Modernisation for Indian 105mm Light Field Guns.

[Decklander]

Our naval guns of same caliber have rate of fire more than that of an entire battery of IA. We do it bcoz our gun barrels are cooled by sea water but IA does not have that kind of cooling system available so what 18 guns do in one minute of sustained fire i.e 6rnds/min equivalent to 108 rnds/min naval guns of equivalent calibre fire nearly 120 rounds. The 4.5 inch gun on old INS Bias, I had fired 26 rounds in one minute as turret commander as a sea cadet during training way back in 1986. two rounds more than the limit of the gun. That gun had manual loading and a system of ww2 vintage. Our 75mm guns fire over 180 rounds/min sustained.

 

[W.G.Ewald]

Base bleed - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The principles were developed in a joint effort between the Swedish 'Försvarets forskningsanstalt' (Defence Research Agency), FOA and the artillery bureau at Kungliga MaterielFörvaltningen, KFM (later known as Försvarets MaterielVerk, FMV) in the latter part of the 1960s in order to increase the range of the coastal artillery. By 1966, it had been concluded that a small, slow-burning charge at the base of the projectile would positively reduce the vacuum behind it and hence increase the range due to the lower drag. The first full scale tests took place in 1969 with modified 10.5 cm steel shells with excellent results, and the Swedish patent was made in 1971.

Artillery Base Bleed Units |

In order to increase artillery shells range, up to 30%, when fired in a given gun system, base bleed technology is the best solution. The EDePro base bleed propellant technology and design of a base bleed units in whole represents a significant breakthrough in the production of base bleed systems for various projectiles, especially for 105mm (M1, ER"¦) and 155mm (M107, ER, ERFB"¦) artillery shells. Currently in use by the armies of several countries.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

I support partially, see i think we should upgrade our 105mm coz this is the main back bone of our Armies in mountain region and perhaps some places its the only thing can operate besides mortars, But if there are chances of deploying M777 even 52cal guns, We should not hesitate..

The Artillery support forms layers and over lapping layers of defenses, 105mm covering infantry and mortars, 39/45/52 calibers are covering 105mm and mortars so does providing fire-support when needed also act as a counter battery..

The Ideal place for 105mm operates is from Head of the Kashmir to legs of Arunchal Pradesh, And most of the places Only 105mm can operate..

=================

But again, As i told 105mm is the one available most and its superior to what enemy holds in the specific terrain, So we must upgrade it to the teeth as our soilder going to rely on it most, Giving it extra range and precision may what takes to win a battle and save Solider life to fight for another day.. :thumb:

And yes, 1000s 105mm also Hundreds of 39/45cal covering them..

Do you support the view @Kunal Biswas

 

[indian_sukhoi]

Modernization of our 105mm field guns is a must.

But, We should also look at price factor. Present mordern shells like GPS Shells cost way lot more resulting cost of war to escalate. As you guys know, During battle, Artillery will be used to rain a lot of shells on enemy location, Take Kargil War example, AFAIK we spended thousand crores for Artillery alone.

My point is, Upgraded with new ammunition and fire control system is a must, But with a cheaper solution. Has Kunal already pointed, India does not produce any precision ammo for Artillery as of now, So obiously we will forced to depend on foreign ammunition. Buying these shells in a huge quantity would definitely will cost us big.

The biggest setback with the present and future Artillery is the "Cost Escalation"


Anyways, This is a great topic and thanks for sharing info.

 

[SPIEZ]

Hi @Kunal

Are these 105mm guns being capable of carried by helos?

If so, are there any helo's that can carry this gun right now?

 

[Dinesh_Kumar]

****Cross posting from Thread "Eqpt. you would like to see in IA"******

(I Hope it is relevant here)

Sounds good to have only one type....logistics and firepower wise its unbeatable.

Maybe Lightweight 155mm for mountains is good idea.

Reason I ask for 105 mm is this:

> Its a hoary old piece of iron, been around for years, but designed and mfgd. here by us,( incl. shells i believe), so less hiccups and blockades possible.

Shells in present form not effective against hardened targets , but commander on the ground has some option to hit back with 'em. Anti personnel shell still quite effective. Its better than nothing
.Also,
> can be broken down and transported by donkey (mule)
> Havildar and Subedar Major saabs in Arty units can train their people quickly - no complex rocket science
> Airlift by all Helos / planes except Cheetah.
> Towed by Jeep vehicle upwards
> Can be physically manhandled into place by crew
> Its a good backup plan and last argument of IA
> Nato realises all of the above and still hold onto theirs.


So, until we have nos., we fight with this, brothers.

Our main heavy hitter, in terms of battery firepower, effectiveness and numbers, etc. is the venerable 130 mm M-46.This should go first (up gunning to 155mm), to simplify logistics (2 types of shell instead of 3, up gunned version not much heavier than base version, large commonality of parts, crew and training, bringing IA to Contemporary NATO Std, etc.)

@kushalappa,

It would be best if we settle on 155 mm alone, since we already make long-range rounds and we would have choices ranging from America to Russia. And every other country in between to buy howitzers.
Keshav Murali ↑

 

[Kunal Biswas]

105mm IFG are carried under-sling by MI-17, It can be also carried by Dhruv if needed..


Note from 3:20mins, Paratroopers also have Arty branch and others..

Hi @<a href="http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/member.php?u=8795" target="_blank">Kunal</a>

Are these 105mm guns being capable of carried by helos?

If so, are there any helo's that can carry this gun right now?

 

[W.G.Ewald]

^^

Off-topic for this thread, but it links to previous video.

 

[TrueSpirit]

The companies plan to complete the development by 2009. At the exhibition IMI unveiled the follow-on product, currently at an early development phase - a 105mm Guided Artillery Munition (GAM). This GPS guided projectile will complement IMI growing line of 105mm artillery ammunition. It will have a range of 23 km and an accuracy level of 10 meters.

>105mm Artillery Munition with GPS guidance
>Effective range: 23 Km
>Accuracy: 10m CEP
>Includes the Pure Heart (GPS/IMU and FCC) for guidance, navigation and flight control, a canard servo and control mechanism.

Don't know much but the spec's look decent enough, overall.

However, is the CEP of 10m comparable with other systems of its class in Western nations...? And, is it with GPS guidance ? Which projectiles..?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

If you read, these are kits and can be used on ordinary shells..

Kits are cheaper than whole round, The system is GPS/INS guided..

Don't know much but the spec's look decent enough, overall.

However, is the CEP of 10m comparable with other systems of its class in Western nations...? And, is it with GPS guidance ? Which projectiles..?

 

[TrueSpirit]

If you read, these are kits and can be used on ordinary shells..

Kits are cheaper than whole round, The system is GPS/INS guided..

Yes, that I understand; in principle, similar to USAF JSW's.

What I do not know is whether a CEP of 10m acceptable or, how does it compares with contemporary systems ?

 

[DivineHeretic]

Yes, that I understand; in principle, similar to USAF JSW's.

What I do not know is whether a CEP of 10m acceptable or, how does it compares with contemporary systems ?

This is an excerpt from US recommendations to Artillery/Indirect fire co-ordinators. It will hopefully ease some of your concerns about the add on GPS modules.

The term "danger close" is included in the call for fire when there are friendly troops or positions within a prescribed distance of the target, specifically 600 meters for artillery or mortars and 750 meters for naval gunfire.

This is simply a-warning and not a restriction-to both the maneuver commander-and the fire direction center to take proper precautions.

Minimum safe distance (MSD) is defined as the distance in meters from the intended center of impact at which a specific degree of risk and vulnerability will not be exceeded with a 99% assurance. MSDs allow for the maximum use of indirect fire while ensuring the safety of friendly troops.

MSD's and not "danger close" distances should be used when in close contact or as a planning figure when echeloning fires. Minimum safe distances are computed by adding the maximum pattern radius plus three circular error probable. The 1,2,3,4,5 "rule of thumb" is a good guide.

This translates to:

100 meters - M203 & 40mm

200 meters- 60mm mortars300 meters - 81mm

400 meters - 105 mm

500 meters - 155 mm/naval gunfire

As you can see, the MSD is stated at 400m for a unguided 105mm fire support. Thats nearly 4 Cricket fields across for those who want to compare the distance to something close at hand,

The distance is so far off its difficult to mark out a camoflanged machine gun position or a mortar position in a open field or a desert. In the mountains, where more than likely you will have limited visual freedom due to fog, its very very difficult to spot out an enemy post this far out.

I'll point out more in the next post.

 

[DivineHeretic]

Continuing from the above post,

Imagine a section of troops pushing forward for an assault. They turn a corner and find themselves face to face with a HMG/LMG post 30-40 metres ahead. Mind you here this is a full blown conflict and you will more than likely have limited intelligence about the hostile positions. Also note that the section itself may be playing the role of recon/spotter for a larger force

Everybody will appreciate the flashbacks from the Kargil war movies, where it was shown fairly accurately that troops moved only a short distance before turning into a blind corner. In addition, fog and snow played havoc with visibility.

Now if the group knows that the artillery unit backing them up has munitions with 10m CEP, they will not hesitate to call in a fire mission. Job done, target neutralised after a few volleys and no casualties due to friendly fire.

Imagine the same situation with unguided shells. The spotter may very well call in a fire mission, but it will require much larger volleys of rounds, rounds with a much higher CEP. Every extra shell that needs to be fired increases the chance that they themselves will be hit, as well as give the hostiles more chance to survive.

This is one of the reason why the IA did not use fire missions for direct infantry support when the targets were too close to the friendlies. Such a situation presents a very difficult position. Firing could mean the loss due to friendly fire, while not firing will definitely result in deaths due to the relentless LMG/HMG fire.

The availability of precision shells will enable commanders to call in accurate support as close as 50 m from their positions, meaning that they can receive fire support even if they are pinned down near to the post.

Indirect Fire

 

[Kunal Biswas]

@DivineHeretic, Nicely put as always ..

 

[pankaj nema]

Army's new mountain divisions to get light field guns instead of howitzers - Times Of India

As the wait for modern ultralight howitzers gets longer, the Army has apparently decided to arm its two new mountain divisions on the Indo-China border with the old generation 105 light field guns (LFGs).

The Gun Carriage Factory (GCF) at Jabalpur has bagged an order to supply over 150 units of 105-LFGs to the Army over a period of three years starting from May 2010. A source in the Ordnance Factory Board (OFB), who was part of the deal, said the order has been hiked on account of increased deployment on the eastern front.

He added that the 155mm ultra light howitzers, which the Army has been scouting for since 2007, would have been the ideal choice as LFGs have now become an obsolete weapon system. The 105 LFGs have a range of 18km while a howitzer covers over double the distance.

A senior official at GCF Jabalpur said that the order was received in 2010 and so far 100 pieces have been delivered. Another 50 are expected to be dispatched this year. The source confirmed that this was the biggest order in the recent past.

The LFG is derived from the 105 Indian field gun (IFG), developed over three decades ago. Experts say that given the changing scenario, howitzers would be a better option than a field gun. However, procurement of the guns has been mired in controversy.

India intends to buy around 140 howitzer guns. Singapore-based ST Kinetics was shortlisted, but has now been blacklisted after a bribery scandal. In fact, similar scandals have put plans to replenish the artillery inventory too on hold.

Former director general of artillery LT General (retd) Vinay Shanker says that this could be a stop gap arrangement. Although a 105 in a mountainous area cannot be the ideal weapon, but it is still better to have something rather than nothing. The procurement of weapon systems is a lengthy process, as the delivery still takes around five to six years after the order is placed. The 105 LFGs can be replaced by the howitzers when they arrive, he said.

According to Colonel US Rathore (retd), an independent defence analyst, howitzers are the ideal choice in a mountainous frontier. Field guns have a lesser lethality as the shells are not so effective, when the defences have time to be strengthened.

Also, howitzers provide a higher trajectory, which is required in a mountainous area. For achieving the same trajectory in a LFG, it has to be moved further from its original position which leads to a compromise in the range. "The Chinese are known for better defences and bunkers, and a 105 shell may not have the desired impact on certain armoured vehicles too," said Rathore.

http://articles.timesofindia.indiat...6362_1_howitzers-155mm-new-mountain-divisions

 

[Decklander]

The use of arty for direct firing on the target was first ever done by my forefathers while leading Jaats under Raja Surajmal of Bharatpur against the remnants of Abdali's army and Rohila Pathans to capture Delhi after third battle of Panipat. This battle was faught in south delhi and my forefathers established their canons on the highest hill of delhi which is now a Shiva temple and this hill is called suraj Parbat for this very reason. My forefathers worshipped lord shiva there and so this temple came up. This temple is just opposite the Kalkaji temple in Delhi. That is where they had put their guns and fired barrel down to blast away Afgans and Rohilla Pathans. After this battle we crowned Surajmal as the first ever Jaat king of India. The Pathans misjudged the brains of a brahmin when they calculated the trajectory of those guns and decided to put their cavalry well ahead thinking that from that height and range, the shells will fall well behind them. When the battle started , we just depressed the barrels to butcher them and under this umbrella of our cannon fire the Brahmins, Jaats and Gurjars, anihilated these Pathans.
The second time it was used in Kargil where the Bofors was used for such a role. now, Imagine what LFG can do in such a role in hills if used in direct fire role? LFG type of guns have flatter trajectory and their rounds have shorter flight time to the target which gives them an accuracy for direct fire role unsurpassed by a howitzer. The lessons learned from kargil regarding use of guns to support infantry assaults must be applied to all mountain Divisions and If I can have my way, I will go for far more improved LFG than medium guns.
We need to ensure that enemy keeps his head down till our forces can reach close enough to use the anti-tank missiles to burst the bunkers. I hope I am not letting out a secret here, And this job can be best done by an IFG battery using 105mm rounds in concentrated manner. They can infact continue direct fire support till our troops are within 200 yards of the target if the enemy is positioned higher. Why have I made this statement, Brig. Ray will enlighten you more.

 

[pankaj nema]

@ Decklander Sir

The Chinese use D -30 122mm Howitzers

They DO NOT use 105 mm anymore

So on the India China Border the Chinese have deployed 122mm and 155 mm guns with a
Greater range than our 105 mm

 

[WMD]

Along with range restriction destructive power of 105mm shells are limited.
But in regions where heavy arty equipments can't be transported these will play an important role and as we are producing modern FCS thanks to BEL, these should be upgraded.
India has bought nearly 1000 M-46 130mm artillery from SU(later Russia). @Kunal Biswas
Sir, how many of those 1000 pieces of artillery are still active?
IMO if we can upgrade even around 400 of them(purchased from Russia) to 155mm in-house with the help of OFB(Metamorphosis gun), it will increase army's capability manifold.
But IA needs to fast track its artillery procurement and modernization program big time. The in-house production of desi-bofors guns, the M777 procurement, the tracked SPH and mounted gun system tender, all needs to be done in short spn f time overcoming the bureaucratic obstacles and India's messy policies and tracked.
Bu

 

[Kunal Biswas]

As i said before, 105 lack punch but if it upgraded its accuracy will do the job..

130mm are upgraded slowly to 155mm of 45cal, When IA have sufficient of these older FH-77 will be transferred to Eastern sector, At the moment FH-77 are deployed over eastern front in limited numbers, Arrival of M777 will be addition to these units..

Along with range restriction destructive power of 105mm shells are limited.But in regions where heavy arty equipments can't be transported these will play an important role and as we are producing modern FCS thanks to BEL, these should be upgraded. India has bought nearly 1000 M-46 130mm artillery from SU(later Russia). @Kunal Biswas Sir, how many of those 1000 pieces of artillery are still active?

=========================

Understand geography first, India & China border is longer than Western border, Where they deploy152mm of 30 cal we deployed 155mm of 39cal FH-77, Where they have D-30 we have 105mm which has longer range and lighter so does compact then D-30, There are many places where they don't have equivalent of 105mm IFG and there IA has the advantage, Which is at most of the places due to high altitude..

Also don't make facts on your own, China never had 105mm guns operational nor they use 155mm guns, they have 152mm of 30 caliber and deployed in certain places coz big guns are harder to deploy on mountain tops, Same for us..

Do a little google before posting..

The Chinese use D -30 122mm Howitzers, They DO NOT use 105 mm anymore

So on the India China Border the Chinese have deployed 122mm and 155 mm guns with a
Greater range than our 105 mm

 

[Decklander]

@ Decklander Sir

The Chinese use D -30 122mm Howitzers

They DO NOT use 105 mm anymore

So on the India China Border the Chinese have deployed 122mm and 155 mm guns with a
Greater range than our 105 mm

Bro please read the difference between a howitzer and a field gun. You will than understand my POV.
The bigger the calibre, the longer the barrel, lesser is the ability to make coxns and lesser is the accuracy. When we talk of half mil coxns, you will realise that bigger guns become that much bigger burden.
You get longest range for a shell when you fire the gun at 45* elevation. above and below this figure, you get lesser range. Howitzers do not have this problem. Lastly, bigger the calibre, bigger is logistics and lesser is the area where they can be deployed. So, if you position them close to frontline units, you will get within the range of LFG and if you deploy a 122mm well behind, we can hit you with 155mm. That is what my forefathers did in 1763.