MMRCA News and Discussions - Part II

Parashuram1

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Then nobody will take IIT courses. In the end, people work that hard only for large paypackets from large companies. Who will want to work for the govt after slogging for 4+ years? Bring govt salaries on par with MNCs and then we will talk.
I would consider privatizing the DRDO rather than asking the government to bring salaries of DRDO to the level of private companies. Most governments around the world, work on the principle of guaranteeing citizens a job lifelong but with the downside of low-to-medium level of monthly salaries. This is not a healthy and therefore doesn't have room for competition, hence there is not much progress made especially when considering the standards of slow development and lethargic working structure of Indian government.

It has been a center of focus by most analysts around the world since there are a lot of Indian scientists working much better outside in other countries' defense industries.
 

prahladh

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hi

we should buy or we should try to make planes i dont know when we are able to make advance plnes

we should try to make as much as possible

we should compulsory for all IIT students to work for R& D for our force and nation that will be a good step

jai hind
Not even a generation has passed by since we got independance and we are already planning for Moon. We are reaching the advanced stages.
We need only people who wanna serve in Govt. Orgs for the betterment of this country, not for money. Sure there are better ways Govt should employ to retain/attract talent but not Money.
 

Parashuram1

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Not even a generation has passed by since we got independance and we are already planning for Moon. We are reaching the advanced stages.
We need only people who wanna serve in Govt. Orgs for the betterment of this country, not for money. Sure there are better ways Govt should employ to retain/attract talent but not Money.
That is not a very prudent approach, Mr. Rimser9. I would like to remind you the economic rise of India and therefore the rising consumerist tendency that is gripping Delhi just like any other developed or rapidly developing country. Moew wealth in private hands would naturally attract more and more people into being money-minded as compared to that of Communist governments where the entire wealth is stashed away in government treasuries.

I agree that India needs more dedicated populance but there has to be an incentive of money which is perfectly normal in a democratic country. The only caution Indian public must ensure is to take steps to curb corruption at all levels especially in defense sector.
 

AJSINGH

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Then nobody will take IIT courses. In the end, people work that hard only for large paypackets from large companies. Who will want to work for the govt after slogging for 4+ years? Bring govt salaries on par with MNCs and then we will talk.
truly said , rather we hsould handle Defense industries like GOI handles AIR INDIA OR INDIAN AIRLINES, incentives ased on performence ( Indian airlines pilots get nice pay package ) and to some extent we should let indian private companies take part in R&D
 

dineshchaturvedi

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Then nobody will take IIT courses. In the end, people work that hard only for large paypackets from large companies. Who will want to work for the govt after slogging for 4+ years? Bring govt salaries on par with MNCs and then we will talk.
The key is to make R&D lucrative, provide high salary to people doing R&D job. Make sure the rewards of big achievement be bigger then anything they might have thought of in life.
(e.g.) Give INR 20 lacs (2million) as salary (to start with) and for big achievement like kaveri INR 5 Croer(50 million) crorers each. We do not have darth of money now.

To add to it, government cannot pay such amount due to corruption and babudom. We need private agency, and to add to it add some marketing.

Bottomline you cannot heir a horse on rate of ass.
 

AJSINGH

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does not say much ,for example this extract from the article
" The U.S. lead in defense electronics may also swing the Indian Air Force’s tender for the US$11 billion-plus multirole medium-range combat aircraft in their favor. The IAF has repeatedly said that the avionics suite of the aircraft – which is seen in the Dassault Rafale, Eurofighter Typhoon, UAC’s Mig-35, SAAB Gripen, Lockheed Martin F-16 and the Boeing F-18 aircraft – will be a key determinant in the final selection" that is his intrepretition ,IAF did not say anything about that

another example " U.S. defense contractors see India as a huge market for a number of niche products in which the United States is clearly a world leader. Moreover, they do not need to spend time underlining the fact that China already has access to a number of Russian developments, and buying the same may not therefore give India an edge" not true , Russia not offering them PAK FAGA ,niether upgrades of su and Migs ,not even sam systems
 

p2prada

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The key is to make R&D lucrative, provide high salary to people doing R&D job. Make sure the rewards of big achievement be bigger then anything they might have thought of in life.
(e.g.) Give INR 20 lacs (2million) as salary (to start with) and for big achievement like kaveri INR 5 Croer(50 million) crorers each.[/B] We do not have darth of money now.

To add to it, government cannot pay such amount due to corruption and babudom. We need private agency, and to add to it add some marketing.

Bottomline you cannot heir a horse on rate of ass.
This is not some competition or a lottery. Govt cannot pay that much as of now. We need to be realistic. I have seen our great scientists work. The minute they walk in for work, they want a tea break that lasts an hour or 2. Then they wait for lunch break. After that is another tea break and they stand at the gate at 4:00PM when quitting time is 5:00PM.

This is because the projects are almost always at hold due to feasibility studies. My friend worked on the wing of a plane being developed at a PSU, I will not name here, which has been outsourced to a private company. They changed the requirements 3 times in a span of 6 months. A 2 week work takes 6 to 12 months to finish because of the negligence at the PSU.
 

blade

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As far as i have come to know indian airforce is extreamly impressed with the avionics of SH F-18 and its almost decided that india will go for it.Only thing on which india is negotiating with the USA is about TOT.Even this part looks promising as of now. US seems to be ready to shrug off most of its previous orthodox doctrines regarding TOT & will be ready to transfer even the most advanced and crucial techs to HAL & DRDO.
 

Vladimir79

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^^
How did you come to know?
He is probably refering to the Brazilian tender where Boeing was offering more ToT. It isn't near enough to satisfy Indian needs. US won't let them make any of the high tech portions of the aerocraft, especially the radar.
 

AJSINGH

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As far as i have come to know indian airforce is extreamly impressed with the avionics of SH F-18 and its almost decided that india will go for it.Only thing on which india is negotiating with the USA is about TOT.Even this part looks promising as of now. US seems to be ready to shrug off most of its previous orthodox doctrines regarding TOT & will be ready to transfer even the most advanced and crucial techs to HAL & DRDO.
i dont think USA is ready to give us the source codes to ASEA radar
 

rocky2

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I personally like Typhoon to win the billion $ contract. It's a gr8 plane for air superiority: india:
 

SATISH

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I personally like Typhoon to win the billion $ contract. It's a gr8 plane for air superiority: india:
That is it's major disadvantage...It is still dosent have good ground attack capability possessed by the other contenders.
 

venom

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We Already have Su-30Mki in air dominance role along with Mig-29 which we are upgrading to SMT standard.The primary role of Lca is also air defence & air superiority with ground attack being secondary.FGFA will also be a air dominance fighter.Su-30Mki will be upgraded with Irbis-Aesa starting from 2012013.
Right now what we need is A good ground attack fighter with a variety of missiles & Lgb's,Slam etc.Jaguar,mirage & Mig-27 are the ones in IAF which are entrusted with the ground attack role.The GOI is not going for upgrading Mirage-2000 so all the three fighters will be retiring somewhere between 2020 & 2025 except Upgraded Jaguar darin-2 & darin-3[around 50 and Hal is manufacturing 37 Jaguar IM] & Upgraded Mig-27 [40 have been upgraded & plans are to upgrade 40 more] of the 51 mirage-2000 only 12 might be operational beyond 2025[12 were purchased in late 1990's],so we will bw loosing more than half of our ground attack fleet by 2025.Purchasing Typhoon would prove to be a BIG mistake.We need to go for something which is good performer in both roles & forget about US Teens. look what happened to Iran with F-14, Pak suffering in 1990 for spares for F-16 etc.In any case we should avoid being dependable on US regarding Important projects.Typhoon is out due to high cost & inefficient ground attack capability.that leaves out Rafale,Mig-35 & Grippin Ng.Dassault has lost its reputation as a reliable supplier as in case of Mirage-2000 upgrade for which it is asking 41 Million $ per plane that to no engine & airframe replacement.We can purchase more MMRCA or Su-30Mki instad of paying 41 Mil $ per plane.30 % parts of Gripin are of US origin including engine.So the only sensible option left is MIG-35.
 

Parashuram1

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We Already have Su-30Mki in air dominance role along with Mig-29 which we are upgrading to SMT standard.The primary role of Lca is also air defence & air superiority with ground attack being secondary.FGFA will also be a air dominance fighter.Su-30Mki will be upgraded with Irbis-Aesa starting from 2012013.
Right now what we need is A good ground attack fighter with a variety of missiles & Lgb's,Slam etc.Jaguar,mirage & Mig-27 are the ones in IAF which are entrusted with the ground attack role.The GOI is not going for upgrading Mirage-2000 so all the three fighters will be retiring somewhere between 2020 & 2025 except Upgraded Jaguar darin-2 & darin-3[around 50 and Hal is manufacturing 37 Jaguar IM] & Upgraded Mig-27 [40 have been upgraded & plans are to upgrade 40 more] of the 51 mirage-2000 only 12 might be operational beyond 2025[12 were purchased in late 1990's],so we will bw loosing more than half of our ground attack fleet by 2025.Purchasing Typhoon would prove to be a BIG mistake.We need to go for something which is good performer in both roles & forget about US Teens. look what happened to Iran with F-14, Pak suffering in 1990 for spares for F-16 etc.In any case we should avoid being dependable on US regarding Important projects.Typhoon is out due to high cost & inefficient ground attack capability.that leaves out Rafale,Mig-35 & Grippin Ng.Dassault has lost its reputation as a reliable supplier as in case of Mirage-2000 upgrade for which it is asking 41 Million $ per plane that to no engine & airframe replacement.We can purchase more MMRCA or Su-30Mki instad of paying 41 Mil $ per plane.30 % parts of Gripin are of US origin including engine.So the only sensible option left is MIG-35.
But you might want to consider the bigger picture here. From what I have searched, MiG-35 has a great potential of winning and there is hardly nowhere where it loses out. Radar, super-maneuverability, thrust vectoring, good combat radius, good combat loading, familiarity of aircraft type etc. But the only issue dogging the Indian air force would be the recent arm-twisting by Russia.

Considering the entire cold war study and what goes on today, Russia has changed a lot and they cannot be blamed. Sagging economy, blatant corruption, inflation out of control etc, forced Russian leaders to think otherwise in their dealings with rest of the world; arms export being their prime successful industry after oil and gas. This change became more pronounced as India decided to pursue warmer ties with United States and other Western countries.

Worried that it might lose its second-largest client as it had already lost a lot after USSR's dismemberment, Russia stepped up its pressure on India to stop mingling much with West. However, the fault goes towards Indian foreign policy makers. Instead of assuring Moscow and putting their fears to rest, Delhi continues to haggle.

This seems to be off-topic but is the main reason behind recent chill in the Indo-Russian relations. Due to almost painful delays and lethargic work done in many other deals, the Indian military seems to want to move away from Russian equipment yet not want to lose its prime supplier.

Now coming to the competition, buying the MIG-35 is actually a risk for the Indians as their entire air force would be dependent on one country. the Sukhois, MiGs, the future joint stealth fighter, scores of warships, a prime aircraft carrier, naval fighter jets etc is just too much to be put in one basket.

Since this topic has already been discussed about the Transfer of Technology; let us review the situation once again:

1) Mig-35 will make InAF put all its eggs in one basket being too Russia-reliant.

2) F/A-18 seems to be a tempting offer however there are just too many strings attached in US related issues since Washington is known for its bullying and arm-twisting.

3) Eurofighter Typhoon seems to be a bit too expensive according to many members here. But the surprising fact is that Indian government let Typhoon take part meaning that the finances are not a problem for Delhi at the moment and they have a fallback plan for it.

4) Gripen despite its terrific performance has limited payload, combat range and through engine, has a lot of American strings attached to it.

5) The F-16IN is similar to the Superhornet. Besides, Pakistanis have already mastered its capabilities and this would certainly not be a wise purchase by Delhi.

6) This leaves France's Rafale. It might be expensive but economies of scale are likely to bring its unit cost down considering that 126 immediate purchases shall happen while 74 options will certainly be exercised at a later date. It is a multi-role fighter, capable of good aerial and ground attacks, is from a neutral country and due to less customers can be inducted rapidly by the Indians. Recent news reveal that its AESA radar is ready and owing to the past usage of French fighters, Delhi seems to be pleased with their quality and capabilities.

For a country as big as India, one would need a fighter that has:

1) Good speed to cover vast distances
2) Excellent combat load and combat radius
3) Excellent radar and flight systems
4) Excellent ground and aerial attack capabilities
5) Comes with no strings attached.
6) Has economic operational cost envelope.

From my perspective, Rafale satisfies these requirements. Here in Switzerland, the Swiss government is replacing its fighter fleet as well and considering the size of the country, the new generation Gripen suits us the best. This is not applicable in India's scenario due to aforementioned reasons.
 

blade

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First i would like to beg your perdon for being so lousy at posting.I really dont know how to quote.lolz. anyway no i am not referring to any assurance made by boeing to any third party. As per my sources there is a relentless discussion going on betweel us and indian athorities how to raise this TOT up to the level of TOT that was offered to japan in f -16 production.The importent parts will include the followings. 1. Further upgradation of SH using indian and israeli products. 2. joint production of a completely new AESA for SH & limited TOT for the present AGP-79. 3. To keep the room open for future upgradation where avionics and new weapon addition will not call for any us inspection. 4 To jointly produce a jammer which will be replace SH gowler and not leave it as a lite export version. 5. some kind of stealth features are also being considered but US dosnt seem to be happy with this part as it may involve russian plasma stealth. All these infos are half baked so plz dont slit my throat. I am just sharing what i have come to know. More often than not my infos turn out to be spot on :)
 

K Factor

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First i would like to beg your perdon for being so lousy at posting.I really dont know how to quote.lolz. anyway no i am not referring to any assurance made by boeing to any third party. As per my sources there is a relentless discussion going on betweel us and indian athorities how to raise this TOT up to the level of TOT that was offered to japan in f -16 production.The importent parts will include the followings. 1. Further upgradation of SH using indian and israeli products. 2. joint production of a completely new AESA for SH & limited TOT for the present AGP-79. 3. To keep the room open for future upgradation where avionics and new weapon addition will not call for any us inspection. 4 To jointly produce a jammer which will be replace SH gowler and not leave it as a lite export version. 5. some kind of stealth features are also being considered but US dosnt seem to be happy with this part as it may involve russian plasma stealth. All these infos are half baked so plz dont slit my throat. I am just sharing what i have come to know. More often than not my infos turn out to be spot on :)
The trials are going on, and the Air Force has not given its decision yet. How can there be behind the scenes negotiations for one particular aircraft, which is not sure of getting chosen as of today?

Also, can you please shed some light on your "sources", maybe without being explicit?
 

blade

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I often come across a lot of crap posting both by indians as well as pakis about why india going for MRCA if su 30mki is so damn good hahahah and all that bull shit but the matter is very simple here and i think everyone out here is prety well awar of that. This MRCA contect is much more than just a buying an advanced fighter jet for IAF. Its about a lot of technology , a lot of international politics , a lot of future alliance . This deal will mark the direction for indian foreign policy for a long time to come.From technical point of view this deal will arm indian airforce with that extra bit of element of surprize.It will open us to a new western doctrine & philosophy. This deal is mainly depending upon two aspects. 1. avionics 2. A2G roal. Where air superiority will not be the main issue so MRCA will be there to complement indian migs and sukhois and not suppliment them nevertheless they will also hv a very very powerful A2A capability. The most interesting part of SH will be its passive stealth technology which if allowed to glue with russian active stealth tech can cause havoc to RCS ( which IAF seems to be dreaming at present ).
 

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