More Talwar Class for Indian Navy

[Yusuf]

If you kindly read the post you will find the answer lies in there..

GRSE is going to share the making of 15B. Many projects beset with delays is not a conspiracy to stall projects so that we can order from abroad. Delays are inevitable in India while we are looking to enforce monetary penalties on delays from Russia.

I have been to MDL. Although a couple or so years ago, we didn't have spare docks to make ships.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Again @Yusuf bhai, If you read my post i have told this and its fact as you talking my words back at me..

Conspiracy can be defined with great details but it is not related with this topic..

I have been to MDL. Although a couple or so years ago, we didn't have spare docks to make ships.

 

[Maharana]

Seriously, $3 Billion for 3 frigates...???

Problems with t-72s, cancelled SPIKE deal and now this. What is wrong with this day?

 

[Payeng]

Which one will come first 3 more Talwar class from Russia with love or the INS Kolkata???

 

[arnabmit]

Add FICV tender cancellation to the list as well

Seriously, $3 Billion for 3 frigates...???

Problems with t-72s, cancelled SPIKE deal and now this. What is wrong with this day?

 

[vram]

All Indian yards have their plates full IIRC. Shivalik is followed by Project 17A. 7 ships I think.

India also has its Kolkata class destroyers under Project 15A and to be followed up with 15B. Indian yards don't have any spare capacity.

What about Pipinav in Gujarat and the L&T shipyard in Katupalli ,TN?? Both are new ones with automated supply chain setups etc....
Morever L&T is renowned for efficieny. They are also fabricating the HULL for india higly top secret Nuclear subs. SO security can't be the issue...
The Shivalik class can be easily be built by them if expertise is allowed for deputation from GOVT shipyeards initially.
Why has the MOD not allowed hull fabrication and basic building of these class of vessels in Indian Private shipyard....the final configuration upgradation of sensitive systems can be done in GOVT shipyards if so required... Currently both these are standing ready hungry for orders....

 

[Payeng]

What about Pipinav in Gujarat and the L&T shipyard in Katupalli ,TN?? Why has the MOD not allowed hull fabrication and basic building of these class of vessels in Indian Private shipyard....the final configuration upgradation of sensitive systems can be done in GOVT shipyards if so required... Currently both these are standing ready hungry for orders....

I would like to know that does the following mentioned Shipyard have expertise in making warship of such comparable class and size?

 

[Yusuf]

What about Pipinav in Gujarat and the L&T shipyard in Katupalli ,TN?? Both are new ones with automated supply chain setups etc....
Morever L&T is renowned for efficieny. They are also fabricating the HULL for india higly top secret Nuclear subs. SO security can't be the issue...
The Shivalik class can be easily be built by them if expertise is allowed for deputation from GOVT shipyeards initially.
Why has the MOD not allowed hull fabrication and basic building of these class of vessels in Indian Private shipyard....the final configuration upgradation of sensitive systems can be done in GOVT shipyards if so required... Currently both these are standing ready hungry for orders....

Pipavav is an option but thanks to govt indifference to any private sector manufacturing a complete platform, pipavav is stuck to making commercial ships. Ditto with LnT. We have discussed about these two yards many times.

 

[Yusuf]

I would like to know that does the following mentioned Shipyard have expertise in making warship of such comparable class and size?

Pipavav has recently tied up with a British company. Pipavav has good infrastructure in their yard.

 

[vram]

Pipavav is an option but thanks to govt indifference to any private sector manufacturing a complete platform, pipavav is stuck to making commercial ships. Ditto with LnT. We have discussed about these two yards many times.

We easily dis regard these excellent oppurtunities for private players to flourish by calling it govt apathy. There more than enough expertise to go around in INDIA> infact people are migrating to different countries due to lack of high skilled oppurtunities here, Even Jayalalitha batted for opening katupalli to Indian military commisions.
What is the point of making a fuss over indiginization when such contracts are not given. So what if it might get delayed... so be it. Alteast its a learning process and home grown talent can shine and skillset will improve. In this case we will still be only be funding growth of careers in the shipping industry in russia and for all the trouble be accepting a delayed product most likely at the end of the day.
SAD state of affairs in INDIA today. Expected better out of the NAVY atleast...The ARMY is gone case anyways...

 

[Payeng]

INS Kolkata launched 2006 commissioned
Shavilik Class bit better then Kolkata @ 7 years per ship

Talwar comes more or less in 3 years time, India have many ambitious plans for Warship, I think 3 more Talwars are just follow on orders as per naval requirement other then risking all her eggs in one basket, yes we should buckle up with time taken per ship then mere filling up domestic orders for indigenous tag at the cost of defence preparedness.

 

[Payeng]

Rather then the indigenous tags for ship I would like to see India producing major sub systems and equipment domestically rather then just designing the hull of the ships. Make a few but appreciable products rather then engaging nation wide shipyards for cutting the hull and eating the space.

 

[afako]

Sound like Corruption involvement..

We successfully made Shivalik class and now we are not funding nor giving orders nor upgrading ship yards but trying to import more of these..

The Follow on on Order for Talwar was to be executed by a private shipyard under the guidance of Yantar shipyard to give the experience needed to Pipavav or L&T.

And the amount was $2 Billion a year back.

$1 Billion/Talwar? What significant improvements does it have over the last batch?

Brahmos, RBU 6000, Shitl SAM, 1 Medium Helo.

 

[vram]

Rather then the indigenous tags for ship I would like to see India producing major sub systems and equipment domestically rather then just designing the hull of the ships. Make a few but appreciable products rather then engaging nation wide shipyards for cutting the hull and eating the space.

Sir pray tell how can we graduate to advanced subsystems when we have not mastered the basics itself??
Also hull fabricating for advanced ships is NOT a simple technology, There are many years of expertise and hard work that go into it... Look at the Germans they have products that sell even if they are very expensive. But they did not reach that level of perfection by jumping the basics itself...
How long has the Vikramaditya taken??
Also the Kolkata class is being delayed because we are stuck with getting the major waepons subsystems in place... Where is brahmos2 ...and Barak 2 ??

This is the logic that is pushing India down. We thinking of directly transitioning into a knowledge and high tech country with out going through the effort of building and also getting people equipped for providing the basic infrastructure..
ITS good to hear about all hi fi stuff being produced but those are nich things.. No country in the World has been able to become a hi-tech manufacturer by bypassing the basig jobs...not china,Korea,Japan...name then .//

 

[Payeng]

Sir pray tell how can we graduate to advanced subsystems when we have not mastered the basics itself??
Also hull fabricating for advanced ships is NOT a simple technology, There are many years of expertise and hard work that go into it... Look at the Germans they have products that sell even if they are very expensive. But they did not reach that level of perfection by jumping the basics itself...
How long has the Vikramaditya taken??
Also the Kolkata class is being delayed because we are stuck with getting the major waepons subsystems in place... Where is brahmos2 ...and Barak 2 ??

This is the logic that is pushing India down. We thinking of directly transitioning into a knowledge and high tech country with out going through the effort of building and also getting people equipped for providing the basic infrastructure..
ITS good to hear about all hi fi stuff being produced but those are nich things.. No country in the World has been able to become a hi-tech manufacturer by bypassing the basig jobs...not china,Korea,Japan...name then .//

So why replace follow on order for Navy to a local shipyard? The industry is already in the learning process. I never advocated stopping learning but mastering it but it seems Navy have its own requirements.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

They didn't have any experience when designing Indian major subsystems now functional on various major hardware used by Indian Armed forces..

If we have such a mind set we may never able to go forwards, When this country got independent many raised question that, can Indian run it ? ..

I would like to know that does the following mentioned Shipyard have expertise in making warship of such comparable class and size?

=============================

They have many subsystems Indians, Ship today made in India have at-least 40-60% Indian Inputs..

In foregin countries also, A ship or a system does not have 100% subsystem of that country..

Rather then the indigenous tags for ship I would like to see India producing major sub systems and equipment domestically rather then just designing the hull of the ships. Make a few but appreciable products rather then engaging nation wide shipyards for cutting the hull and eating the space.

 

[WMD]

The new set of frigates will be more technologically advanced and each of the next three Talwar-class frigates will be equipped with BrahMos missiles. The existing Talwar-class boats and the upcoming INS Trikand are not BrahMos-equipped because they were designed before the BrahMos naval variant could be developed.

Therefore the greatest USP of the upcoming order for three more Talwar-class frigates would be that for the first time these frigates will be fitted with BrahMos. "This is the single most important reason why the Russians don't really have to worry whether they are going to get this order or not," a source said on condition of anonymity.

India had awarded a $1.6 billion contract to the Yantar shipyard in 2006 to build three modified Talwar class for the Indian Navy. The final trials of INS Trikand have already started in the Baltic Sea. Yantar shipyard spokesman Sergei Mikhailov has been quoted in a recent RIA Novosti report as saying that INS Trikand was cleared for final state trials on April 4, 2013 which should be completed by this month end.

The Indian Navy got a major fillip to its firepower with the arrival of its latest acquisition INS Tarkash at Mumbai on December 27, 2012. Built by the Yantar Shipyard, Kaliningrad, Russia, INS Tarkash was second of three project 1135.6 (follow-on Talwar class) ships ordered by Indian Navy, the first being INS Teg which joined the fleet in June 2012.

Out of the 6 Talwar class frigates, the 2nd batch has BrahMos missile.
So Teg,Tarkash and Trikand also have BrahMos missile system.

IMO this new order is for faster induction of capable naval vessels to replace older vessels like the Rajput destroyers and the older batch frigates like Nilgiri, Godavari class. the dream of a 200 ship navy.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Despite we have issues, In Military prospective imports are not a solution..

In War we have to make ships faster than we lose them, that is hard fact of war..

 

[vram]

So why replace follow on order for Navy to a local shipyard? The industry is already in the learning process. I never advocated stopping learning but mastering it but it seems Navy have its own requirements.

IF the Indian navy doesn't provide the orders then who is going to? We have to start some where.

And also its not that we have not built such kinds of vessels ever before. The Shivalik is available as a blueprint.Those invloved in building the Shivalik can go as project managers for this new requirement.
In this way the mistakes are not repeated and the same time more number of people gain the skillset and hence capability in India grows.

I mean its not like this new Kiravak class has any new thing not done in the Shivalik.
Brahmos- CHeck
Stealth design - Check
Improved fabrication methods including block building - check
Advanced subsystems and radar integration - Check
NBC warfare safety system and advanced crew quater's - Check

I mean everything was done for Shivalik...Satpura etc...Nothing new here that we have to go to russia for..

 

[Payeng]

If every order for the navy at the sake of domestic training is stuck with indefinite delay you are left only with sail powered ships to defend the nation, Talwar is follow on order and we are reading about time penalties, that acts as a Plan B then putting ll eggs in a basket, more over 1 billion tag is debatable.