MMRCA News and Discussions - Part II

Armand2REP

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I keep reading reports that both in Brazil and India - the pilots who flew the Gripen were impressed with the aircraft. In fact in Brazil, the story is that the air force wants to buy the Gripen but Prez Lula wont go for it. There must be something to be said about the Gripen ??
The reports coming out of Brasil everyone focuses on are from Folah de Sao Paulo, one newspaper with a political agenda against the Lula government. The reports of Folha have been catagorically denied by Lula himself, the Defence Ministry and FAB. Fohla has published unsourced reports that have no legitimacy in mainstream media. I can go even further and call one aspect of them an outright fabrication. Folha says Saab has offered a better ToT agreement which is impossible given the level of US participation in the Gripen. The French government has offered complete ToT for Rafale which is something Gripen can't do. I suggest everyone to wait until the end of the month when the winner is selected before speculation, all will be revealed in short time.
 

Armand2REP

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Exactly, the plane is simple easy to operate and economical of all the other a/c but what SAAB should be doing now is to make sure that they have the NG with all the required capabilities up and flying in the competetion ASAP before the technical evaluation is over other wise they have very little chance of making it

Ultimately i think it will come down to the commercial bidding who has to offer the most value for money and long term relationship , just to add one point looking at our current economical,political scenario i don't think we have to worry too much about sanctions or embargo's anymore from any country as world view of India has changed, we will have NSG weiver, DPP protocol is changing with more pvt players are entering defense market more MNC's have there R&D and manufacturing hubs in India so there is lot of money riding here for them, unless we do something drastic or stupid like invade another country (joking ) or something we don't have to worry about it, so i think F-16's and F/A 18 are still in the race

In brazil i heard tha the president wanted a full evaluation of all the a/c in there MRCA competetion before choosing hence there prez did not approve
Brasil is not waiting for MMRCA outcome, it will be decided in the next couple weeks. The simple fact is, Gripen NG is not at the level to promise what it says without evaluation that Sweden is doing right now. NG development is far behind the leading contenders and is really too early to offer it competitively with out Sweden procuring it first. There will come a day when NG will be the light weight fighter of choice, but it is several years away.
 

pavanvenkatesh

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Brasil is not waiting for MMRCA outcome, it will be decided in the next couple weeks. The simple fact is, Gripen NG is not at the level to promise what it says without evaluation that Sweden is doing right now. NG development is far behind the leading contenders and is really too early to offer it competitively with out Sweden procuring it first. There will come a day when NG will be the light weight fighter of choice, but it is several years away.
i beg to differ
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JAS_39_Gripen#Gripen_NG_and_Sea_Gripen
http://www.defencetalk.com/gripen-ng-demo-returns-to-the-skies-22888/

The gripin Aesa radar
http://www.gripen.com/NR/rdonlyres/...587B1C440D0/0/090409_Gripen_NG_AESA_Radar.pdf

moreover even the eurofighter did not have most of its subsystems not to mention the AESA radar and most of the a/c were not 100% as per RFP

Provided SAAB can convince the MOD that there won't be any problem in the future with respect to key components not to mention they give full TOT (which they will with all aspects of the a/c) i don't see any reason why this can't be the winner moreover as per terms half of the a/c will be manufactured here in india only so with all the changes in the defense procurement policy now & in the comming years & more private players enters the market in the next 5-6 years we will have a much improved scientific and technical base for key technologies to be self relient
 

Armand2REP

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I would direct you to Gripen's own newsletter...

"When discussing the continuing evolution of the Gripen system, it is important to remember that the Gripen Demo programme is just a stepping stone to the fully-fledged Gripen NG (Next Generation) design. The Gripen Demo aircraft will test and develop many of the essential systems and capabilities that will be applied to the Gripen NG, but all of these aspects will be further refined and enhanced in the final productionform of the Gripen NG. As Gripen NG is a platform for the 2015 timeframe, it is clear that many of today’s technologies will have moved on by the time the NG is available."

http://www.gripen.com/NR/rdonlyres/...B42B761A7F9/0/GripenNewsDemo_080414_final.pdf

moreover even the eurofighter did not have most of its subsystems not to mention the AESA radar and most of the a/c were not 100% as per RFP
But it was still the production aircraft. The new radar is not changing any of its flight or operational characterstics nor do they have to figure out production and supply chains. The lack of an AESA array will be a tick against it. Gripen has turn around and slapped India in the face by not offering the NG Demo for flight trials. Gripen should be disqualified.

Provided SAAB can convince the MOD that there won't be any problem in the future with respect to key components not to mention they give full TOT (which they will with all aspects of the a/c) i don't see any reason why this can't be the winner moreover as per terms half of the a/c will be manufactured here in india only so with all the changes in the defense procurement policy now & in the comming years & more private players enters the market in the next 5-6 years we will have a much improved scientific and technical base for key technologies to be self relient
Saab doesn't know what they can offer because they don't even have a production line for this aircraft. It is still in the technology demonstrator phase, not even in low rate production. Gripen NG is as much reality today as PAK FA is.
 

sunnyv

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If gripen had a Eu2000 ENGINE INSTEAD OF f114-AE . I can bet no one would have come close to challenge it in MRCA
Plz remember phase2 of trials require only airframe,aerodynamics,enviornment stress test and avionics fuctionality in dry and cold conditions .
Sensors+Radar+Weapon firing is to be done in Phase3 in april-june trial.
By the time IAF goes for phase3 in SWEDEN , i am sure it would get NG with new radar+new weapons+new sensors to test.
Only question is whether NG has different airframe design or not?????If yes they are out, if no then green light(similar to Mig35,F16IN block 70)

By the way guys any idea regarding number of TR modules on AESA in GRIPEN
My estimate is it wont be greater than 650MMIC module aaray ,if thats true it wont have a greater range than what gripen c&d has.
 
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Armand2REP

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If gripen had a Eu2000 ENGINE INSTEAD OF f114-AE . I can bet no one would have come close to challenge it in MRCA
EJ200 has less thrust than F414.

Plz remember phase2 of trials require only airframe,aerodynamics,enviornment stress and avionics test
Sensors+Radar+Weapon firing is to be done in Phase3 in april-june trial.
It is too late for Gripen, they already screwed themselves by insulting the process.

By the time IAF goes for phase3 in SWEDEN , i am sure it would get NG with new radar+new weapons+new sensors to test.
Only question is whether NG has different airframe design or not?????If yes they are out, if no then green light(similar to Mig35,Gripen)
It is a very different airframe so yes they are out.

By the way guys any idea regarding number of TR modules on AESA in GRIPEN
My estimate is it wont be greater than 650MMIC module aaray ,if thats true it wont have a greater range than what gripen c&d has.
The NG demo is running with an AESA array from Thales. France has made it clear it will not provide AESA for the production version so this hurts confidence in their AESA timescale. As you mention, we don't even know how many T/R modules are supposed to go on it. A paper radar at this point.
 

ppgj

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If gripen had a Eu2000 ENGINE INSTEAD OF f114-AE .
that will only delay already delayed programme.

I can bet no one would have come close to challenge it in MRCA
Plz remember phase2 of trials require only airframe,aerodynamics,enviornment stress test and avionics fuctionality in dry and cold conditions .
Sensors+Radar+Weapon firing is to be done in Phase3 in april-june trial.
By the time IAF goes for phase3 in SWEDEN , i am sure it would get NG with new radar+new weapons+new sensors to test.
phase 3 for gripen is over. check post # 865.

Only question is whether NG has different airframe design or not?????If yes they are out,
very different.

Other changes to the converted B-model aircraft, which at 7t has an empty weight just 200kg (440lb) greater than the Gripen D, include a 2t increase in maximum take-off weight, to 16t. A new main landing gear housed in the wing root has freed up space for 40% more internal fuel, which will increase unrefuelled ferry range to 4,070km (2,200nm).

The new undercarriage configuration also means two Terma heavy stores pylons have been added to the aircraft's belly, with two 907kg GBU-10 laser-guided bombs carried for the roll-out.
http://www.flightglobal.com/article...raft-to-highlight-gripen-ng-capabilities.html

By the way guys any idea regarding number of TR modules on AESA in GRIPEN
My estimate is it wont be greater than 650MMIC module aaray ,if thats true it wont have a greater range than what gripen c&d has.
this is unclear still. however -

Saab has tied up with SELEX Galileo to co-develop an Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) Radar for the Gripen Next Generation (NG) program, a MMRCA contender.

SELEX Galileo is owned by Italy's Finmeccanica Group. It is developing the VIXEN 500E, a small AESA radar for use on small lightweight fighter aircraft. The radar currently does not have any customers. It has approximately 500 T/R modules. There is also a variant with 750 T/R modules under development. The range of the Vixen 500E is given as 35 nautical miles (65 km).
http://kuku.sawf.org/News/57397.aspx
 

Armand2REP

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i do not think so, of all the fighters gripin has the lowest operational cost can land,refuel,rearm and take of from a small highway in ten-fifteen minutes flat!! most value for money and this capabilities has already been experienced by IAF pilots at sweden by the gripen D who were extremely impressed by the fighter’s capabilities they have only have to do some modifications and rectifications which is needed & the Sweden’s flight certification agency, SMV, has ruled that the prototypes require additional flight-testing in Sweden before the aircraft can be sent to India. so the delay moreover oncethe NG is approved by SMV the IAF pilots will get to fly this a/c each of the contestent has something unique to offer in capabilities some gr8 some good so we have nothin that significant to loose choosing any of these a/c
Sure, Gripen has such low operational cost South Africa's Gripen's are practically grounded...


The South African Air Force cannot afford to fly its Gripens


Gary Parsons - 5-Mar-2010


March 5: A South African newspaper claims that the country’s military finances are “hopelessly inadequate” and that Saab Gripen fighters will be mainly grounded due a lack of funds.

News 24 says that the South African government’s strategic plan for defence for the next three years will see 550 hours flown by the Gripen fleet this year, but reduce to just 250 hours in 2011 and 2012. The allocation for this year is mainly for security flights during the football World Cup tournament during June and July.

The South African Air Force has eleven Gripens delivered from an order for 26 aircraft, nine being the twin-seat JAS-39D model and the rest single-seat ‘Cs.

NATO requires fighter pilots to log 240 flight hours per year to remain operationally functional. "Our air force is only barely going to be able to keep two fighter pilots in business”, said a South African military expert to the newspaper.

http://www.key.aero/view_news.asp?ID=1708&thisSection=military
 
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The Gripen had a slim chance for the simple reason that awarding MRCA win Sweden offers little in terms of diplomatic/political leverage,in many ways the Gripen is very similar to our own LCA and even delivery of the planes may not have started until 2013 there was no AESA ready and TOT offered little.
 

Kinshuk

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Lets forget if Gripen NG was even part of the MMRCA at the first place. Mig-35 again has modicum chances for several reasons (we are already having very similar Mig 29K, We can get our hands on Mig-35 anytime we wish to, it will be delivered not before 2014 etc)

F-16- Awesome aircraft, and Lockheed has modified a whole new package for India in the form of F-16 IN, which shares some technology from F-35 Lightening. Though our beloved Neighbor Pakistan has mastered this platform for years now. It would be stupid to dig our own graves if F-16 is selected. Again, too many strings attached to it, which even slims its chances.

Rafale, Typhoon and F-18 are the true competitors without a doubt. In the end, I feel the chances of F-18 is the brightest, provided TOT is not a problem with the congress.

MOD EDIT: This is a Serious Discussion Please
 
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slenke

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Sure, Gripen has such low operational cost South Africa's Gripen's are practically grounded...


The South African Air Force cannot afford to fly its Gripens


Gary Parsons - 5-Mar-2010


March 5: A South African newspaper claims that the country’s military finances are “hopelessly inadequate” and that Saab Gripen fighters will be mainly grounded due a lack of funds.

News 24 says that the South African government’s strategic plan for defence for the next three years will see 550 hours flown by the Gripen fleet this year, but reduce to just 250 hours in 2011 and 2012. The allocation for this year is mainly for security flights during the football World Cup tournament during June and July.

The South African Air Force has eleven Gripens delivered from an order for 26 aircraft, nine being the twin-seat JAS-39D model and the rest single-seat ‘Cs.

NATO requires fighter pilots to log 240 flight hours per year to remain operationally functional. "Our air force is only barely going to be able to keep two fighter pilots in business”, said a South African military expert to the newspaper.

http://www.key.aero/view_news.asp?ID=1708&thisSection=military
Jesus christ... You think South Africa can't afford to keep planes in the air because of the operating costs of Gripen? Do you know anything about South African economy and military budgets? If they had Rafales, they wouldn't even afford to dream about flying them.
 

slenke

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The Gripen had a slim chance for the simple reason that awarding MRCA win Sweden offers little in terms of diplomatic/political leverage,in many ways the Gripen is very similar to our own LCA and even delivery of the planes may not have started until 2013 there was no AESA ready and TOT offered little.
Little ToT? Source? Is that kind of information even public?
 

Zoravar

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The South African Air Force cannot afford to fly its Gripens

Gary Parsons - 5-Mar-2010


March 5: A South African newspaper claims that the country’s military finances are “hopelessly inadequate” and that Saab Gripen fighters will be mainly grounded due a lack of funds.

News 24 says that the South African government’s strategic plan for defence for the next three years will see 550 hours flown by the Gripen fleet this year, but reduce to just 250 hours in 2011 and 2012. The allocation for this year is mainly for security flights during the football World Cup tournament during June and July.

The South African Air Force has eleven Gripens delivered from an order for 26 aircraft, nine being the twin-seat JAS-39D model and the rest single-seat ‘Cs.

NATO requires fighter pilots to log 240 flight hours per year to remain operationally functional. "Our air force is only barely going to be able to keep two fighter pilots in business”, said a South African military expert to the newspaper.
It is not because Gripen has high operating costs,its cuz they have a low budget.
 

slenke

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MMRCA Thunderbolt: $11 billion in the balance, a no-show by the Gripen fighter

The Gripen fighters that will arrive in Bangalore today for flight trials are not the Gripen NG that the IAF has been offered. Instead, two Gripen-D fighters have reached Bangalore


by Ajai Shukla
Business Standard, 9th Mar 2010

The high-voltage $11 billion contest to sell India 126 Medium Multi-Role Fighter Aircraft (MMRCA) is reaching the end of the trials phase in a blaze of potential controversy. Today, the last of the six contenders being evaluated by the Indian Air Force --- the Swedish Gripen --- will fly into Bangalore for trials. But Business Standard has learned that the fighters that will touch down are not the ones that Gripen International has offered: the JAS-39IN Gripen NG. Instead, two older-model Gripen-D fighters will arrive.

The Gripen NG, a light, agile, ultra-modern fighter built by Swedish aerospace giant Saab, has always been one of the hottest contenders in the fray. Saab’s default on the MoD’s trial directive, which lays down that the fighter that is being offered must be the one that comes for trials, will delight its rivals --- Boeing, Lockheed Martin, Dassault, Eurofighter and MiG --- since Gripen is now vulnerable to disqualification.

The arrival of the Gripen-D instead of the Gripen NG has a simple cause: the Swedish Air Force, having opted to buy the Gripen NG, has ordered a series of improvements on the Gripen NG prototype. With those under way, Sweden’s flight certification agency, SMV, has ruled that the prototypes require additional flight-testing in Sweden before the aircraft can be sent to India.

Confirming these developments, Gripen International’s Director India, Eddy de la Motte, told Business Standard, “The Gripen NG prototype cannot come just yet to India as it is required in Sweden for testing and evaluation by the Swedish Air Force which is interested in buying the fighter. Indian pilots have not yet flown the Gripen NG, but we will make sure that they get an opportunity at the very earliest.”

Sources close to the Gripen campaign say that IAF pilots will be offered a chance to fly the Gripen NG during a visit to Sweden from 6th to 10th April. Gripen International will also ask for fresh dates for bringing the Gripen NG to India for trials.

Even without having flown the Gripen NG prototype, IAF pilots have been extremely impressed by the fighter’s capabilities. Besides superb avionics and superior flight performance, they say the Gripen NG can land on an 800-metre stretch of highway; and then refuel, rearm and take-off within 10 minutes. This allows each Gripen NG to fly far more sorties per day than any other aircraft today.

The IAF pilots who have visited the Gripen simulators in Sweden have also been impressed by its electronic warfare capabilities and by the training facilities on offer.

The Swedish MoD’s unexpected refusal to allow the Gripen NG to India for trials has blown the race wide open. From a clear front-runner in the eyes of the IAF, the Gripen NG’s very participation in trials now depends upon a decision to be taken by the IAF and the Indian MoD.
I would call this "not-very-accurate-journalism". There is no such thing as a "SMV, flight certification agency". I would also bet on the fact that the IAF probably have known about this for some time.
 
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Little ToT? Source? Is that kind of information even public?
Gripen's engine is based on GE'S F404 so US would have to ok any TOT
Gripen's BVR Meteor would need the ok from a number of European nations
Gripen also uses SIDEWINDER,AIM-120 and Paveway LGB so again USA/Raytheon ok need
Gripen 's AESA was not complete

Gripen is a great plane, it still had a good chance as a naval version was even considered.
 
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Rahul Singh

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I would call this "not-very-accurate-journalism". There is no such thing as a "SMV, flight certification agency". I would also bet on the fact that the IAF probably have known about this for some time.
Does it changes any fact that JAS-39D is not JAS-39NG? IAF knowing about it or not doesn't helps anything, final decision will be taken by MoD and they will not overlook any irregularities even if IAF or any have done so far. If it is true that SAAB has sent 'D' instead of "NG/IN" then its all over for Gripen in 126 race.

Gripen is a great plane, it still had a good chance as a naval version was even considered.
I think navy has send them request for diversifying the options hence obtaining greater power to bargain from targeted supplier. Otherwise i don't think navy will look towards anyone other F-18 or Rafale. And i bet it will be Rafale because navy is pursuing for this jet for over a decades now and in past they had dumped(unwillingly) their plans because of non availability of catapults as well as Russian condition to gift(what a joke) Admiral Gorshkov on only condition that navy will buy all that will convert this cruiser-carrier into true aircraft carrier strictly from Russia.
 
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slenke

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Gripen's engine is based on GE'S F404 so US would have to ok any TOT
Gripen's BVR Meteor would need the ok from a number of European nations
Gripen also uses SIDEWINDER,AIM-120 and Paveway LGB so again USA/Raytheon ok need
Gripen 's AESA was not complete

Gripen is a great plane, it still had a good chance as a naval version was even considered.
The engine is part Volvo and I'm pretty sure SAAB has the engine part covered.
Meteor. It's the same if India chooses Rafale and India want's Meteor. It would then have to be approved by a number of countries. Including Sweden.
Sidewinder, AIM-120 and so on. Doesn't India have other wepons it wants to integrate? Still, if no American plane is choosen, and Gripen is. They still want to sell stuff, so I wouldn't worrie about that either. American defence companies are getting quite desperate, "Global Hornet" etc.

What about the rumour that India was to have a seperate Radar deal?
 

Armand2REP

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The engine is part Volvo and I'm pretty sure SAAB has the engine part covered
The engines are subject to US export controls.

Meteor. It's the same if India chooses Rafale and India want's Meteor. It would then have to be approved by a number of countries. Including Sweden.
Meteor is a division product of MBDA. The marketing decisions for the missile come from the company of which Sweden is not a shareholder.

American defence companies are getting quite desperate, "Global Hornet" etc.
You mean as desperate as forming a whole company called "Gripen International"?
 

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Saab receives order for Gripen capability boost

Swedish FMV awards Saab SEK2 billion to further develop the Gripen fighter

http://www.defpro.com/daily/details/527/

08:34 GMT, March 11, 2010 Defence and security company Saab recently received an order from the Swedish Defence Materiel Administration (Försvarets materielverk, FMV) for the development of the existing Gripen fleet of the Swedish Air Force. The order value amounts to SEK 2 billion ($280 million, €205 million) for Saab, split over a period of four years.

The capability of the Gripen C/D fighter aircraft is continuously subject to adjustment and upgrading in order that it can operate and remain effective and advanced also in the future. The order includes further adjustments for increased operational effect, like for instance upgraded countermeasure and communication systems. The order also includes other measures to further reduce the operating costs, based on experience gathered from more than 130,000 flight hours.

Also included is integration of new weapons, and the existing radar is gaining an increased range along with new functions. Improvements are also being introduced to reduce the noise and emissions from test runs during engine maintenance. Work will mainly take place at Saab’s plants in Linköping, Gothenburg, Järfälla, Kista and Arboga.

The JAS 39 Gripen lightweight multi-role fighter aircraft is one of Europe’s currently most successful combat aircraft, operated by a number of air forces throughout the world, including Sweden, South Africa, Hungary, and the Czech Republic. Furthermore, Thailand has placed an initial fix order for six JAS 39EBS Gripen which are scheduled to be delivered in 2011. Furthermore, different air forces have expressed their interest in purchasing the aircraft.

The Gripen NG is currently competing against US-, European- and Russian-built aircraft in India’s MMRCA race, is a finalist for Brazil’s F-X2 programme (see http://www.defpro.com/news/details/10235/) and is being considered by Switzerland to replace the country’s ageing F-5s.
 

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