MMRCA News and Discussions - Part II

blade

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Sir, as far as i know boeing has already send a comprehensive detail of the needed platform in indian part which will be required to absorb the SH tech and YES such dicussions are indeed going on and with all the contenders as india has specifically mentioned only to offer an amount of technology wich can be deep transfered.IAF ..during the flight testing has made itself clear and US seems to hav accepted to go for further relaxation of their regulations. The piller for all these was set during hillary clinton's visit to India.Its true that no decision has been taken formally as it cannot be taken but this MRCA competition was never a real competition.It was more of an exposure to different kind of most advanced technologies available to mankind. We have both apples and oranges in MRCA contest and we find people being very ctitical about it but the matter of fact is this MRCA is not just about buying an aircraft its also about knowing and incorporating the latest tech from the world for a complehensive modernization of IAF in long run. MRCA provides us this a great opportunity to compare and know many secrets of some of the best fighters from the worlds and this part is often ignored.Though we will not see grippin being sepected in MRCA but will certainly find many of the avionics will be incorporated in comming future.As you can see even Eurofighter has started to delink it self from the MRCA and started to build seperate relation with INDIA for future cooperation.Such developements should not be ignored.
 

AJSINGH

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look america is reluctant to give full TOT , they did not give it to israel either ( israel was developing lavi ,that project was in paraled developmnet with the F-16 ,when america relaised that lavi is better than F-16 ,they stoped the funding ) so trusting america is not good ,what if 4 years from now we do another neuclear test , america will stop its support and spare parts supply ,therefore we are in trouble .whereas Mig 35 comes without any strings attached . plus no need to worry that we are depending on one country for weapons ,we have done that before ,and has worked out pretty fine
 

frankenstein

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I think we should go for eurofighter. Because if you take pakistan, any one of those 6 mmrca can easily scare them. But to face china we need really best fighter plane like eurofighter or f-18. since we can't trust USA ,it would better to go with eurofighter. Also we have enough russian tech.So its time we go for some new western tech.If we go for eurofighter we will also be getting its tech by TOT .so technology acquired form su-30MKI , FGFA and Eurofighter will help us in MCA project,:twizt::twizt:
 

s_bman

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I think we should go for eurofighter. Because if you take pakistan, any one of those 6 mmrca can easily scare them. But to face china we need really best fighter plane like eurofighter or f-18. since we can't trust USA ,it would better to go with eurofighter. Also we have enough russian tech.So its time we go for some new western tech.If we go for eurofighter we will also be getting its tech by TOT .so technology acquired form su-30MKI , FGFA and Eurofighter will help us in MCA project,:twizt::twizt:
americans we cannot trust
french have been playing balls with us recently
russians end up extorting big money for not so impressive weapons(read vikramaditya)
europeans have given us problems (hawk trainer )

so now question is which way to look at??
 

dineshchaturvedi

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Country flag
americans we cannot trust
french have been playing balls with us recently
russians end up extorting big money for not so impressive weapons(read vikramaditya)
europeans have given us problems (hawk trainer )

so now question is which way to look at??
First thing get the expectation right, we have to compromise on some aspects in this deal and lets take one step at a time. It might be worthwhile to explore the US route in can we can mitigate the risk of spare parts. We can also order large number of spare parts along with the fighter plane. This is exactly what Pakistani's are doing with the new F-16 deal.
 

Vladimir79

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americans we cannot trust
french have been playing balls with us recently
russians end up extorting big money for not so impressive weapons(read vikramaditya)
europeans have given us problems (hawk trainer )

so now question is which way to look at??
Extorting money means we try to make a profit far beyond normal. There is no profit for us working on Gorshkov... after the final price is signed, it will be at a loss.
 

ptldM3

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I think we should go for eurofighter. Because if you take pakistan, any one of those 6 mmrca can easily scare them. But to face china we need really best fighter plane like eurofighter or f-18. since we can't trust USA ,it would better to go with eurofighter. Also we have enough russian tech.So its time we go for some new western tech.If we go for eurofighter we will also be getting its tech by TOT .so technology acquired form su-30MKI , FGFA and Eurofighter will help us in MCA project,:twizt::twizt:
I like the Eurofighter too, but besides supercruise what does it have to justify its 120+ million dollar price tag? I think the deal should go to either the F-18 or the Mig-35 :help:
 

AJSINGH

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eurofighter is too expensive ,it will definetly loose out in the price negotiation
 

Quickgun Murugan

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I like the Eurofighter too, but besides supercruise what does it have to justify its 120+ million dollar price tag? I think the the deal should go to either the F-18 or the Mig-35 :help:
eurofighter is too expensive ,it will definetly loose out in the price negotiation

I don't even know what EF offers to justify that price tag. It does'nt even have a proven AESA radar with it!!

You can approximately buy 2 rafale's, F-16's or f-18, or 3 JAS grippen or 4 Mig 35's for cost of 1 euro fighter.
 

Quickgun Murugan

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ASIAN DEFENCE: India could ditch Mirage 2000 upgrade and buy more MRCAs instead

Ajai Shukla

The winner’s jackpot could soon become even bigger in what is already the world’s most lucrative fighter aircraft tender: India’s proposed purchase of 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) for an estimated Rs 51,000 crore ($11 billion).

The reason is a breakdown in India’s long negotiations with Dassault Aviation, the French aircraft manufacturer, for upgrading 51 Indian Air Force Mirage-2000 fighters. According to senior IAF sources, Dassault has refused to reduce its quota of Rs 10,000 crore ($2.1 billion) for extending the service life of the IAF’s Mirage-2000 fleet by fitting new radars and avionics. The Ministry of Defence (MoD) considers this price — Rs 196 crore ($41 million) per aircraft — unacceptably high, given that the airframes and engines will not be changed.

In comparison, each of the 126 brand-new, next-generation MMRCAs will cost some Rs 400 crore ($87 million) per aircraft. That includes the cost of technology transfers, as well as capital costs for setting up a manufacturing line in India. Once those costs are amortised, additional MMRCAs would be significantly cheaper.

Dassault’s India head, Posina V Rao, did not return multiple phone calls from Business Standard. MoD sources say Rao is engaged in last-ditch attempts to salvage the deal.

But, the MoD is veering around to the view that the Mirage-2000 fleet should continue service in its current form. After six squadrons (126 aircraft) of MMRCAs have entered IAF service, an additional two squadrons of MMRCAs would be built to replace the 51 Mirage-2000 fighters. That amounts to a 40 per cent rise in the MMRCA’s numbers.

Israeli aerospace companies have reportedly entered the fray, offering to upgrade the Mirage-2000 for half the price being quoted by Dassault. The MoD, however, is not inclined to accept that offer.

Price negotiations for the Mirage-2000 upgrade have travelled a rocky road over two years. Initially, Dassault quoted Rs 13,500 crore ($2.9 billion), which it brought down to the current level of Rs 10,000 crore ($2.1 billion) after the IAF diluted its upgrade requirements. But the MoD believes Dassault’s reduced bid only reflects the diluted requirements, rather than any flexibility on the latter’s part.

The IAF, traditionally a staunch supporter of Dassault and the Mirage-2000 fighter, is apparently changing its views. Dassault, say pilots, has badly damaged its credibility during the recent negotiations by arm-twisting the IAF over the supply of spares for the Mirage-2000 fleet.

The Gwalior-based IAF squadrons that currently fly the Mirage-2000 are Number 1 squadron (Tigers) and Number 7 squadron (Battle Axes).

Five of the six contenders for the MMRCA contract — Boeing, Lockheed Martin, Eurofighter, Gripen and RAC MiG — know they could reap handsome gains, through larger fighter orders, if India chooses not to upgrade the Mirage-2000. The sixth contender, Dassault Aviation itself, realises failure to negotiate the Mirage-2000 upgrade contract could seriously damage the chances of its Rafale fighter for the MMRCA contract.

The fighters in contention for the MMRCA contract are sequentially undergoing flight trials and evaluation, which the IAF expects to complete by April 2010. It will take another six months to finalise the trial report and send that to the MoD, which will then announce the winner of the contract.

If the article is true, the latest date we can expect a result for MMRCA is October 2010, i.e. an year from now. :thumbs_thmbdn:
 

blade

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Let me tell you the concept of TOT is often misleading.When we talk about fighter jets its involves a lot of technology starting from material science to semiconductor physics from aerodynamics to supercomputing technology. its a huge project involving almost 70% of the human knowledge bank directly or indirectly.Now when you say ToT it only means the transfer of direct techs which doesn't necessarily mean that every related supporting tech will also be transfer along with it.Now talking about Israeli tech i can only say that whatever cutting edge they have at this present time is largely due to US cooperation.It will be wrong on Indian part to believe that US will not do the same in the case of India.Once SH is selected it will certainly indicate the beginning of new era in indo us strategic ties.
 

Vladimir79

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Now talking about Israeli tech i can only say that whatever cutting edge they have at this present time is largely due to US cooperation.It will be wrong on Indian part to believe that US will not do the same in the case of India.Once SH is selected it will certainly indicate the beginning of new era in indo us strategic ties.
Now thats rich. you want US to rule your foreign policy too? :crazy:

The Usraeli relationship is not, nor would you want it to be comparable for India. The US will never give you ToT like they do to Israel. there is no Indian lobby in DC with as much power as the Jewish one. The level of Indo-American relations is on par with US-Brazilian relations. there is not hate, but no love either. You are just another pawn in their attempt to conquer Asia influence but yet you are still at odds with their biggest partner, China. They won't give you anything that doesn't amount to massive reliance on them. A self sufficient Indian defence complex is the last thing they want.
 

frankenstein

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eurofighter might be expensive for that price of $120M, but when it comes to over all life time Aircraft maintenance cost of all 6 MMRCA will be more or less the same.

f-16,f18 and mig-35 are old plane with new technology. Especially f-16 and mig-35 offered to india might be the last of their kind.But eurofighter is a new plane with new technology , so there will be still plenty of room for technology that are to come in the future:sporty45:
 

Quickgun Murugan

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Now thats rich... you want US to rule your foreign policy too? :crazy:

The Usraeli relationship is not, nor would you want it to be comperable for India. The US will never give you ToT like they do to Israel... there is no Indian lobby in DC with as much power as the Jewish one. The level of Indo-Amerikan relations is on par with US-Brazilian relations... there is not hate, but no love either. You are just another pawn in their attempt to conquer Asia influence but yet you are still at odds with their biggest partner, China. They won't give you anything that doesn't amount to massive reliance on them. A self suffficient Indian defence complex is the last thing they want.
Air Force Technology - US Offers F18 Technology to Win Brazil Fighter Deal


The US has rolled out an unprecedented proposal to transfer F/A-18 fighter jet technology to Brazil in a bid to win an aircraft contract estimated at $4bn.


The US is hoping that the transfer of technology will persuade Brazil to replace its fleet of 12 Mirage-2000 jets with the American F/A-18s. Brazil has announced plans to replace its aging fighters with 36 new combat aircraft.

US State Department under-secretary for arms control Ellen Tauscher said that this would be a big departure from what the US typically does

"We want to have a technology relationship with Brazil that gets deeper and deeper with the time. This is just the first step," Carter said

The offer has been made to counter competing bids from France's Dassault offering the Rafale fighter and Sweden's Saab, which is offering the yet-to-be-built Gripen NG.

France has already offered full transfer of technology for Rafale, while Saab has announced its plans to shift half of total Gripen production to Brazil to win the order.

A decision is expected to be made in the next 45-60 days, AFP reports, quoting Tauscher.
Brazillian MMRCA is worth just 4 bln. Indian MMRCA crosses 10 bln. I am sure, if US can agree to transfer technology for Brazil, India can definitely convince US lobby to transfer F-18 technology to India. It only makes business sense for US to agree to these terms as, technology transfer is a prime clause in MMRCA RFI's. US is offering no alien technology to India in MMRCA that will force india to overlook other fighters which are already ready for ToT and meet IAF's requirements.
 

blade

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The only jets in the real pics are SH & mig-35. Whereas typhoon may be considered seperately and procured in small numbers but not as a part of MRCA.
 

AJSINGH

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Brazillian MMRCA is worth just 4 bln. Indian MMRCA crosses 10 bln. I am sure, if US can agree to transfer technology for Brazil, India can definitely convince US lobby to transfer F-18 technology to India. It only makes business sense for US to agree to these terms as, technology transfer is a prime clause in MMRCA RFI's. US is offering no alien technology to India in MMRCA that will force india to overlook other fighters which are already ready for ToT and meet IAF's requirements.
you are forgetting than we have close ties with russia which US does not like ,plus if we talk USA offer , they will force us to sign NPT
 

blade

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you are forgetting than we have close ties with russia which USA does not like
Sir, USA has already agreed to relax most of their previous strings related to ToT.There are a few joint developement projects (related to MRCA only) under consideration by US .
 

Quickgun Murugan

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you are forgetting than we have close ties with russia which US does not like ,plus if we talk USA offer , they will force us to sign NPT
You are forgetting that even Brazil has close ties with Russia. Brazil was offered partnership with PAK-FA project even before Russia offered it to India.
Hilary Clinton's visit to broaden strategic and defence ties was aimed at this only.

US knows that all other fighter planes in MRCA have agreed for ToT. If it is genuinely interested in winning the deal, it will obviously have to cut some slack.
 

blade

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guys my infos are little informal without any internet link to back them up but most of the time they will be spot on. Just wait and watch .. i will try to give u some more interesting stuff in the first week of november.thank you . i liked this gentle forum
 

blade

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VLADIMIR sir , no i certainly don't want that and thats why i dont expect US to sell JSF to us but as far as SH ToT is concerned its almost done just wait for a few months for a formal disclosure.
 

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