MRCA News & Discussions (V)

[black eagle]

Germany Will 'Contribute to an Arms Race,' Charges Opposition

Selling fighter jets to India would violate weapons-export guidelines, say members of the German opposition, who are criticizing a trip by Defense Minister Guttenberg to India this week. New Delhi has dangled a fat contract for a fleet of jets, but critics say Berlin should not export weapons to a crisis zone.

German Defense Minister Karl-Theodor zu Guttenberg has been criticized by opponents for making a trip this week to India, where he attended an air show in Bangalore Thursday and tried to drum up business for a European-made fighter jet.




On Wednesday he met with Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, whose government is weighing a purchase of 126 Eurofighters, built by the German-French aerospace consortium EADS. The deal is reportedly worth €7.3 billion ($9.9 billion).

India's long-simmering border conflict with neighboring Pakistan has made Guttenberg's two-day trip something of a controversy. Both countries have nuclear arsenals, and German Green Party chief Claudia Roth told SPIEGEL ONLINE that a sale of military gear to any crisis region was "an open departure from the principles of German weapons-export policy."


German export guidelines from 2000 say weapons should not be sold to nations at imminent risk of armed conflict. "India not only falls into this category as a nuclear power," Roth said, "it also lies in a highly unstable conflict zone."By stumping for the Eurofighter in New Delhi, "the dashing Guttenberg will contribute to an arms race," said Roth. "That contradicts, in an irresponsible way, important efforts for peace and stability in this very tense region."

A prominent Social Democrat, Gernot Erler -- who served in the Foreign Ministry between 2005 and 2009 -- told SPIEGEL ONLINE that Chancellor Angela Merkel's current government behaves "frivolously" with German export guidelines.
'There Will Not Be Any Irresponsible Exports'

Guttenberg is a member of the Christian Socialist Union (CSU), the Bavarian sister party to Merkel's center-right Christian Democrats (CDU). They've ruled since 2009 in a coalition with the business-friendly Free Democrats (FDP) and before that were in government with the Social Democrats from 2005-2009.



Guttenberg's office countered Thursday by saying the export guidelines were drawn up by a previous government, namely the Green-Social Democrat coalition under former Chancellor Gerhard Schröder, who left office in 2005. In 2008, Guttenberg's staff argues, Berlin agreed in principle to a sale of jets to India -- with the tacit participation of Gernot Erler, among others.


"Some of those now being critical took part in this decision," the defense minister told reporters at the Aero India air show in Bangalore.



The Federal Security Council -- a parliamentary committee on defense issues -- makes final decisions on German weapons sales, and in 2008 the council did not object to a potential deal with India.




"There cannot and will not be any irresponsible weapons exports," Guttenberg added. "We have clear guidelines. We have decisions that must go through the Federal Security Council, and that is the basis for our negotiations."

But the question of whether to loosen the Schröder-era guidelines has been a political football for months. The Eurofighter sale is also not a sure thing -- India's massive contract to modernize its air force has a number of international suitors. The American F/A-18 Super Hornet and the Russian MiG-35 Fulcrum are also in competition.


Meanwhile, on Thursday, Pakistan announced a successful test launch of a new cruise missile, the Hatf VII, which reportedly has a range of 600 kilometers.


http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,744727,00.html

 

[black eagle]

Intense battle on for missile contract

Almost every aviation watcher is talking about the imminent multi-billion dollar Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) deal for the Indian Air Force.

But beyond the glare of this spotlight, weapon manufacturers are waging an equally intense battle to clinch the contract to supply the missiles that will be integrated into the eventual winner.

The heat of this competition was very evident at Aero India 2011, with the likes of MBDA and the American firm, Raytheon, aggressively marketing their versatile missile
range.

While MBDA showcased its Meteor, the Beyond Visual Range Air to Air Missile, which could be fitted onto the Eurofighter Typhoon, Grippen or the Rafale aircraft – all competing for the MMRCA deal -- Raytheon was clear that it could deliver missile systems for five of the six platforms competing for the mega deal.

A top Raytheon official's remark was telling enough: "We are aircraft-independent, combat-proven and reliable." For the record, the Raytheon range features five missile types, including the Amraan, Paveway, HARM, Maverick and AIM-9X for the F-16. Some of these could also be integrated into Grippen, Eurofighter and Rafale, besides the F/A-18, company officials said.

Israeli missile manufactures are also in the fray. While State-owned aviation major, Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), will eventually take a final call once the MMRCA aircraft is known, the missile makers would want to be seen "reliable."

Nuclear sanctions

With the history of nuclear sanctions, the Americans have apparently not scored high on the reliability front. But Raytheon officials justified its reliability claim, citing the US Government's readiness to offer even its frontline fighter to India as a sign of a sea change in strategic relationships.

Having its missiles used in real conflict scenes in Afghanistan and Iraq, for instance, Raytheon emphasised on the combat-proven nature of its ware. That was obviously, a direct threat to MBDA's offer of the METEOR missile.

The METEOR is currently under development by the European missile maker, which has showcased it as a "weapon of the future," with a capability three to four times stronger than the contemporary weapons. If India eventually goes for an European make MMRCA, the country would be one of the first in the world to get the missile integrated.

"The British, Spanish, Italian, German and all other frontline European Air Forces would have the same capability," a top MBDA official told Deccan Herald. Yet, the missile is not combat-proven, and the Americans are harping on this factor to hard sell their produce.
Hyderabad-based Bharat Dynamics Limited (BDL), the premier national missile maker, will also be a decisive factor. Existing partnerships between BDL and the competing foreign missile makers will have to be factored in too.


http://www.deccanherald.com/content/136698/intense-battle-missile-contract.html

 

[nrj]

Germany Will 'Contribute to an Arms Race,' Charges Opposition

And this Social Democrat was recently briefed by???

I think we know who is igniting classic politics in Germany here....

Nevertheless, EFT's fate in MRCA won't be affected by this perfect-time (!) controversy. Typhoon's flaws are enough for itself to be rejected.

 

[Parthy]

Eurofighter Seeks India as Industrial Partner for Production, Future Developments

The Eurofighter Partner Companies are keen to win India as a new industrial partner for the production and further development of the world's most advanced swing-role combat aircraft. Speaking at a media conference on the occasion of Aero India 2011, Bernhard Gerwert, CEO of Cassidian Air Systems and Chairman of the Supervisory Board of Eurofighter GmbH, outlined details of the industrial partnership offer to integrate India as a partner in the Eurofighter programme. Mr. Gerwert said: "Our ultimate objective is to win India as a key partner co-developing and co-producing future upgrades and enhancements, new sub-systems, software, etc."

In order to phase India into the global Eurofighter Typhoon programme as a significant manufacturing and engineering partner, the Eurofighter partners pursue an ambitious industrialization strategy. Gerwert explained: "We are starting to develop the base for a comprehensive future supplier network which will plug India into the global Eurofighter supply chain. Even before the MMRCA selection, we invest in making India a new home for the Eurofighter Typhoon."

An acquisition of the Eurofighter Typhoon will create more than 20,000 high-skilled jobs in India and support the development of a self-reliant indigenous defence industry. India would gain access to a wide array of technologies from Europe's leading aerospace and defence companies avoiding over-dependence on a single source. Enzo Casolini, CEO of Eurofighter GmbH, emphasizes: "We are committed to Transfer of Technology because we want to enable India to manufacture this advanced combat aircraft itself and we want to see the country emerge as a truly global development partner."

Cassidian, the EADS Division for Security and Defence, is systematically implementing its industrialization strategy. The latest step was the opening of the first defence oriented engineering centre owned by a foreign company in India. Mr. Gerwert underlined: "This proves that we are ready to transfer high value defence R&D to India." Cassidian plans to increase the current number of 60 employees in its defence engineering centre to more than 200 by the end of 2012, with many of them working on Eurofighter related tasks. Mr. Gerwert also said: "We strongly believe that Eurofighter Typhoon is indeed the best choice for safeguarding India's autonomy and sovereignty. Its selection will elevate the strategic relationship between India and Europe to a completely new level."

Enzo Casolini, CEO Eurofighter GmbH, said: "India and other nations in Asia are important markets for combat aircraft. All nations are watching closely how India is running this tough competition and will evaluate the final result in every detail. In the next 20 years the total world market for combat aircraft could reach a total of 800 units. We believe that Eurofighter Typhoon could potentially win orders for around 250 of these aircraft."

Eurofighter Typhoon is currently the most modern multi-role combat aircraft available on the world market and the latest technology fighter aircraft on offer for the MMRCA. Its airframe is made of over 80 % composites, incorporating new-age materials like carbon fibre composites (CFC), glass-reinforced plastic, special alloys, etc. The aircraft entered into service in 2004 and has a life span of more than 40 years ahead. Since entry-into-service, more than 260 aircraft have been delivered to six customers. The worldwide Eurofighter Typhoon fleet just recently achieved the milestone of 100,000 flying hours.


http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/newsrf.php?newsid=14382

Eurofighter making their pitch hard to get the deal done!! No fact in the world has tested my patience to this level...

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

germany who is responsible for the death of 10 million jews in the ww2 is scared of armed conflict.this is really height of hypocricy.india should leverage it's position as a top arms buyer and reject the eurofighter and go for rafael or gripen.

 

[ace009]

And this Social Democrat was recently briefed by???

I think we know who is igniting classic politics in Germany here....

Nevertheless, EFT's fate in MRCA won't be affected by this perfect-time (!) controversy. Typhoon's flaws are enough for itself to be rejected.

Oh come on - these are political talking points. Just as NDA opposes everything done by UPA (and vice versa) this is the same knee-jerk reaction in German politics.
I think the Eurofighter is the best aircraft in the MMRCA contest and except for the price, has NO weak points as such. All those talking about it's weak ground attack capabilities should remember that None of the other fighters (with the exception of the F/A-18) have any better ground attack capabilities as the Eurofighter. I belive the Eurofighter is the best multi-role aircraft for the IAF with a long lifespan (till ~2040), and with a midlife upgrade can serve IAF till 2050. In addition, the ToT offered by the EF consortium is way better than anyone else.

 

[ace009]

germany who is responsible for the death of 10 million jews in the ww2 is scared of armed conflict.this is really height of hypocricy.india should leverage it's position as a top arms buyer and reject the eurofighter and go for rafael or gripen.

The Germans killing 10 million Jews are a bit different from the Germans currently living in Germany - by about two generations and by being one of the most pacifist of the western developed nations (i.e. compared between UK, France, USA, Spain etc). If you are still stuck by WW-2 standards, then USA, UK, Soviet Union and China are the good guys ...

 

[nrj]

Oh come on - these are political talking points. Just as NDA opposes everything done by UPA (and vice versa) this is the same knee-jerk reaction in German politics.
I think the Eurofighter is the best aircraft in the MMRCA contest and except for the price, has NO weak points as such. All those talking about it's weak ground attack capabilities should remember that None of the other fighters (with the exception of the F/A-18) have any better ground attack capabilities as the Eurofighter. I belive the Eurofighter is the best multi-role aircraft for the IAF with a long lifespan (till ~2040), and with a midlife upgrade can serve IAF till 2050. In addition, the ToT offered by the EF consortium is way better than anyone else.

All fighters in MRCA are world-class of their own breed. However, being best except this & that are only going to be scoring points over one another & thus clearing way for winner.

MRCA series of threads are full of EFT's disadvantages so here I'll just point one or two -

(1) EFT's AESA is still experimental & its deployment timeline is questionable.
(2) Seriously I don't want to pay for fighter development which will benefit bunch of economic-crisis hit countries.
(3) Couple of lower priced fighters have better A2G & AESA than EFT.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

SAAB Gripen..

 

[black eagle]

Aero India 2011: Is India flying back into Russia's arms?

India and Russia have finalised the Russian PAKFA aircraft —a Sukhoi-T50 fighter aircraft — as the base design model for their $6 billion Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) programme. This has not just dealt a death-knell to any prospects of India joining the American F-35 fifth generation fighter programme, but also indicates the nature of things to come on India's final selection of the $10 billion deal to procure 126 Medium weight Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCAs).


And it does not appear bright for the Americans who have come to Aero India 2011 with Boeing's F/A 18 Super Hornet and Lockheed Martin's F-16 IN Super Viper – seriously considered as the two of which one would finally clinch the costliest Indian defence deal till date, which, according to Air Chief PV Naik, would be signed by September this year.


Globally, defence experts and critics are reading too much into the absence of MiG-35 at Aero India 2011 from which it pulled out just a week ahead of the commencement of the event on February 9.

But the Russian delegations visiting Aero India 2011 in Bangalore have confirmed that though their contender for the MMRCA deal, MiG-35, was the only one from the six contenders to have pulled out from the air show, the MMRCA selection committee members as well as defence experts were witness to a series of demonstrations by MiG-35 which also carried out extreme manoeuvres in Indian as well as Russian conditions. Sources said the aerial manoeuvres demonstrated also involved "some which would not have been allowed to be carried out at any of the air shows" and that the Indian side were "thoroughly impressed".


According to Mikhail Pogosyan, general director of Russia's United Aircraft Corporation (UAC), MiG-35 has already conducted modifications as per requirement of the Indian Air Force (IAF), and Russia is ready for technology transfer as per Indian wishes.

Meanwhile, PV Deshmukh, managing director, MiG division, HAL, told DNA, that even as far as FGFA programme was concerned, there would be no problems about technology transfers with the Russians.


But he stopped short of putting anything on record about shape of things emerging if India were to select any of the American fighters which are competing for the MMRCA deal.


That is because the Americans, among the six contenders for the MMRCA deal, are the only ones feared to play havoc with technology transfer supports; and that's a crucial issue as far as India is concerned.




http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_aero-india-2011-is-india-flying-back-into-russias-arms_1506621

 

[black eagle]

Fighter deal bigger: 126 will rise to 260



It is already known as the world's biggest defence import deal in a long time. Now, it transpires, it is even bigger than that. The Indian Air Force is in the market to buy 126 Medium Multi-role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) from one of six foreign vendors bidding for the contract.

Over time, however, the IAF plans to buy 260 of them, Deccan Chronicle has learnt. That means, what has been talked about as a $10-12 billion deal will eventually fetch the winner of the contract close to $25 billion.

While the IAF floated a request for proposal (RFP) for only 126 fighters, sources privy to the armed forces' Long-Term Integrated Perspective Plan said that that document puts the number of medium fighter jets the IAF needs at is 260. Ministry of defence officials, however, refused to confirm that there was any plan beyond the current RFP.

America's Lockheed Martin (F-16) and Boeing (F/A-18), the 4-nation Eurofighter consortium (Typhoon), France's Dassault (Rafale), Sweden's SAAB (Gripen) and Russia's Mikoyan-Gureyvich (MiG-35) are locked in a high-intensity public relations as well as behind-the-scenes war to win the contract.



Air Chief P.V. Naik had on Thursday said that the Contract Negotiations Committee would achieve key milestones towards evaluating the packages offered by the various vendors in a week or two and that the contract would be ready for signing by September, except if "dissatisfied vendors put a spoke in the wheel".



That, sources said, looked almost inevitable given the size of the contract and what it could do to the fortunes of the winner. It could potentially keep alive assembly lines for some fighters from the 1970s/1980s vintage for another 30 years, ensuring that some 25,000 to 30,000 people would find employment in what are currently stricken economies in the US and Europe.



The sources also said that the eventual number of the frontline air superiority Sukhoi-30 MKIs from Russia in the IAF's fleet would also go up to 280.



The IAF would need these higher numbers of combat jets of different classes considering that it has to plan for threats coming from two fronts.


http://www.deccanchronicle.com/bengaluru/fighter-deal-bigger-126-will-rise-260-358

 

[Kunal Biswas]

 

[p2prada]

The 260 number seems like a rumour. Any increase in number is only possible after the first squadron enters service.

 

[rakesh]

Which is more expensive in MMRCA all aircraft?

 

[warriorextreme]

i am sure this number will keep on increasing over the years.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Which is more expensive in MMRCA all aircraft?

Typhoon & Rafale..

Though Dassault can change the price tag ( Brazil Case ).

 

[Tshering22]

Going by the 260 number increase, I don't think that Typhoon is set to win that since it will cost easily twice of the current $ 10-$12 billion to get that many. IAF better declare the bloody winner this year. Some reports are already disputing this saying that result will come only next year. It is already 6 years since MRCA started. We are losing pilots and planes already.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Going by the 260 number increase, I don't think that Typhoon is set to win that since it will cost easily twice of the current $ 10-$12 billion to get that many. IAF better declare the bloody winner this year. Some reports are already disputing this saying that result will come only next year. It is already 6 years since MRCA started. We are losing pilots and planes already.

I dislike this competition..

What IAF need is Cheap, Reliable, effective in all weather, fighter..

Rafale is best in my view, but if Dassault keep its mood off from MRCA it will lose, Besides IAF is getting MIR-2005 anyways..

Gripen and F-16 are good fghters, F-18 is also in the row..



What INDIA needs in near future is FGFA & AMCA without delays..

 

[rakesh]

According to wikipedia Rafale $84.48 million & Eurofighter Typhoon US$108 million.Which is the low life cycle cost ?

 

[ace009]

I am not sure the "reported prices" are anything to go by. I am pretty sure the quoted prices to MoD will be very different.
As for the 260 number - I seriously doubt it. However, for a long time MoD had mentioned that if IAF is happy with the MMRCA, they might increase the total order number to 200 total (126 + 74). There was also talk about splitting the order to two vendors - 126 for one and 74 for another.