More trouble in MMRCA deal

Discussion in 'Indian Air Force' started by Jagdish, Apr 5, 2013.

  1. Jagdish

    Jagdish Regular Member

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    More trouble in MMRCA deal , are we really going to sign the deal or this is just a eyewash to drag deal after Union election till 2014


    The government's negotiations with Dassault on the $20-billion deal to buy 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft have come to a standstill after the French aviation firm informed authorities that it cannot be held responsible for the 108 aircraft to be produced by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL).

    What started as a point of difference between the defence ministry and Dassault over the role of HAL escalated after the firm told Indian negotiators that the government will have to sign separate contracts — one with Dassault for 18 'fly-away' aircraft and another with HAL, which will produce 108 jets under licence.

    Dassault said it will supply manufacturing kits and equipment to HAL on time after which the contract with HAL will take over and Dassault will play no further role.

    MoD is learnt to have completely rejected this suggestion and made it clear to Dassault that it will be solely responsible for the sale and delivery of all 126 aircraft. The deal will be only with Dassault and it will be the single point of contact, sources said.

    The problem has its roots in the request for proposal document, which mandated that the winning firm will supply 18 aircraft and licence manufacture 108 in India. Also, it specified HAL as the prime integrator for this purpose.

    After winning the bid, Dassault sought clarity on HAL's role and said it should have the freedom to decide the degree to which it intends to involve HAL. However, MoD clarified in January that HAL was mandated as the prime integrator and would remain so.

    This seems to be the cause of the trouble, sources said, as none of the bidders held any discussions with HAL before submitting bids. Therefore, HAL-related issues were possibly not factored into the bids and to now work out the terms and conditions with HAL could prove tough.

    It is learnt that Dassault has been at it for a while, but time is beginning to run out with sources indicating that MoD does not want this to linger beyond this month.

    Dassault wants HAL role separated, $ 20-billion jet deal hits air-pocket - Indian Express
     
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  3. bose

    bose Senior Member Senior Member

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    Dassault has some merit on their concerns... Who is going to manage the delivery aspects of the 108 planes to be build by HAL ? obviously it have to be HAL, then in that respect what is the role of Dassault ??

    I fear if the HAL with out accountability is going the way Scropine has faced the trouble of delivering on time...
     
  4. Armand2REP

    Armand2REP CHINI EXPERT Veteran Member

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    If Sukhoi can figure it out, why can't Dassault?
     
  5. Blackwater

    Blackwater Veteran Member Veteran Member

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    sabotage:sad::sad::sad::wave::wave:
     
  6. Blackwater

    Blackwater Veteran Member Veteran Member

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    I Agree, keeping in mind the history of HAL ,Dassault doen''t want to fell in the Jaal:laugh::laugh:
     
  7. ersakthivel

    ersakthivel Senior Member Senior Member

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    This circus is going on for seven years, with new issues cropping up all the time. if at all Dassault did not think through how it is going to manufacture the remaining 108 jets in India with HAl as a partner why did it bid in the first place?

    It was already thrown out of the MMRCA tender for submitting incomplete bid and came back later. Now saying we are not responsible for anything that is going to happen in HAl means it is effectively quitting the deal.
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2013
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  8. prestigiousindian

    prestigiousindian Regular Member

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    Guys we cannot go hard on Dassault its jus business for them. Even though they ll supply all the equipments they cant take the responsibility for thre HAL who in the past have messed with everything. The government wants only the HAL coz they have to make money out of this as Private players will do a very fine job with Dassault's assistance and too in time. Problem is with us..........
     
  9. arnabmit

    arnabmit Homo Communis Indus Senior Member

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    How could you possibly control manufacture by a 3rd party? would Dassault have executive administrative control over the HAL production line? no. Then how can Dassault give guarantee on something it has no control over?

    Can MoD guarantee immediate implementation of any corrective actions which Dassault suggests for production delays?

     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2013
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  10. venkat

    venkat Regular Member

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    It appears dassault doesn't want HAL to absorb Rafale engine tech, AESA Radar ,EW and other key Avionic systems which HAL can use for its other programs..if it is Reliance they can supply CKD kits and get it assembled with screw drivers in Bangalore or Gujarat and Dassault can get away with out actually transferring the technology to India even after siphoning billions of dollars!!! Its a crooked game being played by Dassault!!!
     
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  11. Shirman

    Shirman Regular Member

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    i believe that the current government in power don't want risk and chances to be taken after the vip helicopter mess and now is looking for excuses to pass on the game to next govt post 2014........way back in 2006 when it all started i predicted that India won't get its so called mrca fleet (back then it was called mrca instead of mmrca) anytime in 8-10 years just by looking at current defense procurement procedures and the govt. in power since 2004.........i am so true....

    On second note i was goggling the list of countries who actually ended their mrca requirements in this time-frame:-
    1.Saudis got typhoons and f-15 SA
    2.Australians got super hornets
    3.Thailand got gripens
    4.Morocco got latest f-16s
    5.Singapore got f-15sg
    6. Oman bought additional f-16s

    Brazil and India are same though we completed our evaluations and preferred rafale in 2012.........
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2013
  12. arnabmit

    arnabmit Homo Communis Indus Senior Member

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    There is no loophole in ToT. ToT has to be shared irrespective of who the assembler is. There is no dirty game. How would you like to be held responsible for something I am producing when you have no say over how I am producing it?

    Please refer to #8.

     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2013
  13. natarajan

    natarajan Senior Member Senior Member

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    so nothing going in favour of indian defence atleast can we match up with srilanka,i fear thats the reason many members here fear lankans and want india to bow down before lankans
     
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  14. p2prada

    p2prada Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    Like Venkat said. If Reliance becomes the Prime contractor then the deal becomes entirely useless since Reliance does not have any kind of aerospace experience. It will be worse than screw driver technology, rather nothing will come off it.

    Only HAL can pull off such a huge task and also reap the benefits for a longer period of time through other projects, if not LCA, then AMCA. Reliance's aerospace aspirations will merely end once all Rafales are delivered.

    If Reliance really wants to enter the aerospace industry then it will have to work as a sub-contractor to HAL or even Dassault and move their way up over the next few decades.
     
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  15. roma

    roma NRI in Europe Senior Member

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    pouring the 10 billion into tejas MK2 development and MCA would have been better and faster ?
     
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  16. Snuggy321

    Snuggy321 Regular Member

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    Tejas MK2 is nowhere to the Rafale, its not in the same class, we wont get ToT and no offset. And the MCA is nothing but a dream and without the technological knowledge it will remain so for ever.
     
  17. Snuggy321

    Snuggy321 Regular Member

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    Non of the mentioned deals was about +15 billion dollar, full ToT, full license production and 50% offset. Such things will take their time, we are talking about much much much much money and highly sensitive technology here, no side wants to lose anything.
     
  18. halloweene

    halloweene Defence Professionals Defence Professionals

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    Let us cool down, reheat from old news about companies responsability. Thales and Bharat just agreed on industrial and ToT parts (and that mean about 40% of fighter value, plz remember when you say Dassault one shoudl say Rafale consortium).
    joint venture owned at 76% by Bharat.
    60% production in India.
    85% ToT (rest is "strategic" aka nukes etc., depending on international treaties).
     
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  19. roma

    roma NRI in Europe Senior Member

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    i think it would be expected that mk2 is less capable than rafael - never was any argument about that
    but the issue was to have sufficient numbers of aircraft to counter the chinese JF17 and possibly their J20
    so in that context i believe many members of this forum would see the tejas mk2 and perhaps further modified as a good challenger equal to the chinese models i have mentioned
    in that respect pouring say a portion of the 10 billion into the tejas project would has been better

    and there's a double whammy now that we know that the rafael final operational commissioning date is such a long way off and we haven't even started , there's talk the deal hasnt even been signed - NOTHING DONE !!?? - so compared to all that BS, even Tejas is a better and faster way forward !!
     
  20. Snuggy321

    Snuggy321 Regular Member

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    India is way behind China in aircraft manufacturing, if we want to build future models which are competitive we need the technological know how and building facilities which we will get with the MMRCA deal. Not only that but also the best 4.5 gen fighter in the world, a strategic partner and 50% offset.
     
  21. ersakthivel

    ersakthivel Senior Member Senior Member

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    So please compare rafale and tejas mk-2 in the following aspects,
    1.Top speed,
    2.thrust to weight ratio,
    3.percentage of composies,
    4.radar range,
    5.Max possible long range BVR on each,

    And post how tejas mk-2 is inferior to rafale in all the above aspects, remember the engine tech on Rafale is not more modern than the Ge-414 INS 6 contracted for tejas mk-2.Range and payload are higher in RAFALE because it has two engines and extra amount of fuel along with more empty weight. So leaving the range and payload aside tejas mk-2 is as modern as RAFALE within it's operating range, with a price tag one third of the RAFALE(if you use full life cycle costs for comparison).

    When RAFALE induction matures in IAF , J-20 and J-31 will also be in mature stage of induction in PLAF.In such a scenario the 20 billion dolar price tag for a simple 4.5th gen fighter like RAFALE is a huge cost proposition.It will only lead to Russians asking a far higher price for PAKFA compared to RAFALE.
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2013
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