Much of India's Defence R&D is in effect an expensive re-inventing of the Wheel

[badguy2000]

We care about everything - votes, wallets and shipyards as well . There are already new ship yards constructed and new ships are being constructed including future ATVs. or do you not consider ATV a modern warship?

frankly speaking, I think the following is the route how your babus politicans raise defence project:

1. raise a splendid projects first,to attract the eyeballs and votes .before study the feasibilty.

2,then study the the feasibility of the projects. find some problems.

3.ask more fund to fix the problems

4.delay.

5.raise a more splendid new plan ,to replace the delayed one,because new election is coming.

6. study the feasiblity of the new more splendid plan. find new problems.

7. ask for more money...and fix the new problem...

8.delayed again....

9..raise a new more more splendid plan....because a new election is coming again.

 

[ahmedsid]

frankly speaking, I think the following is the route how your babus politicans raise defence project:

1. raise a splendid projects first,to attract the eyeballs and votes .before study the feasibilty.

2,then study the the feasibility of the projects. find some problems.

3.ask more fund to fix the problems

4.delay.

5.raise a more splendid new plan ,to replace the delayed one,because new election is coming.

6. study the feasiblity of the new more splendid plan. find new problems.

7. ask for more money...and fix the new problem...

8.delayed again....

9..raise a new more more splendid plan....because a new election is coming again.

I guess thats how we got to the moon!!! Or Is it not?? I guess thats how the Arjun tank was made and a Top Tank Consultant hired said the Arjun is one of the best there is! Or is it not???

 

[tianzhushaonv]

until a real war happen ,indian will not receive the fact that badguy just list .sigh,

 

[ahmedsid]

until a real war happen ,indian will not receive the fact that badguy just list .sigh,

We have fought real wars, In fact we fought one with you too! That did open our eyes, and we did create a Whole new country- Bangladesh! We have given bloody noses and much more to our enemies.

If we are like you say, then why are the chinese planning on breaking up India and considering as a threat? I mean we are weak good for nothings if I believe what you say!

 

[Payeng]

frankly speaking, I think the following is the route how your babus politicans raise defence project:

1. raise a splendid projects first,to attract the eyeballs and votes .before study the feasibilty.

2,then study the the feasibility of the projects. find some problems.

3.ask more fund to fix the problems

4.delay.

5.raise a more splendid new plan ,to replace the delayed one,because new election is coming.

6. study the feasiblity of the new more splendid plan. find new problems.

7. ask for more money...and fix the new problem...

8.delayed again....

9..raise a new more more splendid plan....because a new election is coming again.

Politicians do not raise defence projects but defence planners, politicians just approves.

Defence projects works through a systematic research design,
problems are caused not by politician but be the foreign policy and international relation when technological procurement are inbound. I believe being a Chinese you can understand the barriers in such a process.

sad that you don't know how democracy works, but prospective defence procurement are not an agenda in Indian election.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

fix you base, then talk about upper bulldings.

the case is that the base of India defence industry ,like the tech of material and machining , is very backward and weak.

however, only few Indian people are ready to face it . And Indian politicians dare not tell it to indian people ,because they are afraid to lose votes.

indian politican always know that to raise a splendid moving plan can always attract more votes to silently hard fix the base of defence industry ,however unpractical the plan is .

So, indian politicans always tend to raise one more and more plans like LCA,MRCA,MCA....but nobody of them care how to fix the base like tech of material and machiningl.

Defense Industry and toy industry are two separate things one does not make the other, just keep believing these things you write better for us.

 

[NSG_Blackcats]

frankly speaking, I think the following is the route how your babus politicans raise defence project:

1. raise a splendid projects first,to attract the eyeballs and votes .before study the feasibilty.

2,then study the the feasibility of the projects. find some problems.

3.ask more fund to fix the problems

4.delay.

5.raise a more splendid new plan ,to replace the delayed one,because new election is coming.

6. study the feasiblity of the new more splendid plan. find new problems.

7. ask for more money...and fix the new problem...

8.delayed again....

9..raise a new more more splendid plan....because a new election is coming again.

Your above post reflects your level of knowledge about India. Could you please let me know any specific project that is declared by Indian Politicians without consultation with our defense forces?

 

[K Factor]

Unlike China where CPC tells the PLA/AF/N what to buy/procure, here in India, the Armed Forces tell the politicians what to buy, and the politicians just sanction the money.

 

[nitesh]

mr satish thanks for your reply ....but the qurestion still remains unanswered ;viz ,

"what defence products has all that research produced ?"

... am just requesting some info about that .

please do read:

post number: 9, 10, 13, 15, 17, 18, 19, 20, 24, 26, 27, 30, 34, 37 yaar I am getting tired please do read the thread:

http://www.defenceforum.in/forum/in...s/55-research-drdo-psu-news-discussion-4.html

and

http://www.defenceforum.in/forum/in...5-indias-contribution-science-technology.html

 

[roma]

nitesh, my original statement was "MUCH" not "all ". Hope you read into that distinction. Thanks, Shukriya.

 

[nitesh]

nitesh, my original statement was "MUCH" not "all ". Hope you read into that distinction. Thanks, Shukriya.

and I hope you must have gone through the posts it clearly point towards "much" not "all"

 

[Tshering22]

IMO the main problems facing our industrial development of defense sector is one and just one word: DELAYS. Excessive staff, old-times procedures, red-tapism coupled with blatant corruption, lack of a planning base and refusal to encourage innovation in the country through university programmes and encourage youth to come forward with their innovative defence ideas is the source of our costly and often fruitless efforts in R&D.

If one observes US innovation:

- it heavily encourages university students, defence enthusiasts and young engineers to come forward with their own prototypes if successful, are inducted.
- it encourages defense technological courses in its universities and raises awareness of this particular field among young students. How many universities offer such courses in India?
- strong initiative, coupled with less number of useless procedures and easy and flat-line bidding process without any unspoken constraints out-of-paper as it is common in India that leads to scam, is absent.

This is the major reason apart from of course, massive encouragement of Private sector to come in. Rather than doing this in the late 90s, it took GOI another 10 years to actually implement such a procedure to invite private firms in defence.

R&D in our country is fine enough if only there

- were less procedures
- less number of people involved,
- MORE DECISIVE people involved,
- people were having some sort of on-field experience in combat,
- soldiers serving mid or lower level posts to try out new platforms rather than high ranking officers who've long back left their battlefield skills.
- more transparency.

Other than that, we are bang on target. Had all this been there, Tejas would be flying right now with no need for MK2 improvements since this MK1 would itself be satisfying all demands, Arjun would have come 10 years back, Arihant would have received operational clearance, Vikramaditya would have come by now etc.

 

[warriorextreme]

for a country to prosper it is necessary that it becomes self dependent in every field..technology is also one of that..
today it might look costly but in long run its gonna save a lot of money and in future it will surely generate money for India..

 

[pmaitra]

India has two options regarding R&D:

• Copy, pirate and plagiarise.
• Re-invent the wheel.

Copy, pirate and plagiarise - PROS:

• Quick development.
• Sharper learning curve.
• Lower development costs.

Copy, pirate and plagiarise - CONS:

• Straining relationships with other countries.
• Risk of blacklisting.
• Denial of collaboration in the future.
• Earns a bad name for the country, just like PRC has earned for itself.

Re-invent the wheel - PROS:

• Wider knowledge base.
• Spinoff technologies.
• Confidence in developing future systems.
• National prestige.

Re-invent the wheel - CONS:

• Slow.
• Shallow learning curve.
• higher development costs.

TsAGI:
Now, let me give an example of TsAGI - Central Aerohydrodynamic Institute (Центра́льный аэрогидродинами́ческий институ́т - ЦАГИ). This institution was established for research and training students in aerodynamics, hydrodynamics and fluid-mechanics. Many engineers who went on to develop planes for the USSR were students under French engineers who were invited as guest lecturers. TsAGI, not commonly known, is the one who designed the MiG-29 and Su-27. They did all the research and development, perfected the design of the airframe and handed it down to MiG and Sukhoi Design Bureaux. MiG built a smaller aircraft out of it while Sukhoi built a larger aircraft.

What we lack in India are institutes like that. We have IITs, however, if the bright students passing out from there do not work in Indian defense sector, and opt to fly out to the west, then IIT or no IIT, it does not matter whatsoever.

Kalam and Wernher von Braun:
India does indeed have a knowledge gap and the decades long technology denial did not particularly help. I would like to mention (correct me if I am wrong here) that Dr. Abdul Kalam had met Wernher von Braun and here are some details:

Journey with Von Braun
[excerpt from book A.P.J. Abdul Kalam: the visionary of India By K. Bhushan, G. Katyal]

Kalam was to meet Wernher von Braun, the man who conceived the lethal V-2 missile and was involved with rocket program at NASA and later he became the technical director of the German Missile Laboratory. Kalam was excited to travel with such a man who was a scientist, a designer, a production engineer, an administrator and a technology manager. Kalam was to escort him from Madras to Thumba. Braun observed the length to diameter L/D ratio of the SLV-3 and cautioned Kalam about the aero-elastic problems, which had to be avoided, during the flight.

Braun told Kalam, "SLV-3 is a genuine Indian design and you may be having your own troubles, but you should always remember that we don't just build on successes, we also build on failures." He further said that more hard work was not enough in rocketry, as it was not a sport where mere hard work can fetch honors. Here, one need not have to have a goal but, strategies to achieve it as fast as possible.

SLV was now a religion, a mission and God's purpose for Kalam, to be on earth. During those days, Kalam played no badminton in the evenings, nor on weekends or holidays. He has no family, no relations, nor any friends outside the SLV circle.

Hope this gives a clear picture of where India's priorities lie. In my humble opinion, we need to start grooming a new generation of motivated scientists and engineers who will innovate for India instead of serving foreign countries.

 

[armaan_gpt]

No to copying!Atleast whatever we make we have a clear conscience.:happy_8:

 

[no smoking]

We are laying the strong foundations for the defense and technological base e and that is why it is taking more time, unlike china which is cutting the corners (read pirating) to achieve technologically superior things without any strong base. One day it will come down like a pack of cards.

What do you think is the foundations for the defense and technological base?
The factory making weapons? or the the company produces high-techonology product?
No, they are not. The real foundation is your civilian industry, the ones prouduce TV, Car, home electronic even cloths. These producers are the ones providing basic tech, material, machine and even skill workers.

 

[utubekhiladi]

mr yusuf ..... india may have been denied US technology for 34 years of nuclear sanctions but defence equipment was in fact available from the then soviet bloc ...in fact in the 1980's US reports placed indian air force strength as being SUPERIOR to china's .....mrs G did what was necessary by purchasing and didnt use "the almighty DENIAL " as an excuse the be denied .....i think it is about time the rest of india ( not everyone ,please ) got off using that infamous "denial" as an excuse, dont you think ?

also during 80's Indian economy was not good. we faced 4 wars by then.

 

[JBH22]

Hope this gives a clear picture of where India's priorities lie. In my humble opinion, we need to start grooming a new generation of motivated scientists and engineers who will innovate for India instead of serving foreign countries.

Easier said than done all of us wants the highest pay or work in USA and i do not blame those who want to do that,if someone is very bright why the hell should he not offer his services to the best payer??btw APJ KALAM is a legend noone can become like him too bad

 

[pmaitra]

Easier said than done all of us wants the highest pay or work in USA and i do not blame those who want to do that,if someone is very bright why the hell should he not offer his services to the best payer??btw APJ KALAM is a legend noone can become like him too bad

Can India not afford to pay really high salaries to our scientists? Yes. the problem is most of those running the government are more concerned about stashing their own Swiss Bank accounts. Then there are a coterie of senior scientists in DRDO, HAL, NAL, OFB etc., who sometimes have too much of a control over their respective institutions and juniors are often overlooked. Money is not all. If there is job satisfaction, motivation will come automatically. Despite a wealth of technical knowledge, many of our scientists lack in the 'HR' department with their own subordinates.