Myth of PLAN's Power

Impluseblade

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You might have lost access to internet for a long time since the numbers listed in the table are outdated. Check this web "http://china-defense.blogspot.com/" where pictures of the new vessels are posted. Seeing is believing.

and you seem to have the attention span of a cat. :)

please read (and re-read) what I wrote to understand why most of PLAN's older destroyers are just frigates and why most of the so-called frigates are corvettes.

off-shore patrol vessels and fast attack craft are completely irrelevant as far as India is concerned.

oh, and a forum post is hardly what I would call a 'source'. neither are unsubstantiated wiki articles.
 

Rahul M

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the article is from october last year. the numbers are accurate for that time. hardly 1 or 2 ships have been added since then.

china-defense blogspot is interesting but not exactly reliable. most of the claims like 15 054A class have little to no proof.
 

Impluseblade

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Hope you are not another Arand. I provide you the source and you can check it by yourself. Very high definition photos are posted there and you can count by yourself. Or you can just ignore the truth and live in your world.

the article is from october last year. the numbers are accurate for that time. hardly 1 or 2 ships have been added since then.

china-defense blogspot is interesting but not exactly reliable. most of the claims like 15 054A class have little to no proof.
 

t_co

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the article is from october last year. the numbers are accurate for that time. hardly 1 or 2 ships have been added since then.

china-defense blogspot is interesting but not exactly reliable. most of the claims like 15 054A class have little to no proof.
There is plenty of documentation in the Chinese-language media for the 15x054As (and other ships).
 

J20!

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the article is from october last year. the numbers are accurate for that time. hardly 1 or 2 ships have been added since then.

china-defense blogspot is interesting but not exactly reliable. most of the claims like 15 054A class have little to no proof.
Have you checked for proof, or are you assuming.

There have been 19 Type 054A frigates launched with 15 in service with the PLAN. They are:

PLAN Type 054A Frigates by Pennant Number

FFG 529 Zhoushan,2006-1221, HP
FFG 530 Xuzhou, 2006-0930, HD
FFG 538 Yantai, 2010-0824, HP
FFG 546 Yancheng, 2011-0427, HD
FFG 547 Linyi, 2011-1213, HP
FFG 548 Yiyang, 2009-1117, HP
FFG 549 Changzhou,2010-0520, HD
FFG 550 Weifang, 2012-0709, HD
FFG 568 Hengyang,2007-0523, HD
FFG 569 Yulin, 2009-0428, HD
FFG 570 Huangshan, 2007-0318,HP
FFG 571 Yuncheng, 2009-0208, HP
FFG 572 HengShui, 2011-0521 HP
FFG 573 Liuzhou, 2011-1210 HD
FFG 574 Shaoyang, 2012-1130 HD
FFG 575 Yueyang, 2012-0509 HP
FFG 576 Huangshi, 2013-0928 HP
FFG 577(?) Sanmexia(?), 2013-0428 HP
FFG 578(?) Unnamed, 2013-0930 HD

Video: Shanghai Hudong shipyard launches its 10th Type 054A frigate build, 17th of the class total:

[video]http://www.56.com/u69/v_OTc4Njg0NjY.html/1030_zcwshw.html[/video]







The 3 054A's being fitted out at Hudong:

 
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Ray

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and you seem to have the attention span of a cat. :)

please read (and re-read) what I wrote to understand why most of PLAN's older destroyers are just frigates and why most of the so-called frigates are corvettes.

off-shore patrol vessels and fast attack craft are completely irrelevant as far as India is concerned.

oh, and a forum post is hardly what I would call a 'source'. neither are unsubstantiated wiki articles.
The Chinese go by NUMBERS, even if are mere sampans!
 

J20!

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why most of PLAN's older destroyers are just frigates and why most of the so-called frigates are corvettes.

off-shore patrol vessels and fast attack craft are completely irrelevant as far as India is concerned.

oh, and a forum post is hardly what I would call a 'source'. neither are unsubstantiated wiki articles.
If you'd visited said forum you'd realize that unlike on this forum, members disdain wiki claims and require photographic evidence before a claim is confirmed or actively discussed.

Most of the PLAN's old destroyers and frigates were designed, built and operated at a time (in the 70's and 80's) when the PLAN rarely ventured past the first island chain. The British Type 42 destroyer, built in the same time frame, weighed in at 4100tons max vs 3700tons for the 1980's batch of the Type 051G's.

Capability is determined by doctrine, not the other way around. Their designation ie. destroyer or frigate, was determined by their role in the navy, not their tonnage.
 
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Ray

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Capability is determined by doctrine, not the other way around. Their designation ie. destroyer or frigate, was determined by their role in the navy, not their tonnage.
Indeed it is dictated by doctrine.

But the Doctrine must be backed up with weaponry that meets the role

Usually the size and the purpose. The period of time sometimes distinguishes the name.

Modern navy combat ships are generally divided into seven main categories. The categories are: Aircraft Carriers, Battleships, Cruisers, Destroyers, Frigates, Submarines, and Amphibious assault ships. There are also support and auxiliary ships, including the minesweeper, patrol boat, and tender. During the age of sail, the ship categories were divided into the ship of the line, frigate, and sloop-of-war.

Frigate is a name which has been used for several distinct types of warships at different times. It has referred to a variety of ship roles and sizes. From the 18th century, it referred to a ship smaller and faster than a ship-of-the-line, used for patrolling and escort work rather than fighting fleet actions. In modern military terminology, the definition of a frigate is a warship intended to protect other warships and merchant marine ships and as anti-submarine warfare (ASW) combatants for amphibious expeditionary forces, underway replenishment groups, and merchant convoys.

A corvette is a small, maneuverable, lightly armed warship, smaller than a frigate but larger than a coastal patrol craft.

In naval terminology, a destroyer is a fast and maneuverable yet long-endurance warship intended to escort larger vessels in a fleet or battle group and defend them against smaller, short-range attackers (originally torpedo boats, later submarines and aircraft).

A cruiser (From Dutch Kruiser, "something that crosses") is a classification of large warship. Historically they were generally considered the smallest ships capable of independent operations — destroyers usually requiring outside support such as tenders — but in modern parlance this difference has disappeared. In modern warfare the cruiser has virtually disappeared, supplanted in all roles by the destroyer.

In naval terminology, a destroyer is a fast and maneuverable yet long-endurance warship intended to escort larger vessels in a fleet or battle group and defend them against smaller, short-range attackers (originally torpedo boats, later submarines and aircraft).

At the beginning of the 21st century, destroyers are the heaviest surface combatant vessels in general use, with only four nations (the United States, Russia, France and Peru) operating cruisers and none operating battleships.[1] Modern destroyers are equivalent in tonnage but drastically superior in firepower to cruisers of the World War II era, capable of carrying nuclear missiles able to destroy cities in a very small volley.

Battleship was the name given to the most powerfully gun-armed and most heavily armored classes of warships built between the 15th and 20th centuries. Battleships evolved from northern European cogs, and included carracks and galleons in the 16th Century, ships of the line in the 17th and 18th centuries, broadside ironclads and Pre-Dreadnoughts in the 19th century, and Dreadnoughts in the 20th Century. For over 300 years battleships ruled the waves, allowing nations such as Portugal, the Netherlands, Spain, France and the United Kingdom to create and maintain trade-based overseas empires and restrain their rivals. During World War II (1939-45) they were superseded as the deciding factor at sea by aircraft carriers.
Source:
Wikipedia!
 

ice berg

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and you seem to have the attention span of a cat. :)

And you dont even have that. Consider how your "source" is probably older than you.
please read (and re-read) what I wrote to understand why most of PLAN's older destroyers are just frigates and why most of the so-called frigates are corvettes.
People have provided you with an orbat of both new and old PLAN surface fleets. In your fantasy world of yours you didnt realize that 1. Frigates and destroyers are names only. You can call your AC for hello kitty for all we care. It is their designed role that is important. Most of PLANs older ships are designed in the 70s or 80s. Judging current PLAN surface fleet based on those older ships gives a wrong picture.
off-shore patrol vessels and fast attack craft are completely irrelevant as far as India is concerned.
It is to show you their current surface fleet. From your own source.
oh, and a forum post is hardly what I would call a 'source'. neither are unsubstantiated wiki articles.
That is so rich coming from the guy who sited those source in the first place.

Likes:267source ? I used a combo of sinodefence figures and those referred to in wiki articles. the data is from october last year, I doubt the situation has changed so drastically in one year.

btw, saurav didn't write that article, I did. he mentions it quite clearly.
Rahul M ↑

Was that you or your troll twin brother?
Lucky for you that internet can hide your incompetence. 5 seconds of google will give us a aloooooooot better numbers than your imaginary numbers.
 

shiphone

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hi afako, I hadn't seen your post before now. it's a good post although I would like to point out that the part you have quoted to support your view is from my post in BRF. :) Bharat Rakshak "¢ View topic - Managing Chinese Threat

@the people who have repeated the PLAN has 'million' battleship nonsense, I request them to have a look at the blog post again.
Saurav Jha's Blog : Guest Post 3: 'Dragon on the High Seas' by Rahul M

specifically, this table.


Uploaded with ImageShack.us


it explains why the 051 Luda, 052 Luhu and 051B Luhai can't be considered destroyers by the definition we understand. those are frigates. if those are destroyers then so are the talwars and the shivaliks.
and also why other than 054 ships, none of PLAN's 'frigates' are quite that. there was also a part on sub analysis that didn't appear due to factors beyond my control.
@those quoting personal blog as strong evidence...
such so called explaination from some Indian Blogger just shew us something familiar 'again': Ignorance and arrogance...

my first thread on DFI was to help some another famous MP.net member clarify some mistakes or inaccurate information about the weapon of PLA army along LAC.
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/china/25585-pla-vs-indian-army-lac-discussion-thread.html

it seems that I have to help another famous MP.net member here.....LOL....BTW, personaly I don't think some discussion from a Closed BBS or restrictive BBS would be more valuable than the discussion on the Open BBS.
--------------------------

Part.1 051 Destroyers.

PLAN used to operate 16 such destroyers...now there are still 8 left(when you wrote the reply to that blog, PLAN had 10 in last Oct). although so called LUDA II ,III is not correct , these could be considered as 2 varients:

Type 051 (DDG133,134,163,164) --- around 30 years old, phasing out
Type 051G(Improved 051--DDG109,110,165,166).,commissioned in 1982,1984,1990,1992, 16SSM+8(8)SAM




this destroyer has a full Displacement: 3,670--3800 tons...especially for AShW role. and two of them(DDG165,166)had enhanced ASW ability.
it would be quite funny to bring the 1350 tons P25/25A into this compare..P16/P16A might be more appropriate, but the hangar and platform on P16A credit more in ASW .and they are both propelled by steam turbine(outdated propulsion system for modern medium surface combat vessle ).but the P16A ---the deeply improved British Type12 Leaders seems quite new...as these so called PLAN old " 60s' design", 30 years old fellows are phasing out the fleet. the three P16A just arrived in this century, the newest one commisioned in 2005.

we also could find some fellow in PLAN fleet for the P25A Corvette---the 1350 tons class 053H1G ,there are 6 in service ,commissioned between 1993-1995 , quite simliar the four P25A(also around 1350 tons) commissioned between 1998-2004.



IN's P25A
 
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shiphone

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Part 2. PLAN 's second Generation DDG: 052 and 051C

these two class is labelled as Second Gen home made Destroyers. two Type 052 (DDG112,113) have the imported LM2500 engine to form the CODOG propulsion system. commission in 1994 and 1996...during the 2009-2011, both took the MLU and overhaul. after that ,052 equips 730 CIWS, 16 YJ83 SSMs and upgraded C4I and EW sys...



Type 051B (DDG167) is a 6600 tons class vessle, powered by Steam turbines...commissioned in 1999...obviously this is a seperated Project from another team , nor so called Enlarged 052, this project was built for two purpose should be mentioned.

1. the C4I sys on this ship is enhanced for Fleet FlagShip role.
2. this ship still use the newly developped Steam turbines because a whole steam turbine R&D team ,manufacturing capacity, supply chain are well kept in China Shipbuilding Industry for the future 40K tons class LHD and 60K tons class CV since 1990...

After 14 years in service, the only Type51B is going to accept the MLU this year.



-------------------
should we bring the 3800 tons class P16A(3 in service) or even the much older P16(3 in service) into this compare with these two 4800 and 6600 tons class DDGs? obviously that is not very suitable again.

 
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Rahul M

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shipone, a source would be nice. a bit of politeness would be even nicer. not sure how MP.net comes into the picture.

p.s. the equivalence I have mentioned has to do with both tonnage and weapons/sensor fit.
 
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PLAN 's power will always be capped at bullying smaller neighbors in the south china seas.
Most ships and submarines are over 30 years old, and USA was naval bases all around china,
It.is impossible for China to carry out any operation undetected.
 

Ray

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PLAN 's power will always be capped at bullying smaller neighbors in the south china seas.
Most ships and submarines are over 30 years old, and USA was naval bases all around china,
It.is impossible for China to carry out any operation undetected.
The Chinese Navy is insurmountable.

Age of the naval vessels are not material.

Numbers are!

so, says our Chinese friends!
 

Armand2REP

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shiphone said:
2. this ship still use the newly developped Steam turbines because a whole steam turbine R&D team ,manufacturing capacity, supply chain are well kept in China Shipbuilding Industry for the future 40K tons class LHD and 60K tons class CV since 1990...
Dream on... This uses diesel engines from Pielstick like all PLAN surface ships of this size.
 

shiphone

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some idiot can't help jumping out to show his ignorance again and again...

once again, since some Quote Faker claimed that Type051B --DDG167 use diesel engines, not Steam Turbine as the main propulsion...you'd better give your evidence....LOL...you claim, then you prove it...not just simple lip service ,which is really cheap.

on this forum ,everytime some idiot's Lie was destroyed, that idiot would pretend nothing happened and then made up more lies in other threads...never change and never learn....LOL...a joker in deed...
 
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Armand2REP

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some idiot can't help jumping out to show his ignorance again and again...

once again, since some Quote Faker claimed that Type051B --DDG167 use diesel engines, not Steam Turbine as the main propulsion...you'd better give your evidence....LOL...you claim, then you prove it...not just simple lip service ,which is really cheap.

on this forum ,everytime some idiot's Lie was destroyed, that idiot would pretend nothing happened and then made up more lies in other threads...never change and never learn....LOL...a joker in deed...
Every PLAN destroyer before it uses French diesels, prove that it doesn't. Oh wait, you can't! You can't even prove any claims against me while I bust you all day. :lol:
 

shiphone

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Every PLAN destroyer before it uses French diesels, prove that it doesn't. Oh wait, you can't! You can't even prove any claims against me while I bust you all day. :lol:
once again, since some Quote Faker claimed that Type051B --DDG167 use diesel engines, not Steam Turbine as the main propulsion...you'd better give your evidence....LOL...you claim, then you prove it...not just simple lip service ,which is really cheap.
I would like to repeat my request ...show us your source saying that Type051B --DDG167 use diesel engines, not Steam Turbine as the main propulsion.
-------------------
then ...another Lie was made up...LOL

Every PLAN destroyer before it uses French diesels
the Destroyer class before the 051B are : 07 class, 051 class, 052 class...
then tell me and show us the source saying that any of these three class using the French diesels as the main propulsion....
BTW, obviously not only french firm offer the diesels....LOL...

directly answer these two questions like grown man...
 
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t_co

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I would like to repeat my request ...show us your source saying that Type051B --DDG167 use diesel engines, not Steam Turbine as the main propulsion.
-------------------
then ...another Lie was made up...LOL



the Destroyer class before the 051B are : 07 class, 051 class, 052 class...
then tell me and show us the source saying that any of these three class using the French diesels as the main propulsion....
obviously not only french firm offer the diesels....LOL...

direct answer these two questions like grown man...
Armand's a troll. Just put him on the ignore list
 

shiphone

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Part.3 the 3rd Gen Destroyers Type052B/C Type051C

Type 052B(DDG168,169) is a 6000 tons(full load) class vessle... found many such tricky analogy in terms of tonnage: 1350 tons P25A vs 3700 tons 051/051G, 3850 tons P16A vs 4800 tons 052 or 6700 tons 051B. it seems that you forgot the 5 Rajput (Kashin II , around 30 years old) Class and 3 lately commsioned P17 frigates here...if you bring these into that table, maybe less dispute would be generated...



two 052C(DDG170,171) and 051C(DDG 115,116) respectively have HHQ-9 and Rif-M AD system which could offer max air defence radius of 125KMs and 200KMs. and these 4 ships have commissioned for around 7-9 years. we know the P15A with 70km Brak8 would come ,but they are not yet. and BTW , when the first P15A comes ,the first 052D with 200Km level HHQ9B AD system might have commissioned in 2014. the AEGIS style AD system--S band AESA 346 radar on the 052C is some mentionable achievement.




in 2013 ,the East Sea Fleet got two more 052C ---DDG150,and 151...two more -DDG152 153- are at sea trial stage(bellow two pix), they would commission in the 2014...

 
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