MRCA News & Dicussions (IV)

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Agantrope

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i have been a staunch supporter of EF. But Rafale is also good. The only reason Rafale may not win is becoz of its engine. Though there have been reports that people want kaveri engine project to tie up with Scenma so that it can be used in LCA mk2 and AMCA. But the IAF opposes it stating that more research on kaveri engine will delay the LCA project. Hence IAF not interested in Kaveri engine and wants either EJ200 or Ge-414

Even the f-16 may not be selected since it has GE f110 engine. It is highly likely that the engine of LCA and mmrca will be same. SH-18, Gripen and EF are the likely candidates in that case. US govt has declined consultancy for LCA and even not approved the sale of GE 414. US is waiting for mmrca results. They will approve sale of ge414 only after either of the US fighters will be chosen. That too attached with strings and non ToT.

EF already providing consultancy for LCA, offers AESA codes and ToT. Perks offered by EF is lucrative enough to convince the establishment.

Just in case EF is not chosen, Rafale is the only worthy contender.

Mig35 is a powerful plane but am concerned with russian spares supply and maintenance costs. The only reason why India wants Mig-35 is becoz its access to AESA and it can use novator and brahmos missles on russian planes only. Besides to keep Russia happy. Hence a deal outside is mmrca is imminent.
To be frank IAF as well as DRDO is highly satisfied with consultancy provided by the EADS and the recent BAE Hawk deal and making HAL as marketing partner, IMO EF is leading the race. My only concern is there price. If they get their price rite, then its EF2000 in the IAF colours. Also it will create more than 10000 jobs in the Crunched EU Nations which will surely had much more leverage than what we needed
 

JBH22

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To be frank IAF as well as DRDO is highly satisfied with consultancy provided by the EADS and the recent BAE Hawk deal and making HAL as marketing partner, IMO EF is leading the race. My only concern is there price. If they get their price rite, then its EF2000 in the IAF colours. Also it will create more than 10000 jobs in the Crunched EU Nations which will surely had much more leverage than what we needed
Ef-2000 is good plane but would like to see the Rafale given that its predecessor Mirage-2000 is already in service btw its "reported" to pretty good A2G capabilities.Something which saved the day during kargil war with Mirage-2000 doing LGB attacks and using dumb bombs also
 

Agantrope

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Ef-2000 is good plane but would like to see the Rafale given that its predecessor Mirage-2000 is already in service btw its "reported" to pretty good A2G capabilities.Something which saved the day during kargil war with Mirage-2000 doing LGB attacks and using dumb bombs also
The only problem with the Rafale is the under-powered engine. If it comes with the M-88-3 Core then it will surely a strong contender for MMRCA along with the EF2000
 

EagleOne

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The MMRCA Competition: What Next?:angry_1:
read at
http://livefist.blogspot.com/2010/08/mmrca-competition-what-next.html
:angry_10:

Two days ago, I received a mysterious phone-call from a Russian journalist who claimed to have very reliable information that the Indian Air Force and the Defence Ministry had chosen the MiG-35 in the $12-billion medium multirole combat aicraft (MMRCA) competition, and had communicated as much to both MiG chief Mikhail Pogosyan as well as UAC president Alexey Fedorov. Cut. A well-known senior Indian defence analyst, who junketed off to Farnborough this month, assured me just before he left, that the Typhoon was going to sail through to the finish line -- I'd stopped listening by this time, but he said something about "knowing people in the know". Cut.

There's a lot of stuff swimming around out there about the MMRCA, and it's all tantalizing. Rumours of first blood.

At this point in the game, it's common for vendors to pick journalists' brains about what they're hearing. Well, what they're hearing is a lot of noise. A carefully crafted cacophony of permutation, combination and possibility -- some delectably elegant, some morbidly unthinkable. The campaign chiefs from Boeing and Lockheed-Martin, for example, have frequent briefings in Delhi -- thinly veiled opportunities for them to get exchange notes with reporters about where things stand on the MMRCA, what the rumours are, what they're picking up from "people in the know". All of the rumours are tantalizing in their potential to create massive upheaval -- political, technological, doctrinal, what have you. And in the run up to what is expected to be a downselect this year -- but what is also likely to not be a downselect at all -- I thought I'd put down everything I've heard in the last six three months. The structure, I should say right away, does not indicate a descending order of probability. And yet, it might.

For the purpose of clarity, let me state that the six competitors are the RAC-MiG MiG-35, the Boeing F/A-18IN Super Hornet, the Dassault Rafale, the EADS Eurofighter Typhoon, the Saab Gripen IN and the Lockheed-Martin F-16IN Super Viper.

SCENARIO 1: NO DOWNSELECT: All six contenders make the cut. Commercial negotiations begin with all six companies, and bam, they hand it to one. Right through the field evaluation tests (FET), there have been rumours of scrubs, snags, even hearsay that four of the six failed the test leg at Leh. All six competitors independently assured the press that their horses had come through beautifully and that all rumours of climb-rate disappointments and payload inadequacies were malicious nuggets passed around by "vested interests". Can't think of one person who isn't a vested interest, actually. If all six aircraft dodge the "downselect", it'll mean the FET gave the IAF nothing it could really work with in terms of defining what it really wants to go with. Always bear in mind the supremely incomparable airplanes the IAF is working to compare.

SCENARIO 2: NO DOWNSELECT, BUT PREFERENCE INDICATED: All six contenders make the cut, but are presented in the IAF's report to the MoD in descending order of preference. Best of both worlds -- everyone makes it past the first guillotine.

SCENARIO 3: THE NEGATIVE RECOMMENDATION: An interesting one. The IAF submits its report to the MoD along with a list solely indicating the aircraft it definitely doesn't want. The government then takes a political decision among the ones the IAF doesn't mind operating.

SCENARIO 4: SINGLE OUT: IAF chief PV Naik says the MMRCA field evaluation trials make for an international yardstick on how fighters should be evaluated the world over – a masterpiece of a testing templace. Most people believe him, because they're still trying to figure how a disparate line-up of aircraft can be meaningfully compared with a result-oriented focus. Many were shocked when Boeing elbowed in the Super Hornet into the MMRCA competition way back when the Mirage-2000-V was still in contention and widely believed to be the signature platform for the MMRCA. Things have changed drastically since. This scenario suggests that the IAF has come round to wanting a twin-engine platform. So goodbye F-16IN and Gripen IN.

SCENARIO 5: KEEP IT REAL, KEEP IT MEDIUM: An old scenario that's more wishful thinking than anything else. There's nothing "medium" about the Typhoon, Rafale and Super Hornet. So the downselect pushes forward only the MiG-35, the F-16IN and the Gripen IN.

SCENARIO 6: GRIPEN, MIG OUT: The downselect eliminates the Gripen IN and the MiG-35. The former, because it's Swedish (and woe betide any government that ever buys anything Swedish ever again). The rumour goes that the government has expressly instructed the IAF not to allow the Gripen past the FET phase. The latter because its Russian, and there's a limit to the whole eggs in one basket thing.

SCENARIO 7: NO OP AESA? GOODBYE!: Only the F-16IN and the F/A-18IN make it because they're the only two contenders with fully operational AESA radars (the NG APG-80 and the Raytheon APG-79 respectively). The others are work in progress, and the IAF doesn't want to take a chance. That the IAF has been super-impressed by both American AESAs doesn't hurt.

SCENARIO 8: TYPHOON OUT: A nightmare scenario for EADS, considering the weight of its pitch. This scenario suggests the Typhoon is ejected from the competition as a result of deficient air-to-ground performance, and that all promises aren't worth the cost of the airplane.

And these are just eight possible scenarios. I haven't mentioned the obvious permutations. It's going to be a yahtzee. Will keep updating this post as I hear more. And, of course, feel free to comment with more scenarios if you've heard any.
 
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luckyy

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BAE, HAL May Jointly Market Hawks Globally.

each passing day they are put more weight on EF ...
 

JBH22

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From Livefist article i see the writer omits the Rafale so is it considered out between let's hope its not the F-18 that they choose.No to US hardware would like a more independent choice i.e something that will not be affected when there's a political change in New Delhi. 1 thing it surely pinpoints the inadequacy of EF-2000 in A2G.

Mirage and Rafale


A short clip on the Mirage and Rafale but its in French.
 
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Agantrope

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From Livefist article i see the writer omits the Rafale so is it considered out between let's hope its not the F-18 that they choose.No to US hardware would like a more independent choice i.e something that will not be affected when there's a political change in New Delhi. 1 thing it surely pinpoints the inadequacy of EF-2000 in A2G.

Mirage and Rafale


A short clip on the Mirage and Rafale but its in French.
I am seriously worried about the climax of the MMRCA as another arm twist by the Unkil.
 
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JBH22

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I am seriously worried about the climax of the MMRCA as another arm twist by the Unkil.
Uncle Sam is doing the same lowly game give political support for UN permanent security council seat,vis a vis Pakistan in exchange for arms contract such as MRCA in short they want us to become their surrogates (chu*** bana raha hain)
 

arya

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guys we are wasting so much time god know how much time we will waste on mca
 

p2prada

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When basically flying over the himalayas, the normal winged aircraft will not be reliable as the Delta winged, because the in the low pressure area delta wing will have a perfect airmotion through its air inlets and the chances of engine failures will be minimal. This the reason why the Mirages performed well and MiGs got screwed. IMO opinion besides the geo-political advantages the sheer numbers will not allow the induct the normal birds here. So only Rafale and EF2000 are things whihc have the stuffs, EF2000 will offer more thing than what we think.
Dunno how you came up with that? Mig-29s have been used in Leh and have done splendidly during Kargil war. They ran CAP and escort while the Mirages, Mig-27s and Jags were bombing.

Mig-29 we have is not a fighter bomber and therefore cannot be compared to the role the Mirage-2000 played.

Your theory of delta wings superiority over Himalayas is fine, but that does not mean all non delta wing aircraft in our inventory are screwed. That screws Su-30MKI, Mig-27 and Jaguar. With the same logic the IL-76 got screwed too, because it does not have delta wing and cannot bomb.
 

samarsingh

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I have this nightmare that F18 SH would be selected and announced during Obama's November visit. I hope this nightmare does not become a reality.
We guys do a lot of China bashing. Lets learn something about patriotism from them: the Chinese government implemented sanctions on US firms which sold weapons to Taiwan. Now China is US's largest trade partner but that does not stop Chinese government from taking a decision concerning their security needs.
Companies which supply weapons to Pakistan should not be allowed to bid in Indian Defence deals. This is something which every country does. This US-India thing is not something to be too excited about, such a relationship would never be of equals. Nixon shook hands with Mao to curtail Soviet Union. US has been supporting Pakistan to limit India's influence in its neighbourhood.
The Soviet Union has dissolved, China has become the largest economic and military competitor to US and Pakistan has served its utility. The US needs a bigger Pakistan (which is what they see in India) in dealing with China.
but such a step cannot be in our long term interest.
hope better sense prevails and we select either EF or Rafale even if they cost more.
 

vishal_lionheart

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I have this nightmare that F18 SH would be selected and announced during Obama's November visit. I hope this nightmare does not become a reality.
We guys do a lot of China bashing. Lets learn something about patriotism from them: the Chinese government implemented sanctions on US firms which sold weapons to Taiwan. Now China is US's largest trade partner but that does not stop Chinese government from taking a decision concerning their security needs.
Companies which supply weapons to Pakistan should not be allowed to bid in Indian Defence deals. This is something which every country does. This US-India thing is not something to be too excited about, such a relationship would never be of equals. Nixon shook hands with Mao to curtail Soviet Union. US has been supporting Pakistan to limit India's influence in its neighbourhood.
The Soviet Union has dissolved, China has become the largest economic and military competitor to US and Pakistan has served its utility. The US needs a bigger Pakistan (which is what they see in India) in dealing with China.
but such a step cannot be in our long term interest.
hope better sense prevails and we select either EF or Rafale even if they cost more.

This is what I want to say?
 

neo29

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India may want the highest leverage it may get with MMRCA. US though offering its planes but not giving access to complete ToT. It may be noted that though the firms are selling SH-18 and F-16, it has still not been approved by the US congress. The US congress rejected consultancy for LCA and as for some reports are concerned are even going to reject or has rejected sale of ge414 engines. In that case buying US fighters is of no use coz ToT will definitely the US congress will reject the sale or atleast the ToT.

Most people say that US is the only one with operational AESA hence we should go for it but whats the use when we wont get source codes and strings attached to it. Wait for 2 3 years more and some other fighters are bound to give it.

India cant risk even choosing a US fighter and then wait for US congress approval in complete ToT. In case it rejects or surely not allow complete ToT, precious time is wasted and then the establishment has to choose another fighter. We already seen a repeat of tenders lately. We dont want the same here.
 

dineshchaturvedi

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I also agree, I cannot particularly trust USA and also they are very process oriented. As it is we have signed the P8 and C-130 deal without signing the necessary agreements, which might mean these aircraft's might be not as potent as we thought.
 

arya

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well i wish India select Rafael to give a upper hand IAF
 

JBH22

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There's lot of disinformation i see going on the Rafale many are saying its engine is underpowered. The Snecma M-88 engine is going to evolve further so i don't see why Rafale should not win. Its the best independent choice hope we say no to US F-18.
 

SHASH2K2

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If price is not an issue then am looking forward to Eurofighter. its still evolving and they are offering best tech transfer and partnership for future projets. We will gain a lot of technical know how from Eurofighter. They are looking for a partner not a buyer.
 

ppgj

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There's lot of disinformation i see going on the Rafale many are saying its engine is underpowered. The Snecma M-88 engine is going to evolve further so i don't see why Rafale should not win. Its the best independent choice hope we say no to US F-18.
though higher thrust is desirable for it's full payload, it has enough as of now with a T/W ratio in excess of 1. i agree with you. they are working on an "ECO CORE" too for the M-88 engine.

If price is not an issue then am looking forward to Eurofighter. its still evolving and they are offering best tech transfer and partnership for future projets. We will gain a lot of technical know how from Eurofighter. They are looking for a partner not a buyer.
shaksh,

EF typhoon is a great aircraft. but right now it is only optimised for A2A combat. A2G will first happen with german Typhoons in 2012. besides AESA will only happen about 2015 or thereabouts. i have in the past given the links.

now, Typhhon being one of the most agile in modern day does not bring any new capability than the SU 30MKI that IAF has in good many numbers. this applies to both "agility" and "A2G" - which the SU 30MKI already has!!!

however i think it will be good or better than SU 30MKI in 5 years time.

besides the "cost", the fact that we will be at a mercy of 4 nations also puts IMO - a question mark on it. India will have to balance all 4 which is a dampener compared to a single vendor.

what we need is good striker as a replacement for the Mig 27s and some Jaguars because A2A is taken care with SU 30MKI's overarching presence with upgraded Mig 29s in secondary role which is why i feel Rafale or FA 18E/F (provided the intrusive agreements are taken care) will suit IAF's MMRCA contest.
 
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