MMRCA Quagmire

Discussion in 'Defence & Strategic Issues' started by Quickgun Murugan, Dec 24, 2009.

  1. Quickgun Murugan

    Quickgun Murugan Regular Member

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    MMRCA: A Quagmire in the waiting for India?

    Its all or nothing game for the five countries bidding in the multi-billion dollar MMRCA game. As the world watches India's attempt to choose the best among best of these fighters, it becomes all the more important for these bidders to win this contract to get bragging rights and leverage for future exports.

    Though the winning fighter would solve India's long lasting demand for replacement of its aging old fleet, this thread is to discuss the possible repercussions of how the loosing countries may react.
    If

    1. Russia looses:


    Everyone knows, more than 80% of India's defence inventory is Russia's and disappointing it may have its consequences. The most immediate consequence would be the approval of export of AL-31 F engine for export of J-10 B fighters to Pakistan. We all know, the RD-93 export saga and I feel, if Russia looses, this export is a given as WS-10 A doesn't seem to have solved its inherent problems as of now.


    2. US looses:


    US can start raising the "Kashmir issue" and pressure India to resolve it putting a war on terror nexus upon disappointment in MMRCA tender. We all know how desperate they are to get the contract with Hilary Clinton visit and defence deal talks, blocking Israeli IAI from JAS Gripen etc. US consequence would affect more politically than militarily.

    3. Sweden looses:


    This is probably more apparent. SAAB already has close ties with Pakistan with 6 Erieye AWACS deal. Upon a MMRCA rejection, it can offer Gripen's AESA radars for Pakistan's JF-17 making it more potent.

    4. French looses:


    French would also have the same effect as Sweds. PAF is already having their hopes high on integrating Rafale's AESA and avionics on J-10B and JF-17. Disappointed French would definitely make that possible.

    5. European Union:


    Typically due to their pricey products, they do not pose any serious threats as of now, but Germany may be influenced into making its decision in favor of selling U-214 subs to Pakistan.


    So the bottom line is, what ever is the decision, we will end up pissing of 4 other countries at the cost of being dear to 1, giving Pakistan an opportunity to pick up the pieces of the fallen deals.

    Elders say, "Choice is an Illusion", for Indian MMRCA "Choice is a quagmire"


    Your views appreciated. Please feel free to add any other repercussions you feel might happen also express your contradictions.
     
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  3. A.V.

    A.V. New Member

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    here is my take to counter the above views

    RUSSIA LOST
    mig will take bit longer to recover, a singe mrca could make MIG the giant amongst the UAC which is now mainly dominated by SUKHOI corp. AL31 is not for export however much it wont be exported because russians are smarter than the world think they are they know china has the funds to indulge in mass production and development of many platforms which would compete directly with russian arms in the market, take the recent example of the burma deal where russian migs and j-10 were pitched against each other and considering that engines are the weak point for china russians wont budge.
    rd-93 was a different issue have you ever imagined why putin let the go ahead signal ? the entire pakistani fleet is now under the YES SIR/ mode of russian once they induct 150 odd jf-17 and russia decides to stop the supply where will their air-force stand?the deal is not between russia and pakistan directly as a result russia can act this way also because of this dependency china is not going to induct the jf-17 in high numbers the chinese are smart they dont want the russians to remote control them. PAF will have the same consequences like the US can do to its f-16 fleet
    also mig wont have anything to do with pakistan ,MIG corp is the only company in the world which has a NO DEAL WITH PAKISTAN clause in its agreement with india<except for mig 31>
    russia loses they have the mrta coming up with a huge indian order they have the pakfa they have indian deals on the tables that will take them till 2020 and beyond to supply them in full <imagine that>
    obviously there would be set backs but they will understand better because they know india would not like to have an all russian air-force.




    FRANCE LOST
    does it matter to them yes and no why? they simply dont care or else they would not have screwed the mirage upgrade deal or do they already know where the mrca is going i dont know.but france is the ony country who does not care about anything do you have any gurantee that in the next 15 years after the mrca <presuming they won it> they wont be supplying pakistan? russia is wiling to provide the gurantee will france gurantee that never they mean simple business today you are my friend next day your enemy might be our frinend nothing wrong but there is nothing that they can do to piss india off, about french components in PAF think about it a country which demands prices equivalent to a new aircraft for simple upgradation how much would they charge for new technology and parts? can pakistan pay it not in the next 20 years going by the economic forecast
    the truth is MRCA can save rafale and the french aviation industry RAFALE needs the deal more than MIG who is selling small number to many countries recently.
    FRANCE HOLD NO KEY ITS INDIA WHO WILL CALL THE SHOTS




    SWEDEN LOST
    dosent matter to india sweden is a country who thinks very little about what india or pakistan does and i am speaking about the general country attitude obviously the huge bilions interest them but more than that they have no interest , saab has been on a selling spree its auto wing was recently sold off without the MRCA their proposal of a gripen NG is only in dreams,again the same question arises what gurantee is there they wont sell gripen to pakistan at a later date? saab is the only company who is actively involved in R&D projects with pakistan obviously this wont please the indians remember ukraine in the 90,s how they pissed off india and are still repenting for that
    saab will do they same how many can pakistan afford 20-30 50 or even 100 imagine being shut out of the billion dollar indian market.even if sweden losses they will rise up to greater realization that there is a world outside theirs.



    EUROPE LOST
    europe can better sustain the loss than rafale/gripen because they will have the means to bounce back in the future and continue their program but even if europe wins what extra would they provide india with? a deal worth billions of dollars would europe provide anything substantial for india in the world stage? would they support india on various world forums? would they put india in their list of preferred nations? the answer is NO they dont care time and again i have maintained that the MRCA IS not JUST another military deal its the way of power projection in terms of economic might for india and india would extract more that just those 126 aircrafts. now think this pakistan is looking for engines for its FC-20 and future jf-17 because of the russian dominance in their jf-17 program EF is offering a lower trust engine with complete TOT just goes on to show after the mrca nations will forget who india is they will be busy making cheap bucks. germany well if they want they can sell to pak whatever they want MRCA is not stopping them but the prospects in india are because india is also looking for a 6 submarine tender <think about it>.



    AMERICA LOST
    now they are the real businessmen they would not mind the loss and shrug it off without emotions but they will fume inside so what what would they do support pakistan or china on the world stage , they are not dumb people they wouldnt like to dig their grave world over know china is particularly not friendly towards america and both are engaged in undercutting each other, US rejects supply of weapons to pakistan quickly china jumps in why ?and supporting pakistan for the US is nothing new what were they doing all these years except for few bushy years in between , does the US not know how much pakistan has been back stabbing them offcource they know but they are in a fix now they cannot afford escalation of tensions with pak especially with the economy at this state?
    if america wins the MRCA would they make a move to go into special agreements with india like all the other contenders , will they provide complete TOT ? what about inspections? what will they do nothing they know they cannot piss india off because they will loose their footing in southasia a very important strategic region, with all the aid and help pakistan would not think twice to kick their arses, one wrong move on the kashmir issue by them and there you go india walks out of the iran sanctions exactly what china and russia is waiting for for they would pin the US on worlds forum and the US with this state f economy and 2 ongoing wars and with friends/ally like pakistan wont find a place to hide and what happens to the war on OIL sorry terror ?
    i think if america losses you will find lockheed offering a f-35 in the future anyway and even sooner than expected boeing trying to get into jvs and undercut the russians



    so the conclusion is INDIA IS KING in the MRCA either you play by its rules or get out of the indian market how many defence corps can stay out of the indian markets and survive especially with 100 billion of money in circulation in he next 10 years i guess not many everybody wants a share of the cake, it dosent matter if you are pissed with INDIA what matters is if india is PISSED WITH YOU OR NOT if yes they plan for a bankruptcy order sooner than you hoped
     
  4. Soham

    Soham DFI TEAM Senior Member

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    Interesting PoVs. However, I have a different take on some nations.


    We have enough contracts with Russia in the future. Judging by the Chinese optimism in various news articles, I think those engines will be exported anyway. And if they don't export, it would hardly be due to India's influence. They have their own prized engine to be kept from cloning.

    I really don't think so. Kashmir has nothing to do with the MMRCA. The American need for Indian co-operation is essential to preserve their influence in South Asia.
    Yes, they are bloody desperate, but they won't prop up the K-word.
    Not to deny that they won't be mighty upset, but they can't do much to harm India. They can't offer the same to our western neighbour, because they don't have money to buy it, and they are not stupid to give free Super Hornets.

    They would offer it anyway. SAAB is desperate for business at the moment.

    With the rapidly growing ties between India and France, I doubt the French will give their prized radar to Pakistanis.
    India and France are getting hyper close with every passing day in almost every field.

    The European community is quite apprehensive with Pakistan's export of terror.
    I would not expect this deal unless the War on Terror ends successfully with Pakistani co-operation.
     
  5. thakur_ritesh

    thakur_ritesh Administrator Administrator

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    Why are we just limiting our imaginations to a mere 12b usd, is that all the Indian armed forces are going to buy hardware worth for in the next few years. It is a pretty longish buying, supplying, JV, r&d, industrialization strategy India is getting into and one of the figures of 100b usd for purchase of hardware is to be done in a pretty quick succession, imagine the massive opportunities await these corps in next decade or two, which goes beyond the mentioned 100b usd.

    MIG is eliminated, Russian reaction:

    India today has individual JVs and purchase orders well over 200, running into multi billion usd. Russia’s hands are full, in question is MIG, and that is an issue, but they will be kept busy in times to come, and India-mig relationship certainly does not cease with this mmrca order, future has a lot in store!

    Boeing/LM are eliminated, the US reaction:

    I am sure the Americans are not as naïve as is made out to be, and diplomacy is not about just one off defence deal. Where indo-us relations stand today has been because of efforts that have gone in since close to a decade for now, they will anyways be compensated with nuke plants and this deal remains independent of the nuke deal that we signed.

    Politically consequences would be negligible with may be a few red faces, hurt egos. at stake is south asia, relations with a rising regional/global power, the challenge posed by a communist china, also as avi said, they are the shrewdest business community, they will move on and get themselves involved in future defence deals, and I might add, Americans will be kept busy with a deal here and there, as is being done today.

    SAAB is eliminated, Swede reaction:

    Does it really matter what they would end up doing. They have had their hands full with the Pakistanis for many years now, india’s clout is limited, and they do not offer us much on table. They will anyways be one of the first to be eliminated.

    Dassault is eliminated, French reaction:

    French want it desperate and lets assume they get it, is there any guarantee they will not offer an upgraded version to the Pakistanis. They very well will, have we forgotten the marlin saga!

    Which ever way this deal goes, French will work out more mirage 2Ks for the pak air force.

    For French its all about their money, and nothing to do with the so called strategic relations.

    Eurofighter is eliminated, EU reaction:

    That sub deal is independent of mmrca, and as avi put it, germans seem interested in the second line of subs that we will be procuring in the next few years. Politically there is not much that we are to gain from the eu, what matters to us is a fta pact with them, and they themselves are desperate for that, as that would open them to a 1.2billion people market.

    Don’t just count the eurofighter out, price might be an issue, but a good 50% will make its way back to Indian shores, and if we are to give a huge fillip to our aero space industry, we might as well want them to be in here, with no political costs attached.

    PS: don’t fall for media generated phrases like, “mother of all defence deals”, in that case we are yet to see a lot of grand momma’s coming our way!
     
  6. Armand2REP

    Armand2REP CHINI EXPERT Veteran Member

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    Russia will already approve sale to Pakistan, they did it with JF-17 so no reason not to with J-10 either. If Russia loses, it will be the end of anything new from MiG with a death sentence in 10 years. It may be part of UAC but they will cut most of it out. I really doubt Russia intends to buy MiG-35 without Indian orders. There really isn't much Russia can threaten since they are already dependent on India for so much, they just have to swallow the fact they can't compete with the West.




    I doubt they will go that way. They will just sell more weapons to PAF and offering them higher technology items. They would block Gripen as they should. Why should they aid their competitor? Political consequence will be minor, USA is already getting some sweet deals and may just get others in its place. The one long standing partner country that hasn't won this year is France.

    What can they do? They are not politically, economically, or military big enough to do anything. They are dependent on foreign suppliers anyway so they are always at others whim.




    France is quite a bit more important than that. The Swedes have to outsource many components while we can make our fighters from scratch. Rafale is expected to fly in Brazil and UAE so losing MMRCA isn't the death knell of exports like it was thought. France has an important nuclear deal with India so we wouldn't be looking for political payback if we lost. As the Russians are proving to be unreliable suppliers,

    Indo-Russian N-plant faces supply hurdle

    France will just pickup more orders. India needs to secure one other major defence deal with France to keep a balance in the diversification efforts. If it isn't MMRCA, then it should be Eurocopter for LOH.


    Germany will sell U-214 to whomever will buy regardless.

    I think you take the political implications a bit too seriously. There can only be one winner and doesn't do the losing bidder countries any good to sabotage any future deals with India. The deal is big enough that India is looking for a power player, ie US, France, and Russia. India has already signed enough deals to appease the Russians. US needs one more big deal to make them happy. France needs one more deal as well. That is another reason why US and France are the two real contenders here. India is diversifying and already has enough Russian deals. With France sitting on the P5 as well, they can't be overlooked. France will win something and the US will win something, question is, who gets the motherload in MMRCA? Probably America but who knows.
     
  7. Quickgun Murugan

    Quickgun Murugan Regular Member

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    Ok. First of all, I am really happy that you, soham and ritesh are convinced that MMRCA is pure business deal and will have limited or no consequence geo-politically. I would like to discuss each of your answers one at a time.


    See here is my point. Russia did not budge on China for Burma Mig deal, as Mig has no deal which says "it wont sell its fighters to burma" like it has for Pakistan. Ok, now when it comes to Pakistan, Russia knows, it cant directly sell its fighters there, so why not approve the engines for J-10 to make some money? RD-93 engine worked on similar logic.

    Russians are businessmen after all. Why, your argument of Putin's "YES SIR" diplomatic leverage over Pakistan will only increase by AL-31F engine approval. The worst part was, until PAK-FA deal was signed early 2007 both the government and then Russian Air chief maintained it will never approve RD-93 engine sale and as soon was the deal was done, Putin over-ruled all this decision and approved the sales and this was at a time when MMRCA RFP's also weren't out. Right now, Russia will not do anything to irk India as its waiting for MMRCA decision, but as soon as the decision is out, I will definitely not be surprised if AL-31F is approved.

    There is no doubt there is MRTA and Pak-Fa on the table. Indo-Russian relationship is indeed deep, but MMRCA will have its own repercussions.

    Nope you are wrong. China already operates Al-31F engines for its J-10 and J-11's. So if they were really able to clone it, they would have done it long time back. Allowing AL-31 F export wont compromise its technology.

    Russia will never even think about approving AL-31F until MMRCA decision is made, as this would literally eliminate them from the competition as this would definitely irk India.

    I am not saying Indian-Mig relationship would be in jeopardy, but trying to analyze what Russia will do to express its disappointment. What is your take on Al-31 F export?
     
  8. pankaj nema

    pankaj nema Senior Member Senior Member

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    i hate to spoil the party but we just can't trust the americans . So F 16 and F 18 are out.
    the Mig 35 may not be the best but it is definitely much more reasonably priced than the
    Rafale.

    If we cant afford the Rafale or the euro fighter can the pakistanis do so.

    china faces an arms embargo from the west but not from russia
    so the mig 35 will land up in chinese hands
    Russian technology is steadily improving both BVR capabilty and AESA .

    we still need a lot of help in many areas

    we can negotiate for more tech transfer in PAKFA , and /or one more akula
    a new T 95 is coming ,then there is work to be done in ARIHANT, S 400 /500
    for our BMD

    If this deal is good both in terms of TOT AND COST per plane( since we may need 60 more than the 126) then just go for MIG 35
     
  9. A.V.

    A.V. New Member

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    RD93 was a way in which putin tried to remind who he was in 2007 if you remember the events that took place prior to that order you will get the answer, the request was there for a long time and it was kept pending putin wanted india by the side and during 2007 when the economic recession was not yet in russia was hoping it can regain some of its clout in the central asia for that putin went all out since 2004 introduced and supported india on world forum
    round about 2007 you will hear about indian airbase in AYANI statement was made in parliament aswell and there was a huge cry across the border,but russia made a master plan to connecting its mainland via tajik,afgan through to iran , russia was supporting iran all through and ony recently did they vote against them.
    it expected india to hold firm by its side in a typical move india due to the nuclear deal pressure went for US say and backed out and voted against IRAN this irked the russians especially putin .the mistake that india did was did not confer indians stand to russia in advance after that india was asked to withdraw from ayani,gorshkov saga started ,rd93 approved , indian dipomats went overboard to convince the russians they understood that the US help was needed to get the nuclear club approval the only mistake was india and russia did not correspond each others stand to one another.
    another very valid point was that there were signs of the economy slowing down the plant manufacturing the mig engines was in a bad shape , mig was in red following algeria,s cancellation and there was no way the plant could have continued within 3 months the plant was to be shutoff or sold and as putin is a man of resolve he went all out to save the industry the chinese order for RD93 saved the manufacturing unit from closure so all things matched up and culminated on the rd93 sale it was not a one off decision


    regarding the sale of new engines to china its not possible because as per the document signed dec 2008 china promised not to clone russian products but licence produce with permission , right after that chinese ended the su33 deal . any new deal has to be with a new agreement where china buys en-mass product with licence to manufacture but what is the harm in that even western countries wont miss an oppurtunity to sale for 100 of orders but russia is not going to sell the AL33FP or 117S because no country sells the best they have once saturn comes out with a new engine then they might think about it but by then india will have PAKFA flying with higher advanced tech and engine with full TOT, so whatever russia does with china it will be one step behind what india would have unlike any other MRCA contender. just imagine people make a large hue and cry about RD93 sale does RD 93 powered JF-17 match up to SU30MKI in any aspect? if russia did not supply one one else would have anyway . what about the advanced tech engine that russia supplied india for its trainer program even its better than RD93

    just answer this question for me why is PAKISTAN LOOKING FOR NEW ENGINES FOR FUTURE JF-17?
     
  10. Armand2REP

    Armand2REP CHINI EXPERT Veteran Member

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    MiG-35 final cost is not even in the stadium. RAC-MiG has no production line and no serial production version ready to even begin to give a real cost. Everything on the internet is just speculation Once you tack on all the European systems going on it and calculate the defence inflation in Russia, you are looking at a final pricetag around the Rafale.

    Pakistanis are broke, they can't afford to feed war refugees. Every fighter they get comes with US or Chinese welfare cheques.

    Russia has an unwritten embargo of not exporting development tech to China. The ability of Russia to field new weapon systems since the fall of the USSR remains to be seen.

    Plenty of countries to assist.

    India only bankrolls PAK FA and software, Russia will be hesitant to give over critical technologies like they are for Brahmos. India doesn't like obsolete Russian SAM tech. They are going with Israel for those technologies. T-95 is still on the drawing board but the T-90S with French thermals are more than a match for anything China or Pak has. Arihant has yet to get a working reactor and Russian cooperation isn't getting the job done, maybe France should assist since we are good at compact nuclear propulsion.

    MiG-35 won't be serially produced until at least 2014, probably later knowing their track record. India can't wait for an untried plane. The price of it will be significantly higher than believed being around the cost of an upper tier Gripen when it comes out. ToT is always an overated topic of discussion. Wether it be, Russia, USA, France, they aren't going to give you the critical core technologies that make it work. I am amased people keep believing that the deal is going to skyrocket DRDO into the next age of aerospace technology.
     
  11. bengalraider

    bengalraider DFI Technocrat Stars and Ambassadors

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    The MMRCA is but the tip of the iceburg, as India mordenizes her forces we will need many more aircraft (going up from current 33-35 squadrons to 50+) not only that but india shall need to mordenize the whole she-bang from the soldiers to the ships. In such a rain of moolah it simply does not matter whom gets wet first and who gets wet later, however as i have already stated numerous times before "any major weapons deal is more of a political decision than a technical one". Also as the no. of MMRCA looks set to increase from 126 to 200 (approx) we could see not one but two winners even.(this would be better with both suppliers supplying airframes and increasing our inventory faster).
    The way i see it is the entire process shall be balanced as we are going with a what if scenario lets see what if they lose for each nation.

    The europeans lose the MMRCA but get the IAF refueller deal.
    The swedes Lose the MMRCA but the IA buys archers.
    The americans lose the MMRCA but the IA buys M777.
    The russians lose MMRCA but IAF buys a shitload of PAKFA instead.
    The french lose but IN buys more scorpenes and maybe AMX-23(concept submarine from thales).
     
  12. nitesh

    nitesh Mob Control Manager Stars and Ambassadors

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    Here is my views:
    PS: I am not taking AESA in to consideration because only US has mature AESA

    Russia: MiG will not be in total loss in case if they loose this deal they have IN as there customers with MiG29K and IAF MiG29 upgrade, alternatively they can tie up with India for light 5th generation fighter as India can offered to run two programs. Also there are lot more deals for Russia to be busy with :)

    France: The Rafale will be the biggest looser if it looses this competition they can sale many more if they win a tough customer IAF. In case if they loose they have to depend on French AF for upgrade orders and then there is nothing big on the radar except this order as EU arms embargo on Chinese they really don't have any big customer. But with the way French are playing hard ball with Scorpene and M2k upgrade (at least on paper but I feel some thing else is cooking there) deal it seems they are not interested to stay for long term (at least on paper). France really need to sweeten the deal in innovative ways :). Or it seems they are contend with selling some nuclear reactors only

    Gripen : Well they don't have anything great technological prowess to share and nothing great geo political advantage to offer. The weakest candidate and dark horse too :)

    Typhoon: The main reason for it to loose out will be the cost but as they are roped in for consultation for LCA and in race for new engines there prospects look great also there offer for roping India for there new projects in case of win can tilt the balance in there favor. The only thing to worry about is A2G capability and willing to share tech like Meteror with India.

    US (F 16 and F 18): Now really speaking they have the best tech to offer but how much they are willing to offer is a question so there winning or loosing will depend on how much they want to share and how much guarantee on future un interrupted supply. I think they will not win this deal as India is already talking too many deals with them like the C 130J, C 17, P8I and many more.
     
  13. Quickgun Murugan

    Quickgun Murugan Regular Member

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    Ok AV, the essence of the above paragraph if I understood right is "Putin wanted to teach a lesson to India for its Iran and Ayani debacle and hence approved RD-93 engine".

    This is exactly what I am fearing and is the entire point of my argument. Now, will you be surprised if Putin does the same "teach a lesson to India after MMRCA failure?"


    In this paragraph you actually changed your stance from "Russia will not sell AL-31F to Pakistan" to "It doesn't matter if Russia sells it to Pakistan." So you are in tandem with the possibility that there will be repercussions upon Russian MMRCA failure.

    See AV, the point is not whether India has a counter technology or not, it is that Russia did sell RD-93. If we have Pak Fa flying with 117S you are saying it will be ok for Pakistan to have Al-31F which I dont agree. By then we would be operating 200+ Sukhoi's with AL-31 engine. Why give them an ability to match it in the first place?

    OK, any Air Force would be looking for betterment of its fighter. There is nothing wrong with Pakistan to aim for a better engine from a reliable supplier. But, the fact that china has ordered 1000 RD-93 engines means, that there is no better engine replacement for JF-17 in the near future.


    I will pose you a counter question. If PAKISTAN LOOKING FOR NEW ENGINES FOR FUTURE JF-17, then what validity does your Putin's "Yes sir" diplomatic leverage hold on Pakistan when you seem to agree that they are looking for a different engine and in few years time they would not be operating Russian ones?
     
  14. thakur_ritesh

    thakur_ritesh Administrator Administrator

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    That’s a tough cookie to crack, and so I left it unanswered initially. Russia yesterday (under putin), today (though not so successfully), and tomorrow (again under putin) was/is/will fighting/fight a war of dominance, and the same has been highlighted well by avi.

    There sure was arm twisting from their side and there is no hiding from that fact, and I am sure if India is not careful in the future just like in the past, those engines would very well head pakistan’s way, and this is where very meticulous planning needs to take shape.

    mmrca goes to some other country, which it should ideally, the additional orders for su30mki need to be planned in such a way that their announcement comes very close to the heels of the announcement of mmrca winner, and back door diplomatic channels then need to be on a hyper active mode to make the Russians understand our concerns and also address their concerns.

    I raised the issue of MIG, and as we look at it, there clearly is an issue up there and for this india’s 5th generation aircraft, also known as mca would most probably end up being a jv between mig-india, so they get compensated there.

    Let us take the worst case scenario, and assume Russia delivers those engines to the Pakistanis, are they the only one who would do that.

    America – they have for long fed both the opposing sides and just to make sure Pakistan does not fall completely in the prc’s kitty, they will feed them to whatever extent it suits them and if this means arming them to the teeth, they very well will as they have done in the past. As they say, past shows you a way to the future!

    France – irrespective of what happens, they are working out mirage 2000s for pak, from existing clients who are planning to replace those with rafale.

    Sweden – the least said the better ………

    Eurofighter consortium – Pakistan cant afford it, but assuming they get funding from the prc and the ksa, they will certainly lay their hands of this fighter jet, as such initially they were offered a joint development of this jet along with turkey.

    Looking at the above, Russia still takes it hands down. That said, India will have a many more JVs in future to take care of any Russian concerns, so I would like to assume things wont be as rocky as they were in the past, where we also mismanaged a lot of things at our end. And this in no way is the end of the road, imagine 100b usd in 5 years and a big chunk of that will head russia’s way.
     
  15. nitesh

    nitesh Mob Control Manager Stars and Ambassadors

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    Guys why are we forgetting the nuclear deal in discussing this in case any country looses this deal they can get compensated in nuclear arena that is quite lucrative too also there is hell lot of arms India is looking to buy so some compensation can be given there too
     
  16. thakur_ritesh

    thakur_ritesh Administrator Administrator

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    Quickgun Murugan,

    India does not believe in confrontationist foreign policy, we don’t even believe in confrontation with the prc and also it is in india’s benefit that we maintain the best of the relations with the lone super power - the us, a dominant synergy of nations - the eu and with our long time tested friend - Russia.

    There is something to be gained from all, and if we as a nation are to move at a larger world stage, we need to cooperate with all of these, and it certainly does not harm us to have them and be in their good books. India needs access to technology, market, international support on various international platforms, to emerge and be on a very strong footing.

    The world is extremely suspicious of the prc, is there any such fear about India?

    As said up there, there will be red faces, hurt egos, and at worse some little arm twisting which I believe will be very short sighted but then things will move back to normal very quickly. Economic gains to be had from India are tremendous and money speaks a language like none other.

    Similarly, it is in our interest we keep our defence procurements well distributed (if that is phrased as “So every country involved has to be stuffed with money some way or the other to be kept happy?” then so be it), which is a very important part of foreign policy, which further gives us a leverage in molding others policies in our interest and to our benefit.

    All this certainly goes beyond just a mmrca deal!

    We also have not reached a stage where we can dictate the term, “either with us or against us”, so if tomorrow some goodies are thrown at Pakistan and we can still gain benefits by having good relations with that other country then we will have to move on and still make use of that other country. All a part and parcel of day today diplomacy and business!
     
  17. LETHALFORCE

    LETHALFORCE Moderator Moderator

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    Russia recently got the biggest slice as far as nuclear deals go, the best terms and agreements were sealed by both countries and India gave Russia the ok to build 4 more nuclear reactors than previously agreed. If one reactor costs 10 billion to build that's 40 billion in deals just to build or equal to 3-4 MRCA victories, there is nothing for Russia to be upset about if they don't win the bid they are still getting a much bigger piece of the pie elsewhere.
     

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