MRCA news and dicussions Part III

Discussion in 'Indian Air Force' started by Armand2REP, Mar 17, 2010.

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  1. Armand2REP

    Armand2REP CHINI EXPERT Veteran Member

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    Link to previous thread http://www.defenceforum.in/forum/showthread.php?5919-MMRCA-News-and-Discussions-Part-II



    Relax guy, the talk of lifting the arms embargo was under the Chiraq administration and he was pretty adament about it. Sarkozy mentioned it when he first came to office, but he quickly dismissed it when CCP slammed him for visiting the Dalai Lama. When France took the EU presidency we didn't even make it an issue.

    We never cleared it for Pakistan so you can again... relax.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 17, 2010
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  3. Armand2REP

    Armand2REP CHINI EXPERT Veteran Member

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    Rafale IR Signature

    A little something I put together...

     
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  4. pankaj nema

    pankaj nema Senior Member Senior Member

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    Some years ago French wanted to restart arms sales to China.
    A NATO meeting was called and The US said : " there will be CONSEQUENCES" to all its nato allies.
    Since then Nobody has again raised this matter.
     
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  5. Sridhar

    Sridhar House keeper Moderator

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    Germany and India:
    Cooperating to strengthen India's indigenous defence industry



    By Ambassador Thomas Matussek Published: March 2010


    [​IMG]
    New Delhi. India and Germany enjoy a solid partnership cemented through years of exchange on all levels. We share a long and burden-free history with a strong philosophical, emotional and cultural relationship. Our partnership is now more important than ever as India has become a key player on the global stage.




    In 2000 Germany established a strategic dialogue with India. It comprises major global issues such as combating terrorism, climate change, poverty reduction and reforming the UN, especially the Security Council. It also includes our thriving trade and commerce, as well as our excellent cooperation in the areas of science and culture.
    German President Horst Köhler addressed all of these issues in talks with his Indian counterparts during his recent state visit to India from 1 to 7 February. The key objective of his visit was to open new avenues for India and Germany to work together in developing a 21st century world policy based on mutual cooperation, while ensuring that national sovereignty and cultural diversity is respected.
    With his visit the President wanted to send a clear message: We are ready to enhance and deepen our strategic partnership in all fields.
    Democratic India lives in a very unruly neighbourhood.
    It is a responsible nuclear power in a very unstable region and that makes India an ideal partner for us in South Asia. We are planning together for the future and we are planning strategically. India and Germany enjoy mutual trust in the field of intelligence-sharing and other security-related areas. The recent terror attacks on the German bakery in Pune once again showed us the importance of free democracies standing together against the threat of terrorism.
    In 2006 we added a military dimension to our strategic dialogue.
    The German and Indian Defence Ministers signed a Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) which provides for the establishment of three bilateral working groups.
    While one working group focuses on strategic and policy matters on military issues, the second group deals with military cooperation between our armed forces. Finally, a third group covers defence technology and defence business cooperation, as well as the exchange of information on armament procurement projects and on defence research and development technology.
    Last year's schedule of Indo-German military cooperation encompassed some 40 different activities. One highlight was an Indo-German mountaineering expedition to Mount Shivling in which a team of instructors of the German Army Mountain Infantry and their Indian Army counterparts took part.
    The German members of the team were able to gain substantial experience with regard to operations at very high altitudes. This experience will be useful for further training and preparation of our troops if deployed in high altitude areas, for example in Afghanistan.
    In a reciprocal exercise in Germany, members of the Indian Army Mountain Infantry will get to experience the topography of the Alps. Further activities included training of military leaders, medical service during operations and logistics, to name but a few. The outcome of these joint exercises has been very positive.
    We should strive to increase joint activities between our armed forces wherever possible.
    Another key field for cooperation could be defence procurement. The German defence industry is upbeat when it comes to cooperating with the Indian Armed Forces and the Indian defence industry.
    Some projects have already been launched but there is considerable room for improvement. India is presently modernizing its armed forces on a large scale. In addition, India is striving to become less dependent on imports with regard to defence procurement. Therefore the limit of 70% of direct imports will be reduced to 30%. This goal is to be achieved by a more self-reliant defence industry and by enhancing the capabilities for development and production.
    In this regard, two recent tenders related to modernizing the Indian Air Force (IAF) could provide opportunities for cooperation with Germany and its defence industry.
    The European Aeronautic Defence and Space Company (EADS), in which Germany is the leading nation, is a bidder in the Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) of the IAF with the Eurofighter Typhoon. Its capabilities have recently been showcased in a unique simulator at the DEFEXPO 2010 in Delhi.
    This aircraft would be well suited for the needs of the Indian Air Force because it is designed for a low life-cycle cost. Additionally, it ranges at the top level with regard to performance, versatility and growth potential. It could be the appropriate solution for the IAF.
    Moreover, the Indian defence industry would benefit considerably. EADS wants India as a true industrial partner. By co-developing cutting-edge future capabilities, India could play a key role in tapping the plane's tremendous built-in potential. As a production and development partner for future enhancements, India could also customize the Eurofighter Typhoon to its specific requirements.
    Choosing the Eurofighter Typhoon would link India to Europe's largest defence programme.
    In addition to supporting the growth of India's indigenous defence industry, the four Eurofighter partner companies (besides EADS, the BAE Systems, Alenia Aeronautica and CASA) and their 400 suppliers will give India access to an international sourcing network of unparalleled scope. It would significantly expand India's defence supplier base.
    The second project is related to the Eurofighter. Eurojet, a German company, is bidding with its Eurofighter engine EJ 200 to enhance the performance of IAF's Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) TEJAS.
    Choosing this engine for the LCA would provide best value for money for the IAF and would help make better use of the inherent capabilities and growth potential of the LCA. With regard to transfer of technology, the Indian defence industry would get access to state-of-the-art jet engine technology and, in turn, could gain more independence in this field.
    Moreover, there will be synergistic effects if the Eurofighter is chosen as the MMRCA. Engaging with EADS and Eurojet would enable India to be in a position to produce the engines for its new MMRCA on its own. In my view, it is very important to take these aspects into consideration when deciding about the modernization of the Indian Armed Forces.
    Using only the take-away price as the paramount criteria may turn out to be less advantageous.
    German companies have an excellent reputation in the world, as they do in India. "Made in Germany" represents a seal of quality that stands for innovation and cutting-edge technology.
    There are huge possibilities for India and Germany to strengthen our cooperation, including in the defence sector. We see India as a long-term strategic partner and we are ready to offer far-reaching technology transfer. Hence, German defence companies could play a substantial role in helping India achieve its objectives of a more self-reliant defence industry and armed forces equipped with the latest technology to meet future challenges.
    The author is the German Ambassador in New Delhi.

    http://www.indiastrategic.in/topstories541.htm
     
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  6. Armand2REP

    Armand2REP CHINI EXPERT Veteran Member

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    Thats right, we own both MBDA and EADS. The CEO of both companies are French. If we want to kick Eurofighter out the door... so be it.
     
  7. Agantrope

    Agantrope Senior Member Senior Member

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    Well everything is ok, now it well known that the MRCA is for political milage.

    Russia was singed with lot of agreement and MiG-35 is a late bird.
    EF2000 I smell nothing, but foul as far as the price is concerned
    F-16 surely out of race after US' repeated donation to their ally
    So Rafael and Super Hornet is alone left. I think it will be more of Rafael then super hornet, because we dont want to fire our own arse with the US, anyhow they are going to help pakistan, so it the clear winner will be Rafael.

    But im waiting for the official confirmation on April this year :|
     
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  8. JAISWAL

    JAISWAL Senior Member Senior Member

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    sir, isn't french-pak deal of 1-billon $ for jf-17 deal will hamper its chances in mmrca runup as winner
     
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  9. nrj

    nrj Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    I'm still hopeful for Gripen NG....

    Yes, yes we know its away from the completion & maybe wont make due delivery on specific date but performance/Price ratio wise Gripen NG stands apart giving it advantage.

    Since aircraft offers potential development, we can order few batches with current proposed version & since upgradation is possible we can incorporate our western/home systems on it fabricating Gripen NG++ aircraft (somehow on grounds of popular MKI). With these modern systems Gripen NG++ will not be obsolete by 2015 (With IAF's POV that by 2015 MMRCA will be obsolete but LCA won't be) giving us major advantage even if it take little more delay in induction of FGFA (which can't be denied) And at the end of the day we will have a unique platform giving the real MULTI-ROLE advantage over not only neighbors but also over many countries.

    Now i know that we don't have any time to play 'upgrade upgrade' since the squadron strength is depleted & must be filled immediately. But what i see is we've already ordered atleast 42 new MKIs which will be sporting major modifications over current MKI delivered only by 2013, can act in the shoes of Muli-Role rather than Air Superiority. Although this logic can also be applied to any other contender offering substantial ToT other than Gripen...

    Eurofighter's statement that "MMRCA decision will be political" is nothing but the pressurization play indicating that 5 European countries are politically with India if Typhoon is selected. Punky bargain strategy i must say. We all know the decision will be politically influenced. It doesn't take a genius to guess it....

    Let's wait if MOD directly discards Saab for not following the guided procedure or they talk mutually for something else.

    Talking about other contenders,

    Splendid Rafale is being shadowed by French-Pak steady deal talks xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, established Naval platform brings vital attention.

    F-18 IN will be definitely preferred if early deliveries are demanded. ///////

    F-16, who wants the same piece of sh*t when far better toys available & pocketful of money? yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy

    Mig-35, we can get it any time aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

    Typhoon :| , is government so careless about my Tax-money to splurge on European favorability? cccccccccccccccccccc

    Gripen NG, mildly risky choice but can be proved lethal if managed with consistency (for which MOD has bad record ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, ).....




    Kirk out.
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2010
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  10. Armand2REP

    Armand2REP CHINI EXPERT Veteran Member

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    No, there is no deal. It hasn't cleared the security commission for sale due to fears of a Pakistani collapse. In effect, it strengthens the French hand as India doesn't want to see our missiles on PAF warplanes. In a negotiations setting, India will make clear that the deal will only be made with the guarantee we do not sell them to Pakistan. France doesn't really want to sell Pakistan our weapons just so they end up in China. It is a trump card to strengthen our hand for this year's negotiations.
     
  11. JAISWAL

    JAISWAL Senior Member Senior Member

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    Thanks sir i consider it in futur post
    As of now i did like ef-2000 to be a mmrca winner
     
  12. Sridhar

    Sridhar House keeper Moderator

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    Dassault: Sarkozy helps Rafale export prospects

    BY : Bloomberg
    French President Nicolas Sarkozy is helping the export prospects for the Rafale fighter jet, the head of plane maker Dassault said Wednesday.
    CEO Charles Edelstenne declined to comment on talks with Brazil or any other potential clients. But he said that thanks to support from Sarkozy, Dassault has “an important number” of export prospects — compared to none in 2007.
    “The sale of combat planes is a political act,” he said at Dassault’s headquarters outside Paris. “The Elysee is doing a superb job,” he said, referring to the French Elysee presidential palace.
    Dassault has taken orders for 180 Rafales, all of them destined for the French armed forces.



    http://idrw.org/?p=907
     
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  13. Tamil

    Tamil Regular Member

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    I personally like EF-2000 Tyfoon, its a game changer in wars
     
  14. slenke

    slenke Regular Member

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    Ehm, what?

    MBDA:
    HQ: Paris
    CEO: French
    Owners: BAE Systems; 37,5%, EADS; 37,5%, Finmeccanica; 25%

    EADS:
    HQ: Lieden, Netherlands
    CEO: French
    Owners: SOGEADE; 22,46%, Daimler AG; 22,46%, SEPI; 5,48%
    Listed on stockexchanges; Paris, Madrid and Frankfurt
    It should be noted that the company SOGEADE is 50% owned by the french government. This gives the french government a 11,23% share in EADS, which probably means only 11,23% of the votes.

    I hope you do know something about company structure and leadership. Just because the CEO is french doesn't mean that France have the real power, the shareholders do. In these cases France doesn't own 51% in neither company. So sorry, France can't "kick Eurofighter out the door.."
     
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  15. Armand2REP

    Armand2REP CHINI EXPERT Veteran Member

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    That is incorrect. Sogeade is owned 60% by the French government with 40% owned by Désirade, Sogeade is a French state holding company which controls all of its shares in EADS. Total Sogeade shares account for 25.10% of EADS. The French state also owns .06% of outstanding EADS shares.

    Here is a diagram from my latest shareholders report outlining largest ownership.

    [​IMG]

    Russian state banques also own 5% of EADS as well as 3.12% for Dubai holding which votes along with the French consortium of 25.16%. This has lead to the complete domination of EADS by France with the majoirty of the board and CEO positions as no voting shares can compete.

    I hope you know something about voting shares, corporate shares, state shares and forging dominance through strategic partnerships. France has come to the head of both EADS and MBDA through such means.
     
  16. slenke

    slenke Regular Member

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    That doesn't really matter to be frank. And the voting and nominating rights are a little more complicated if you take a hard look. (http://www.eads.net/xml/content/OF00000000400004/1/09/42508091.pdf).
    What does matter is Eurofighter GmbH.

    "Founded in 1986, based and registered in Germany, the company is made up of the major aerospace companies of the four Eurofighter partner nations.

    * 46%: EADS, [33% EADS Deutschland GmbH (Germany), 13% EADS CASA (Spain)]
    * 33%: BAE Systems (United Kingdom)
    * 21%: Alenia Aeronautica (Italy)"

    If you still claim that France has any real power over Eurofighter, please prove it. And even if it did, it would never risk a political meltdown with itself against Germany, Britain, Italy and Spain. Not even Sarkozy would be that daft.
     
  17. Armand2REP

    Armand2REP CHINI EXPERT Veteran Member

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    Let me spell out the relationship for you. Louis Gallois, CEO of EADS, was director of Dassault Aviation. EADS currently holds a 46.3% stake in Dassault. EADS only has a 43% stake in Eurofigher consortium. EADS is contractor for MRCA India. Stake in Rafale outweighs stake in Eurofighter. CEO still has close ties with Dassault. Gallois was placed as head of EADS to get as much French industrial offsets as possible and owes his position to France. End result is there is more money for EADS to sell Rafale and more support Gallois needs at home to retain his position.
     
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  18. StealthSniper

    StealthSniper Senior Member Senior Member

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    If India wants most advanced tech and most TOT transfer then (personally I think that's what MMRCA is about):

    Eurofighter
    SuperHornet
    Rafale

    If India wants to go a more political route then:

    Mig-35
    Super hornet
    Rafale
    F-16
    Eurofighter

    For me I want a fighter that is very advanced with generous tech transfer and alot of versatility and power. And for me (even though it's expensive) it's the Eurofighter, with the Rafale a close second.
     
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  19. slenke

    slenke Regular Member

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    EADS stake in Eurofighter is 46% (http://www.eads.net/1024/en/businet/defence/defence.html). Since EADS stake in EF isn't 51%, they don't have full control there. And, EADS even trying to pull out EF from MRCA is french wishfull thinking. This is something the germans, brits, italians and spanish just won't accept. In the real world (outside of France), that just won't happen, sorry.
     
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  20. StealthSniper

    StealthSniper Senior Member Senior Member

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    Some Eurofighter pics:


    [​IMG]



    [​IMG]
     
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  21. p2prada

    p2prada Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    This totally does not concern India. You are forgetting that ours is a buyer's market. We can buy whatever plane we want to and nobody is going to deny us the Meteor.
     
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