More Mig-29's and Mirage 2000's???

Discussion in 'Indian Air Force' started by Crusader53, Jun 1, 2010.

  1. Crusader53

    Crusader53 Regular Member

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    Considering it will be years before we see the MMRCA Winner is Squadron Service in any real numbers. Should India purchase more second hand Mirages and Migs in the interm??? Any thoughts from the members....
     
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  3. Armand2REP

    Armand2REP CHINI EXPERT Veteran Member

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    There may be some M2000s but no one wants second hand MiGs. There are no upgraded SMTs that will come on the market and needless to say, nations are dumping the 29As like a disease.
     
  4. nrj

    nrj Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    I don't see any reason to go for second hand Mirages/Migs. Current Mirages will go for up-gradation. MKIs orders are being delivered smoothly. Plus by 2015-16 PAK FA will arrive along with LCA MK-II so need to buy second hand fighters at this moment.
     
  5. Armand2REP

    Armand2REP CHINI EXPERT Veteran Member

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    MKI orders are coming at half speed. It needs to be doubled with a second factory line. PAK FA will not enter Indian service before 2017 and likely well into the 2020s. IAF has a severe fighter shortage and with the delays in MRCA, a stopgap is needed.
     
  6. nrj

    nrj Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    Its world known & recognized at all levels that IAF has fighter shortage.
    Wise thing is to bring up new Sukhoi facility. and/or order more LCA-MK1.
    PAK FA should enter prod line by 2016.
     
  7. Singh

    Singh Phat Cat Administrator

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    If the price is right and crafts are available, esp M2K's make plenty sense.
     
  8. Crusader53

    Crusader53 Regular Member

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    Sorry, you will never see PAK-FA's or LCA MK 2's in Service by 2015-2016 time frame..........figure 2020 at the earliest.
     
  9. AJSINGH

    AJSINGH Senior Member Senior Member

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    Look the ability of IAF to induct new aircraft ,influences the speed of manufacturing more MKI, so if IAF can induct only 18 MKI per year ,then only 18 MKi wil be made by HAL
     
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  10. nrj

    nrj Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    Its the optimistic view for prod green signal. Only time will tell the absolutes.
     
  11. AJSINGH

    AJSINGH Senior Member Senior Member

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    well even IAF chief says that by 2017-2018 ,we should induct first PAK FAGA
     
  12. sob

    sob Moderator Moderator

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    I say we should go in for the M2000 from Abu Dhabi or Qatar ( I am not sure which country) Negotiate hard with these countries and with the long experience IAF has with these birds, induction will be very fast and some of the shortages can be plugged.
     
  13. ppgj

    ppgj Senior Member Senior Member

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    i am all for it. :)

    india has roughly 3 squadrons each of these. both are being upgraded. while mig 29s will be upgraded to SMT standards, mirages will go to M2K - 5 standard and both are frontline aircrafts and will take on any aircraft in the neighbourhood.

    IAF has extensive overhaul facility for the mirages, which were built, in the hope of procuring more of these aircrafts (post Kargill).

    remember the present MMRCA contest was originally was only for procuring mirages!!!

    on the other hand Mig 29s have been in operation since 80s and still have lot of life left in them despite IAF flogging these. here again IAF has extensive overhaul facility for these too. added to this HAL already manufactures RD-33 series 3 engines - under license, basically for the airforce lot.

    however considering 45 Mig 29K's on order for the Navy, it would be feasible and wise to arm the SMT's too with RD 33MK's, which, besides improving on the smoke factor (which was a negative with RD 33's in the past) also improves the engine life significantly. this will mean commonality and reduced cost overall and effective in the long term.

    IOW any additional Mig 29's need to be Mig 29K standard.

    besides familiarity with both means no added infra burden for training purposes and easy move over too.

    Russia and France have been extensive partners with indian armed forces and IAF finds, IMO, both to be reliable and committed partners.

    logistical, maintainence, spares, commonality and training wise procurement of these 2 aircrfats will mean -

    1. less financial burden on IAF.

    2. optimum use of existing infra.

    3. ease of training and moveover for the pilots.

    the money thus saved may put to better use on LCA mark 2, possibly with redesigned wings and landing gear for better internal fuel and more hard points ala gripen NG, and AMCA in the future.

    any new aircraft via MMRCA means added burden in terms of creating a whole new logistical footprint, maintainence facilities, training methods/simulators besides inventory related problems and a huge cost.

    it is understandable from technology POV that MMRCA does bring in some factors. this again is moot considering India is already collaborating with Israel on many projects (where india lacks) which may be utilised on these very machines to keep them up to date.
     
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  14. AJSINGH

    AJSINGH Senior Member Senior Member

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    apparently there are plans of IAF buying Mirage2000 from gulf countries and not MIg29SMT
     
  15. neo29

    neo29 Senior Member Senior Member

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    we should buy 30 40 fighters in govt to govt deal to arrest the shortage. mirage and mig29 are the only second hands that we may get quickly.
     
  16. mayfair

    mayfair Elite Member Elite Member

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    I wonder if we can consider replacing some of our Mig29s with "MKIsed" Mig-35s independently of MMRCA? We will be getting an improved platform to supplement our frontline fighter and provide the much needed depth on either fronts. Would be cheaper than going for second hand Mirage2000-5/9s and then paying a bomb to the French to get them upgraded.
     
  17. Singh

    Singh Phat Cat Administrator

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    @sob and ajsingh -> That deal has been in the air for close to half a decade. PAF and IAF were both competing at one time for that purchase. IAF was possibly interested in such a deal just to thwart PAF from getting their hands on it. I believe our dilly-dallying over M2k (original MRCA dea)l way back has cost us dearly.

    @ppgj -> The Mig29s we have cannot be extensively upgraded due to physical constraints.

    @neo29 -> Seconds are not easy to come by and we are not easy to please.

    @mayfair -> I am not entirely convinced if the payment we are paying to the French for M2k is solely for the crafts ? Mig 35 is technically still a prototype, and Mig is just about surviving.
     
  18. mayfair

    mayfair Elite Member Elite Member

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    But Singh Sahab that's my point. If Mikhoyan is barely surviving, should we not take advantage of this by buying out their repository of knowledge and use them for our benefit. It would not do for us to have China swoop in and get their hands on all that technology. In any case we are purchasing the Mig29K combat aircraft form them and they share a great deal with Mig 35 from the radar to engines to thrust vectoring systems. If we were to replace our Mig 29 fleet with Mig 35s +ToT, without compromising the MMRCA competition then why not? Not only do we get optimal replacements but also a significant forward leap on our current technological nous in combat aviation.
     
  19. ppgj

    ppgj Senior Member Senior Member

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    i know they can't be extensively upgraded. if you read my post, i said clearly, they are being upgraded to SMT standards. any additional procurement should conform to MIG 29K standard.

    however considering RD 33MK only differs in the combustion chamber (this is wholly internal element. IOW no outside physical change in dimensions IMO) as compared to RD 33 S3 (which HAL is license manufacturing) for the reduced smoke factor, it would be wise to put them on the our airforce Migs is what i said. besides commonality, maintainence, training related advantages - it will give an additional 8 % extra thrust.

    i don't think putting RD 33MK inside our Mig 29's would be an issue.
     
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  20. mehrotraprince

    mehrotraprince Regular Member

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    No need to buy second hand aircrafts, they too will need upgradation, means more time, more money and less life.

    At present our neighbours don't have enough infrastructure, weapons, money and logistics to openly challenge us in full scale war.

    Mig units were not just opened for Mig-29K but it was preplanned for development of Mig-35 and its induction in IAF. So Mig-35 is going to come to India either this way or that way.
     
  21. Agantrope

    Agantrope Senior Member Senior Member

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    Second hand flight will increases the operational maintenance costs. But still if it is airworthy for atleast 10-15 years we can happily go with that till the LCA Tejas mk-II takes a IOC.
     

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