More MiG 29K aircraft to be inducted into Navy: Admiral Verma

[p2prada]

I am guessing IAC-2 will be a regular ADS like Vikrant. Nothing very flashy and will be quicker to build and induct rather than build the 60k ton carrier right now. The last I heard(2010) a second class of ship is still in the drawing board.

 

[K Factor]

in fact mig-29 for naval role is also a big mistake. mig-29 even after so many improvement will seems to be an out-dated fighter. just imagine mig-29 fighter in 2020 against su-33 of plan.

naval lca can be inducted in good no. moreover i want regular lca to be inducted into navy to give shore protection and island protection so as to relive IAF of cap over navy assets in war

Dumb.
If we need shore based naval air-craft for CAP over Navy assets, why not build MKIs for the Navy? Point is to have Naval Air-power projection abilities from a carrier, far away from Indian shores.

And when did the PLAN acquire Su-33?

Do you have any idea of the amount of changes and tweaks required to navalise (make carrier capable) a multi-role fighter, point being, we are not likely to see a Chinese naval copy of Su-27. Since China started working on the Varyag, we need to wait and see what aircraft it deploys on it once it is operational (another 4-5 years minimum).

IAC-2 will come around 2022, it will be a super carrier with EMALS and E-2D. Regarding the aircrafts i would prefer a fifth gen than some 4.5+ gen fighter which means naval version of Pakfa or AMCA.

Get real. EMALS.
1. How many operational carriers in the world have EMALS?
2. How many countries have the know-how and technological ability?
3. Will US share such cutting edge tech with us in at least the next 10 years? - NO.

Not sure of AMCA, But F-35 is possible. May be FGFA if possible !!

Why should India go in for the F35? Please explain why you think it is possible?

I am guessing IAC-2 will be a regular ADS like Vikrant. Nothing very flashy and will be quicker to build and induct rather than build the 60k ton carrier right now. The last I heard(2010) a second class of ship is still in the drawing board.

Yep, I second that.

 

[mayfair]

And when did the PLAN acquire Su-33?

Do you have any idea of the amount of changes and tweaks required to navalise (make carrier capable) a multi-role fighter, point being, we are not likely to see a Chinese naval copy of Su-27. Since China started working on the Varyag, we need to wait and see what aircraft it deploys on it once it is operational (another 4-5 years minimum).

I believe they called it J-15? They got one or two Su-33 prototypes from Ukraine and in their typical Chinese fashion reverse engineered it to make J-15. Not sure about its performance though.

 

[K Factor]

I believe they called it J-15? They got one or two Su-33 prototypes from Ukraine and in their typical Chinese fashion reverse engineered it to make J-15. Not sure about its performance though.

I will believe it when I see it flying.

 

[agentperry]

Dumb.
If we need shore based naval air-craft for CAP over Navy assets, why not build MKIs for the Navy? Point is to have Naval Air-power projection abilities from a carrier, far away from Indian shores.

And when did the PLAN acquire Su-33?

Do you have any idea of the amount of changes and tweaks required to navalise (make carrier capable) a multi-role fighter, point being, we are not likely to see a Chinese naval copy of Su-27. Since China started working on the Varyag, we need to wait and see what aircraft it deploys on it once it is operational (another 4-5 years minimum).


Get real. EMALS.
1. How many operational carriers in the world have EMALS?
2. How many countries have the know-how and technological ability?
3. Will US share such cutting edge tech with us in at least the next 10 years? - NO.


Why should India go in for the F35? Please explain why you think it is possible?


Yep, I second that.

chinese have bought su-33 planes and have designated them flying shark some j-15 name. mkis for air superiority and thus using them naval asset protection will be costly. they are required in high intensity conflicts where they will be used to limits. raids over naval bases should be tackled by good interceptors cum anti ship capable( ground attack) fighter planes.

shores are always protected by ground based planes and not carrier planes, they were protected by them and will be protected by them in future also. even today we have jaguar for shore protection and base CAP.

 

[agentperry]

I will believe it when I see it flying.

flight testing video on net

 

[K Factor]

chinese have bought su-33 planes and have designated them flying shark some j-15 name. mkis for air superiority and thus using them naval asset protection will be costly. they are required in high intensity conflicts where they will be used to limits. raids over naval bases should be tackled by good interceptors cum anti ship capable( ground attack) fighter planes.

OK, so your point is that in case of hostilities, we should leave HAVCAP for IN vessels to lesser fighters than our best to save cost?
Just remind me what the purpose of CAP is........

Which one is the better interceptor.... M29K or N-LCA (not operational or proven)?

shores are always protected by ground based planes and not carrier planes, they were protected by them and will be protected by them in future also. even today we have jaguar for shore protection and base CAP.

How are shore based aircraft relevant when the thread is about carrier capable aircraft?

 

[agentperry]

OK, so your point is that in case of hostilities, we should leave HAVCAP for IN vessels to lesser fighters than our best to save cost?
Just remind me what the purpose of CAP is........


How are shore based aircraft relevant when the thread is about carrier capable aircraft?

naval assets means naval base in this context. ins hansa, cochin dock, grse etc

 

[K Factor]

naval assets means naval base in this context. ins hansa, cochin dock, grse etc

And IAF would leave this to the IN in case of an air strike......?
Next.

And you didn't answer

How are shore based aircraft relevant when the thread is about carrier capable aircraft?

 

[plugwater]

Get real. EMALS.
1. How many operational carriers in the world have EMALS?
2. How many countries have the know-how and technological ability?
3. Will US share such cutting edge tech with us in at least the next 10 years? - NO.

Zero, How many countries operate P-8 ? Did not we sign a contract to buy 8 of those ?

IN is interested in EMALS since we have another 10+ years to build an aircraft carrier big enough to fit EMALS, i am confident we can get EMALS.

Regarding E-2D, US already cleared the sale to us, which is still not operational.

Why should India go in for the F35? Please explain why you think it is possible?

If DRDO again fails to deliver NMCA by 2022 and the idea of naval pakfa is dropped then we have no choice other than F-35.

 

[agentperry]

And IAF would leave this to the IN in case of an air strike......?
Next.

why iaf should be burdened of distributed and scattered naval bases. IAF is not so big putting china and pakistan together. in case of war even if china dont come in to help pakistan but they wil surely make border hot by aggressive intrusions which require deterrence and be-fitting reply.
and are suggesting that iaf should look for paki jets on western border, chinese jets on eastern and northern border, protect keys cities from raid and then CAP over scattered naval bases and dockyard.

either make bi/tri force bases to deter any mischief by enemy or atleast have few jets near or on the base under navy command.

in case of enemy attack, what you say will require navy contacting air force, air force seeing what they have to offer( they dont have surplus aircrafts, adding to it is the plan of attack that usually involve whole inventory.) if they have anything to spare they will dispatch it else they will try to arrange few from far off bases.
in all it means either airforce reduce their fleet available for aggression and deploy them for defensive role.

or

navy maintain ground protection fleet apart from SAMs.

and yes bombay high protection is under navy, so what you propose:- deploy a carrier for whole of the war time near it?

 

[K Factor]

Zero, How many countries operate P-8 ? Did not we sign a contract to buy 8 of those ?

IN is interested in EMALS since we have another 10+ years to build an aircraft carrier big enough to fit EMALS, i am confident we can get EMALS.

Regarding E-2D, US already cleared the sale to us, which is still not operational.

I have heard this argument before. What cutting edge tech does the P8I and the E2D have?
The biggest bone of contention is the ToT, which is likely to least happen with US. Both will be delivered built, and under a downgraded version of CISMOA.
I do not see the EMALS for IAC2 being built in a US shipyard, and I don't see ToT happening either. Tell me if I am missing something.

If DRDO again fails to deliver NMCA by 2022 and the idea of naval pakfa is dropped then we have no choice other than F-35.

Speculation at best.

 

[plugwater]

I have heard this argument before. What cutting edge tech does the P8I and the E2D have?
The biggest bone of contention is the ToT, which is likely to least happen with US. Both will be delivered built, and under a downgraded version of CISMOA.
I do not see the EMALS for IAC2 being built in a US shipyard, and I don't see ToT happening either. Tell me if I am missing something.

P-8 and E-2d have technologies which no other countries has, that is good enough for me
We should not expect to get TOT for every purchases we make that too very high tech weaponry like this.
IN must have thought about every aspects of getting EMALS including zero ToT before showing their interest in it.

Speculation at best.

You asked for a possibility i gave you one, since we are talking about future we can only speculate.

 

[Zebra]

I have heard this argument before. What cutting edge tech does the P8I and the E2D have?
The biggest bone of contention is the ToT, which is likely to least happen with US. Both will be delivered built, and under a downgraded version of CISMOA.
I do not see the EMALS for IAC2 being built in a US shipyard, and I don't see ToT happening either. Tell me if I am missing something.

Speculation at best.

If you do not mind , I would like to ask one question about ToT ,

Did we make any new 155mm guns using the ToT which we got from AB Bofors ?
OR
any weapons the ToT we got from any other company ?

I think ToT is a simple excuse to give , for not buying from some one .

 

[ace009]

IAC-2 will come around 2022, it will be a super carrier with EMALS and E-2D. Regarding the aircrafts i would prefer a fifth gen than some 4.5+ gen fighter which means naval version of Pakfa or AMCA.

Not much hope for NLCA, it is being done only cos we can learn so much about how to develop a naval variant so when we move to develop a naval MCA we wont find it much difficult.

Dude - don't mention daydreams/ wet dreams. EMALS is extremely complex and expensive to develop/ build and even USN does not put much hope of getting it before 2020. India has yet to develop a regular steam-driven catapault and a naval aircraft - while you are talking about EMALS for IAC2!

As for 5th generation aircraft by 2020, if FGFA is ready for flight trials by then, it would be progress. AMCA will be in prototype development status by then, forget about a naval version.

For IAC1, the plan was and is to have a total of 35 aircraft - 16 Mig-29K, about 12 N-LCA and rest helos. The initial 6 N-LCA is jsut to kickstart a production line so that the production problems can be sorted out. The rest of the lot would contain the F414 engine and be similar to LCA mk2.

IAC2 will probably have N-LCA mk2 and some Mig-29Ks.

IAC-3 will be a steam launched CATOBAR, where N-MMRCA will operate from. Probably M-rafale or F-35 (5th gen).

When India builds IAC-4 and IAC-5, and N-AMCA is ready, only then we will see an Indian 5th gen aircraft. There is and will be no plans for a N-FGFA - the FGFA will be too large even for a steam CATOBAR.

If EMALS ever comes to India, it will be post 2040 maybe IAC-6.

 

[plugwater]

Dude - don't mention daydreams/ wet dreams. EMALS is extremely complex and expensive to develop/ build and even USN does not put much hope of getting it before 2020. India has yet to develop a regular steam-driven catapault and a naval aircraft - while you are talking about EMALS for IAC2!

First ship of Gerald R Ford class will have EMALS that too by 2015 and Queen Elizabeth class will be fitted with EMALS after that(i read it somewhere). Why do you want us to learn about catapult ?

As for 5th generation aircraft by 2020, if FGFA is ready for flight trials by then, it would be progress. AMCA will be in prototype development status by then, forget about a naval version.

I am not talking about 2020, Its 2022 that i am talking about. We will go for Pakfa model for carriers not two seater FGFA. Naval MCA is possible too by 2022.

For IAC1, the plan was and is to have a total of 35 aircraft - 16 Mig-29K, about 12 N-LCA and rest helos. The initial 6 N-LCA is jsut to kickstart a production line so that the production problems can be sorted out. The rest of the lot would contain the F414 engine and be similar to LCA mk2.

IAC2 will probably have N-LCA mk2 and some Mig-29Ks.

IAC-3 will be a steam launched CATOBAR, where N-MMRCA will operate from. Probably M-rafale or F-35 (5th gen).

When India builds IAC-4 and IAC-5, and N-AMCA is ready, only then we will see an Indian 5th gen aircraft. There is and will be no plans for a N-FGFA - the FGFA will be too large even for a steam CATOBAR.

If EMALS ever comes to India, it will be post 2040 maybe IAC-6.

There wont be any N-LCA MKII, you may not agree but you have to wait and see.

ACM has said IAC-2 wont happen soon, so i can say they will start construction by 2015 and it may come operational by 2022 as our first super carrier.

IAC-2 with EMALS, E-2D and some EA-18G(this might not happen)will come by 2022.

 

[K Factor]

why iaf should be burdened of distributed and scattered naval bases. IAF is not so big putting china and pakistan together. in case of war even if china dont come in to help pakistan but they wil surely make border hot by aggressive intrusions which require deterrence and be-fitting reply.

Which Indian Naval bases will be under threat of an "air-strike" in case of hostilities with the two adversaries you mentioned? Answer is some bases on the the west coast, none on the east coast. PLAN simply doesn't have capability to mount "an air-strike" on any east coast.

And are suggesting that iaf should look for paki jets on western border, chinese jets on eastern and northern border, protect keys cities from raid and then CAP over scattered naval bases and dockyard.
either make bi/tri force bases to deter any mischief by enemy or atleast have few jets near or on the base under navy command.

Also, you do not need to fly CAP 24x7. There is radar and intel (Electronic and Human) which dictates where your assets should be. India does not have a marine/naval air wing big enough to provide CAP over all coastal bases and hence, they will fall under IAF protection automatically.
Also, you are digressing - are we talking about air defense under an attack or just CAP (which is combat air PATROL?

in case of enemy attack, what you say will require navy contacting air force, air force seeing what they have to offer( they dont have surplus aircrafts, adding to it is the plan of attack that usually involve whole inventory.) if they have anything to spare they will dispatch it else they will try to arrange few from far off bases.
in all it means either airforce reduce their fleet available for aggression and deploy them for defensive role.

You mean to say that AIF would be sleeping and would need a call from the Navy for help?
Also, which doctrine states that all your aircraft will be deployed on active duties leaving none for defensive roles?

and yes bombay high protection is under navy, so what you propose:- deploy a carrier for whole of the war time near it?

Its an asset out at sea, not the same as Indian Mainland.

 

[K Factor]

If you do not mind , I would like to ask one question about ToT ,
Did we make any new 155mm guns using the ToT which we got from AB Bofors ?
OR
any weapons the ToT we got from any other company ?
I think ToT is a simple excuse to give , for not buying from some one .

Bofors was 30 years ago. It is not a comparison that you can use in this context.
ToT is not an excuse or a fancy word, its a necessity for
1. Reducing dependencies on external supply chains in case of hostilities. Do you know that during one of the Arab-Israeli wars, IsAF ran out of AA missiles? They needed to brought in from America on an emergency basis using transports.
This would not happen if you are manufacturing it domestically.
2. Develop your indigenous industries and their tech.
3. Provide employment to our people by shifting some of the manufacturing to India.

Edit: Bofors deal is a poor example, I hope you will be able to find other examples. Due to factors I do not wish to discuss here, it should not be used to benchmark a current deal.

 

[K Factor]

IAC-2 with EMALS, E-2D and some EA-18G(this might not happen)will come by 2022.

No harm in hoping and dreaming.
BTW, it is rumored that 12 Growlers can cause a blackout in an entire country the size of Pakistan.

 

[plugwater]

No harm in hoping and dreaming.
BTW, it is rumored that 12 Growlers can cause a blackout in an entire country the size of Pakistan.

Interesting!! Can you tell us more about this blackout ?