system before they sign all the acceptance test.
 

Kunal Biswas

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The 94GHz seeker for HELINA fully functional, And successfully tested ..





An air-launched, 10-km range variant will be launched from tactical interdiction aircraft like the upgraded Jaguar IS. It has a nose-mounted mill metric-wave active radar seeker
Anti-tank Nag missile 'Helina's' trial conducted - The Times of India

===========================

My technical knowledge regarding the feasibility of a hybrid seeker is limited, But if they are sticking with one seeker and forced to reduce the range then its is perhaps the only way ..


@Kunal Biswas

Since for Nag, I think a target needs to be in LOS to be acquired. The way to overcome this issue could be to use dual seeker!? One seeker acquiring Visual target, Other infra red? Anyway I think DRDO is also working on mmw seeker version for Nag. So probably mix and match of two different type of missile is the key?
 

SATISH

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Well I heard that the IIR seeker had problems differentiating the tank from the background and hence there is going to be reduction of range. Can anyone confirm this?
 

Kunal Biswas

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Article posted at last page ..

Well I heard that the IIR seeker had problems differentiating the tank from the background and hence there is going to be reduction of range. Can anyone confirm this?
 

Yumdoot

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Can these problems be solved by integrated design bureau planned by IA?
No.

Indian Army should have its own design bureau but this has nothing to do with it.

The sensors are Indian but the FPA is still most likely foreign or even at the very best (ie. if they are Indian) then at the same maturity level as the rest of the world. So if FPAs cannot work in that kind of heat and temperature differential then that is the problem of technology not being mature enough. Nearly nothing to do with DRDO's or Indian Army's competence or incompetence levels.

CCD sensors for Nag, have been talked about since long, which is a day or low light sensor. IIR is for day/night both. Chances are CCD sensor, for optical imaging, was not developed for logical reasons. Just get the MMW sensor to work.

Without MMW the only way Indian Army could have helped the cause is by accepting heavier Nags with both CCD and IIR sensors. Which will entail another long round of testing for nearly all parts of the system. Probably would have helped if the same was attempted from the get go. Unfortunately IA and DRDO are usually working at cross purpose.

Another option is to have a laser guided missile mated to the Namica. But for the IA that may sound risky.

So basically, while you can find options to fight even in the extreme conditions, the lethargy and bitter history and changing landscape of the battlefield will change quite a bit of the requirements w.r.t. Nag. UAVs with Helinas will not face this problem and at the time the Nag was being developed UAVs were not a big item on the list.
 

sayareakd

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This problem can be solved easily with two additional day stereo cameras, which will give 3D image of target, it appears to me that target tank in heat of day will give to much heat so that sensor cannot distinguish between target and back ground. Having two day stereo cameras will produce 3D image of target tank, in heat of day it will appear clear (unless proper camaflage is used to hide depth) where depth is visible. With additional clock chip and modified programme.

Since Nag attack from top, it needs depth to distinguish from background. 3D image/ video will solve this problem.

NAG can take out enemy tank.
 
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Yumdoot

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Like the coincidence range finder? But will that be accurate and fast enough for a top attack missile expected to work in all weather day/night? Ranging and guidance fed from the Namica can always be done but will have challenges, which may not be acceptable to Indian Army.

My guess is it too can be made to help, like other half-solutions, but there is probably no complete solution bar the onboard MMW seeker.
 

charlie

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This problem can be solved easily with two additional day stereo cameras, which will give 3D image of target, it appears to me that target tank in heat of day will give to much heat so that sensor cannot distinguish between target and back ground. Having two day stereo cameras will produce 3D image of target tank, in heat of day it will appear clear (unless proper camaflage is used to hide depth) where depth is visible. With additional clock chip and modified programme.

Since Nag attack from top, it needs depth to distinguish from background. 3D image/ video will solve this problem.

NAG can take out enemy tank.
3d is not feasible at all as of now, Reason
At night time won't work
It will be easy to fool 3d when compared to IIR seeker
it would require quiet a lot of processing power for 3d image, as well data rate would increase so will the number of channels.
 

HariPrasad-1

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joke of the day!!!

An ATGM that does not recognise the target it is built to destroy, during specific times of the day ofcourse.

Let's start having lunch breaks from 11 AM to 3PM during the tank battles. Or even better tank battles should happen only during night shifts.
Ohhhhhh You are smarter than christopher???

During peak heat, other things are also hot along with mettle tanks. so recoganization from a distance is difficult. when temperature goes down, the temperature difference between tank and surrounding is high so tank can easily be detected.
 

sayareakd

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3d is not feasible at all as of now, Reason
At night time won't work
It will be easy to fool 3d when compared to IIR seeker
it would require quiet a lot of processing power for 3d image, as well data rate would increase so will the number of channels.
Bhai for night time it has thermal camera. I am just saying add two day cameras as thermal during perticular time gives false reading.
 

ezsasa

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Ohhhhhh You are smarter than christopher???

During peak heat, other things are also hot along with mettle tanks. so recoganization from a distance is difficult. when temperature goes down, the temperature difference between tank and surrounding is high so tank can easily be detected.
Ok, does this mean that there is no IR seeker in the entire world which can identify tanks in deserts when sun is up?
 

Indx TechStyle

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India’s Nag Anti-tank Guided Missile To Undergo Final User Acceptance Trials In Few Days

Nag Anti-Tank Guided Missile
India’s Defense Research Development Organization (DRDO) will undergo its final user acceptance trials of its Nag, Gen-3 Fire and Forget Anti-Tank Guided Missile in the next few days.
DRDO had to postpone the trials after it cited technical reasons in the 'Qualification Testing of the Rocket Motor' used in the missile as the ground for rescheduling or the delay.
“The DRDO is working on a slightly reduced range of Nag, the indigenously-built third generation anti-tank guided missile,” Director General S. Christopher Thursday.
"The missile identifies the target (tank) through infra-red seeking. So if the environment is cool and even if the differential temperature is just two degree, it can identify the target," he told reporters here. "But if the tank is left for hours in summer (sun), that is what we did during the recent trial, the temperature difference between the tank and the environment is negligible and that is the time we cannot meet the targeted four km range,"
Christopher, when asked, admitted that problems still persist with the Nag anti-tank guided missile that was to undergo its final user acceptance trials by the Army in the next few days. According to the DG, there are problems with the missile's seeker system.
 

ezsasa

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Ohhhhhh You are smarter than christopher???
Not appropriate to bring personal jibes into a technical discussion.

Btw the answer to the question is, Christopher maybe good at what he does, I am also good at what I do .

Let's leave out personal jibes, and focus on technical aspects of the discussion.
 

HariPrasad-1

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Not appropriate to bring personal jibes into a technical discussion.

Btw the answer to the question is, Christopher maybe good at what he does, I am also good at what I do .

Let's leave out personal jibes, and focus on technical aspects of the discussion.
How is it possible that you both are right inspite of telling contradictory matter on same subject?
 

Yumdoot

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How is it possible that you both are right inspite of telling contradictory matter on same subject?
:biggrin2:

But @ezsasa you too should be a bit more careful with your own comments like when you ask "
Ok, does this mean that there is no IR seeker in the entire world which can identify tanks in deserts when sun is up?"

Its crazy man. Did anybody in the world claim that anywhere. For gods sake Nag FPA is from Sofradir so the basic tech is as good as it gets. Shree Christopher is asking for a 3.2 km range with this imported tech at the core. The similar tech that Spike uses has failed at 2.5 km in Thar. Javelin has success rate at 2.5 km is of 94% per manufacturer (which implies a failure of 6% - which obviously is under similar difficult circumstances). The only time Javelin hit 100% correct was in British tests which is nothing like Thar and had hits at 1.2 km also, something that Nag does every second day.

For longer ranges even the Spike uses a fiber optic updation or a datalink updation. And that is one of the solutions. In fact the full use of a carrier like Namica is when you radio link it to the missile for very long ranges. Something that can only be worked upon if the basic Nag+Namica is first accepted as an acceptable product.

And see Javelin's performance at much easier launches.
http://www.military.com/video/guide...les/shock-and-awes-javelin-fails/763331381001
 
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ezsasa

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How is it possible that you both are right inspite of telling contradictory matter on same subject?
Let me try to put my comments in context:

My initial post on the topic is a sarcastic reflection of state of things where a india's premier defence research organisation is wishing their primary user(IA) to accept a product which is yet to achieve the specifications that have been laid out.

I am not a subject matter expert on the purely technical aspects of the topic, hence I had some follow up questions in the thread to see if I can correct my understanding of things. If and when I see that I am wrong in my understanding, will definitely change my stand.

seeing this scenario from a project management and change management point of view, I believe there is a lot of scope of improvement the way things are being handled in DRDO.
 

sayareakd

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this is how Spike works, it has top attack capabilities like our Nag


from frame 0.21, you can see the spike coming down and it see the tank from the top, its depth is visible, 3D picture can be easily identify the same. Spike in this case is wire guided. But Nag automatically find at take out tank based on its data base.


same is this other video.
 

ezsasa

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this is how Spike works, it has top attack capabilities like our Nag


from frame 0.21, you can see the spike coming down and it see the tank from the top, its depth is visible, 3D picture can be easily identify the same. Spike in this case is wire guided. But Nag automatically find at take out tank based on its data base.


same is this other video.
Do you have any videos on how an IR seeker sees the target?
 

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