MMRCA News and Discussions - Part II

[nitesh]

More numbers of MMRCA, check this out

IAF adds a cherry over Rs 51,000 crore pie: Rediff.com News

It says that since Dassault are quoting exhoribant price for upgrading the Mirages, the IAF will acquire additional MMRCA to replace the Mirage 2000s.

Either it is bye bye rafale or a clever move by dassault to sell more rafale. They might come up aith excellent offer to sell something like 180-200 rafales

 

[ahmedsid]

Either it is bye bye rafale or a clever move by dassault to sell more rafale. They might come up aith excellent offer to sell something like 180-200 rafales

I too feel something of the sort that Dassault wants us to take in more Rafales. They are good business men and wont loose out with such matters. They are even Buying back UAE Mirages and giving them Rafales. Maybe they might do the same for us or something like that. For me there are only two choices in the MMRCA, one is the Mig 35, other is the Rafale.

 

[Blitz]

Either it is bye bye rafale or a clever move by dassault to sell more rafale. They might come up aith excellent offer to sell something like 180-200 rafales

isnt it too big a risk that the french are taking the mrca is not only "just another deal" as was pointed out throughout the thread its a medium of entry into the indian market for next 30 years whoever wins it will get a unchallenged role and big share of the revenue pie of the IAF , will the french be so stupid to take such a huge risk

i feel its the other way round its the IAF who is calling the shots having all the aviation majors vying for a spot its keep the carrot dangling<mrca> and getting the best out of the other requirements, its a way of saying to the french " you want the mrca " they come and bend down to what we propose or else we have the stick !

 

[Arun]

More numbers of MMRCA, check this out

IAF adds a cherry over Rs 51,000 crore pie: Rediff.com News

It says that since Dassault are quoting exhoribant price for upgrading the Mirages, the IAF will acquire additional MMRCA to replace the Mirage 2000s.

If this is the case then the chances of Rafale winning the MMRCA is reduced ,like said in the article.So its Mig-35 all the way ha ?.How come French become such stupid ?.

Since the MMRCA will be a single seater fighter,can anyone post the pic of single seater Mig-35 [not the OVT] . Thanks iin adv

 

[Blitz]

Since the MMRCA will be a single seater fighter,can anyone post the pic of single seater Mig-35 [not the OVT] . Thanks iin adv

is it? i thought mig was offering the twin seater mig-35 D which was to be mechanized for india <MKI> with custom suites and weapons
i have some pics of the single seater maybe will upload on gallery as soon as i find some

 

[nitesh]

There is mix and match of single seater and two seaters. Two seaters mainly used as trainers

 

[Vladimir79]

More numbers of MMRCA, check this out

IAF adds a cherry over Rs 51,000 crore pie: Rediff.com News

It says that since Dassault are quoting exhoribant price for upgrading the Mirages, the IAF will acquire additional MMRCA to replace the Mirage 2000s.

This is clearly an attempt by France to extort money from an IAF desperate for modern planes. $41 million for just an avionics package is absurd, it doesn't even include engines or life extension. While I am a big fan of Mirage-2000, this only exemplifies the point French planes are just too expensive. That is why no Rafale's have been sold in the past decade. With costs for the AESA version exceeding $100 million, it is clearly out of the loop of an $87m cap for MMRCA. Russian officials said just last week French still can't make the T/R modules at the German contractor and must rely on US components. With RD-33MK factory going up at HAL, Russia is going to have a huge advantage getting a production line started up in a short time frame. We are even ready to give India 100% ToT on AESA radars and they already have 100% ToT on the engines. If LCA goes for RD-33MK as suggested... With MiG-35 price tag lower than any other competitor, there really is no other choice.

 

[Arun]

Well all of a sudden RD 33 engines come into existence for LCA program.I am not opposing it but,why if it is so good ,ADA opt for GE 404 in the first place .They could have completed LCA pro and 1st squadron would have started its operation by now,if R-d 33 was selected in the early stages.

That means there is something wrong with the engine that ADA didn't like decades ago.

I know its not the wright place to discuss, but just to validate my point posted it.

 

[bengalraider]

India may go beyond the purchase of 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft

IAF's $11-bn order may become larger

Ajai Shukla / New Delhi October 16, 2009, 0:36 IST

India may go beyond the purchase of 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft.

The winner’s jackpot could soon become even bigger in what is already the world’s most lucrative fighter aircraft tender: India’s proposed purchase of 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) for an estimated Rs 51,000 crore ($11 billion).

The reason is a breakdown in India’s long negotiations with Dassault Aviation, the French aircraft manufacturer, for upgrading 51 Indian Air Force Mirage-2000 fighters. According to senior IAF sources, Dassault has refused to reduce its quota of Rs 10,000 crore ($2.1 billion) for extending the service life of the IAF’s Mirage-2000 fleet by fitting new radars and avionics. The Ministry of Defence (MoD) considers this price — Rs 196 crore ($41 million) per aircraft — unacceptably high, given that the airframes and engines will not be changed.In comparison, each of the 126 brand-new, next-generation MMRCAs will cost some Rs 400 crore ($87 million) per aircraft. That includes the cost of technology transfers, as well as capital costs for setting up a manufacturing line in India. Once those costs are amortised, additional MMRCAs would be significantly cheaper.

Dassault’s India head, Posina V Rao, did not return multiple phone calls from Business Standard. MoD sources say Rao is engaged in last-ditch attempts to salvage the deal.

But, the MoD is veering around to the view that the Mirage-2000 fleet should continue service in its current form. After six squadrons (126 aircraft) of MMRCAs have entered IAF service, an additional two squadrons of MMRCAs would be built to replace the 51 Mirage-2000 fighters. That amounts to a 40 per cent rise in the MMRCA’s numbers.

Israeli aerospace companies have reportedly entered the fray, offering to upgrade the Mirage-2000 for half the price being quoted by Dassault. The MoD, however, is not inclined to accept that offer.

Price negotiations for the Mirage-2000 upgrade have travelled a rocky road over two years. Initially, Dassault quoted Rs 13,500 crore ($2.9 billion), which it brought down to the current level of Rs 10,000 crore ($2.1 billion) after the IAF diluted its upgrade requirements. But the MoD believes Dassault’s reduced bid only reflects the diluted requirements, rather than any flexibility on the latter’s part.

The IAF, traditionally a staunch supporter of Dassault and the Mirage-2000 fighter, is apparently changing its views. Dassault, say pilots, has badly damaged its credibility during the recent negotiations by arm-twisting the IAF over the supply of spares for the Mirage-2000 fleet.

The Gwalior-based IAF squadrons that currently fly the Mirage-2000 are Number 1 squadron (Tigers) and Number 7 squadron (Battle Axes).

Five of the six contenders for the MMRCA contract — Boeing, Lockheed Martin, Eurofighter, Gripen and RAC MiG — know they could reap handsome gains, through larger fighter orders, if India chooses not to upgrade the Mirage-2000. The sixth contender, Dassault Aviation itself, realises failure to negotiate the Mirage-2000 upgrade contract could seriously damage the chances of its Rafale fighter for the MMRCA contract.

The fighters in contention for the MMRCA contract are sequentially undergoing flight trials and evaluation, which the IAF expects to complete by April 2010. It will take another six months to finalise the trial report and send that to the MoD, which will then announce the winner of the contract.

Source:IAF's $11-bn order may become larger

Will this arm -twisting on the mirage bode ill for the Rafale in the MMRCA ,only time will tell.what is certain is that this shall reduce the servicable life of the mirages in the IAF reducing the overall strength. we need to select our MMRCA fast and begin rapid induction soon.

 

[ahmedsid]

Just t doubt, it might be off topic, but Why cant we let the Israelis Upgrade the Mirages? They are a cheap alternative, and they have extensive knowledge about french stuff.

All this is kind of making it look like the Mig will walk away with the deal. But I am apprehensive about the Russian delivery time et al. The F18 had a chance if Bush junior was around, but now, I am not so sure.

 

[AJSINGH]

i dont get it ,why would IAF choose rafale when Mig 35 is better than rafale in most cases ?

 

[p2prada]

Just t doubt, it might be off topic, but Why cant we let the Israelis Upgrade the Mirages? They are a cheap alternative, and they have extensive knowledge about french stuff.

All this is kind of making it look like the Mig will walk away with the deal. But I am apprehensive about the Russian delivery time et al. The F18 had a chance if Bush junior was around, but now, I am not so sure.

The French RDY radar is better than the Israeli 2032. The Israelis can provide a good package except for the radar.

 

[Quickgun Murugan]

Mig 35 definitely enjoys the lead atleast in my opinion. Technically in terms of offer, Mig-35 and JAS Grippen were the best. But, there are several factors which might work against Mig 35:

1. IAF might aim to diversify their fleet from the existing fleet which is predominantly Russian dependent.

2. Russian fighters generally have high life cycle costs.

3. Govt. pressure to budge to US pressure to buy their products. (Which would be the biggest mistake IAF would do. US is never going to help with LCA projects).

4. Already proven bad track record of Russian delivery delays.


IAF will not choose JAS Gripen inspite of all its wonderful offers simply because Gripen is way to dependent on other countries (engine, radar, or the main weapons), what would be a problem if India face sanctions again and it could not share any techs with LCA without permission of them.It again has US components, including engines and avionics.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

i dont get it ,why would IAF choose rafale when Mig 35 is better than rafale in most cases ?

Care to explain which cases?
Rafale has a better EW Suite, it has spectra.
Rafale is said to have a lower RCS compaired Mig-35.
It also has a AESA and OSF(An Infra-red Search Track).

 

[AJSINGH]

Care to explain which cases?
Rafale has a better EW Suite, it has spectra.
Rafale is said to have a lower RCS compaired Mig-35.
It also has a AESA and OSF(An Infra-red Search Track).

okay lets compare the two ASEA radar
Reg RBE 2 AESA specs .

It has got 1000 T/R modules from 2006 itself.

It has got a MTBF of 10 years

It can track a 30 sqft target at 60 Nm while it can track it at 75 Nm

It can track upto 40 targets simultaneously while engaging 8 of them.


Zhuk-AE can detect aerial targets at ranges up to 130 km (head on) in both look-up or look down modes. Look-up tail-on detection range is 50km (40km look down). The radar can track 30 aerial targets in the track-while-scan mode, and engage eight targets simultaneously in the attack mode.

The radar provides target designation data for various Russian made missiles such as the R-27R1(R1E0, RVV-AE, R-73E, Kh-31A, Kh-35E and R-27T(TE) missiles. The radar can distinguish and count closely flying targets as well as identifying targets with known signatures. Close maneuvering combat mode optimizes the system's performance to provide effective vertical scans, coverage of the HUD field-of view, and slew to follow the helmet sighting angles. Special optimization is also provided in the helicopter detection mode, detecting and attacking slow-flying and hovering targets. In the air/surface mode the radar supports ranging, mapping and tracking of moving targets, The radar supports real-beam, Doppler beam sharpening and focused synthetic aperture modes, offering different map scale expansion, map 'freezing', and tracking of four targets, including ground or sea-surface moving targets. It has a sea-surface search mode. The Zhuk AE can detect a destroyer size target at a range of 200 km.

While this pre-production radar operates at the lower end of the X-band and has a lower transmit receive channel count than Western radars of similar aperture size, it delivers power-aperture performance superior to all but the very latest Western small aperture fighter radars. The Zhuk AE employs lower density liquid cooled quad channel transmit receive module packaging technology which is comparable to first generation US AESA designs.

this is about the next variant of russian radar

FGA-35 which will boast an improved detection range of 200 km with 60 targets tracked, the radar will also support a maximum mapping resolution of 1*1m in air to surface mode. The FGA-35 will feature a 700mm antenna with an increased number of transmit and receive modules to between 1000-1,100, a 20 degree incline and a peak power of 6 kW [7].

there you go , now decide which radar is better , and what i said before that is russian asea radar is better than the french radar
Zhuk radar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Phazotron Zhuk AE AESA Radar

i have also provided the link
plus russia is offering us help in developing our own aesa radar , that will give significant edge to them

French Raffle v/s Mig 35
Maximun speed for rafale - Mach 2
Maximum speed for Mig 35 -Mach 2.2

Thrust to weight ratio for rafale -1.13
Thrust to weight ratio for mig 35 -1.42

Max take off weight for rafale -54000lb
Max take off weigh for Mig 35 -65000lb

TVC offered in mig 35 which makes the aircraft to use minimum runway

Max service celling for rafale 55000ft
Max service celling for Mig 35 57000ft

rounds for the cannon in rafale -125
rounds for the cannon in Mig 35 -150

ols being offered in Mig 35 and not in rafale

weapons on Mig 35
The R-27EP is dangerous because it out-ranges AMRAAM, and you probably won't know it's coming before it's too late. Fortunately, only the Russians (and maybe the Ukrainians) currently have this missile.

The R-27AE is dangerous for the same reasons as the R-27EP plus it won't stop homing if you shut down your radar.
The R-77 is nasty. It is superior to the AMRAAM in range and maneuverability (especially sustained maneuverability). The US currently doesn't have a countermeasure fielded against eh R-77,The R-77 is _better_ than the AMRAAM . It has more kinetic energy and less drag due to its short, low drag, wings and its "trellis" tail surfaces which provide better manuverability than conventional fins. This means that the R-77 is more manueverable (and has more energy over its envelope) than the AMRAAM. This, barring suceptability to ECM, probably makes it better in head-on attacks than the AMRAAM. The R-77 is slated for export (as the RVV-AE). Though Vympel has completed the development of the R-77, Russian defense cuts have (so far) stalled production.

And if that wasn't bad enough there's the R-73, which really has no match in the West, suprpassing AAMs like the AIM-9 in all respects. (The AIM-9X, however, will close the gap somwehat on its introduction- after the year 2000.) The R-73, coupled with the HMD targeting system used on the Su-27 and MiG-29 is a very worrying (and potent) visual range weapons system.
Speaking only of "smarts" the R-77 is probably roughly comparable to the AMRAAM. Both will have no problem with ground clutter in most situations. Both will have the same vulnerability to chaff. The R-77's maneuverability will give it an edge against a jinking target, especially if it was a long range shot. The AMRAAM probably has a slight advantage in ECCM, but both missiles are most effectively countered by the same basic techniques (ECM and expendables). The R-77 on the other hand, has a clear advantage in range.
and Novator k-100 with range of 400km and 300km ..known awacs killer..nothing like that exsist in NATO weaponry

It was recently revealed that Russia is testing a new gliding guided bomb, as well as a new laser-guided bomb.



Russia is currently testing a new laser-guided bomb, the KAB-250L (seen here in the foreground), which is similar in appearance and in characteristics to the US GBU-12 Paveway II LGB.
Photo by Miroslav Gyurosi

The UPAB-1500KR ("izdyelye K-070" or "product K-070") is the first Russian gliding bomb. It was based on the KAB-1500KR guided bomb, with folded wings added to achieve a gliding capability. According to Russian sources, the range of UPAB-1500KR is 50-70 km, when dropped from high altitude and at high speed. The target picture is transmitted from a datalink on the bomb and received by the Raduga (Moscow, Russia) APK-8 datalink pod attached to the fuselage of the host aircraft. When the bomb nears its target, the aircrew marks the target, and the bomb is then attacking it independently, at which point it is locked onto the target.
The other new bomb being tested is the KAB-250L ("izdyelye K-045" or "product K-045") laser-guided bomb (LGB), similar in appearance and in characteristics to the US GBU-12 Paveway II LGB. Although there is not much information available on the KAB-250L, the bomb was recently developed by the FGUP State"s Scientific-Production Entity "Region." It has the same seeker as the KAB-500L/KAB-1500L though in a modernized form. The bomb is controlled by front all-moving surfaces, while the tails are fixed. It is designed for export, as well as for domestic use. Testing of these bombs is being conducted by the 929th State's Aviation Test Center in Akhtubinsk, Russia.
speaking about A2G i agree russia has not much to offer but they are developing SDB..with the help of india...there is a reason why we are investing in russian a2a and a2g weapons ...

 

[AJSINGH]

Mig 35 definitely enjoys the lead atleast in my opinion. Technically in terms of offer, Mig-35 and JAS Grippen were the best. But, there are several factors which might work against Mig 35:

1. IAF might aim to diversify their fleet from the existing fleet which is predominantly Russian dependent.

2. Russian fighters generally have high life cycle costs.

3. Govt. pressure to budge to US pressure to buy their products. (Which would be the biggest mistake IAF would do. US is never going to help with LCA projects).

4. Already proven bad track record of Russian delivery delays.


IAF will not choose JAS Gripen inspite of all its wonderful offers simply because Gripen is way to dependent on other countries (engine, radar, or the main weapons), what would be a problem if India face sanctions again and it could not share any techs with LCA without permission of them.It again has US components, including engines and avionics.

i happened to seapk to AVM (air vice mashall Aluwalia ) he said that even though JAS gripen is perfect choice for IAF ,Gripen would loose out because SAAB has ties with the company involved in Bofors scandal and to shake of the bofors ghost would be diffcult for UPA goverment

 

[p2prada]

okay lets compare the two ASEA radar
Reg RBE 2 AESA specs .

It has got 1000 T/R modules from 2006 itself.

It has got a MTBF of 10 years

It can track a 30 sqft target at 60 Nm while it can track it at 75 Nm

It can track upto 40 targets simultaneously while engaging 8 of them.


Zhuk-AE can detect aerial targets at ranges up to 130 km (head on) in both look-up or look down modes. Look-up tail-on detection range is 50km (40km look down). The radar can track 30 aerial targets in the track-while-scan mode, and engage eight targets simultaneously in the attack mode.

The radar provides target designation data for various Russian made missiles such as the R-27R1(R1E0, RVV-AE, R-73E, Kh-31A, Kh-35E and R-27T(TE) missiles. The radar can distinguish and count closely flying targets as well as identifying targets with known signatures. Close maneuvering combat mode optimizes the system's performance to provide effective vertical scans, coverage of the HUD field-of view, and slew to follow the helmet sighting angles. Special optimization is also provided in the helicopter detection mode, detecting and attacking slow-flying and hovering targets. In the air/surface mode the radar supports ranging, mapping and tracking of moving targets, The radar supports real-beam, Doppler beam sharpening and focused synthetic aperture modes, offering different map scale expansion, map 'freezing', and tracking of four targets, including ground or sea-surface moving targets. It has a sea-surface search mode. The Zhuk AE can detect a destroyer size target at a range of 200 km.

While this pre-production radar operates at the lower end of the X-band and has a lower transmit receive channel count than Western radars of similar aperture size, it delivers power-aperture performance superior to all but the very latest Western small aperture fighter radars. The Zhuk AE employs lower density liquid cooled quad channel transmit receive module packaging technology which is comparable to first generation US AESA designs.

this is about the next variant of russian radar

FGA-35 which will boast an improved detection range of 200 km with 60 targets tracked, the radar will also support a maximum mapping resolution of 1*1m in air to surface mode. The FGA-35 will feature a 700mm antenna with an increased number of transmit and receive modules to between 1000-1,100, a 20 degree incline and a peak power of 6 kW [7].

there you go , now decide which radar is better , and what i said before that is russian asea radar is better than the french radar
Zhuk radar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Phazotron Zhuk AE AESA Radar

i have also provided the link
plus russia is offering us help in developing our own aesa radar , that will give significant edge to them

French Raffle v/s Mig 35
Maximun speed for rafale - Mach 2
Maximum speed for Mig 35 -Mach 2.2

Thrust to weight ratio for rafale -1.13
Thrust to weight ratio for mig 35 -1.42

Max take off weight for rafale -54000lb
Max take off weigh for Mig 35 -65000lb

TVC offered in mig 35 which makes the aircraft to use minimum runway

Max service celling for rafale 55000ft
Max service celling for Mig 35 57000ft

rounds for the cannon in rafale -125
rounds for the cannon in Mig 35 -150

ols being offered in Mig 35 and not in rafale

weapons on Mig 35
The R-27EP is dangerous because it out-ranges AMRAAM, and you probably won't know it's coming before it's too late. Fortunately, only the Russians (and maybe the Ukrainians) currently have this missile.

The R-27AE is dangerous for the same reasons as the R-27EP plus it won't stop homing if you shut down your radar.
The R-77 is nasty. It is superior to the AMRAAM in range and maneuverability (especially sustained maneuverability). The US currently doesn't have a countermeasure fielded against eh R-77,The R-77 is _better_ than the AMRAAM . It has more kinetic energy and less drag due to its short, low drag, wings and its "trellis" tail surfaces which provide better manuverability than conventional fins. This means that the R-77 is more manueverable (and has more energy over its envelope) than the AMRAAM. This, barring suceptability to ECM, probably makes it better in head-on attacks than the AMRAAM. The R-77 is slated for export (as the RVV-AE). Though Vympel has completed the development of the R-77, Russian defense cuts have (so far) stalled production.

And if that wasn't bad enough there's the R-73, which really has no match in the West, suprpassing AAMs like the AIM-9 in all respects. (The AIM-9X, however, will close the gap somwehat on its introduction- after the year 2000.) The R-73, coupled with the HMD targeting system used on the Su-27 and MiG-29 is a very worrying (and potent) visual range weapons system.
Speaking only of "smarts" the R-77 is probably roughly comparable to the AMRAAM. Both will have no problem with ground clutter in most situations. Both will have the same vulnerability to chaff. The R-77's maneuverability will give it an edge against a jinking target, especially if it was a long range shot. The AMRAAM probably has a slight advantage in ECCM, but both missiles are most effectively countered by the same basic techniques (ECM and expendables). The R-77 on the other hand, has a clear advantage in range.
and Novator k-100 with range of 400km and 300km ..known awacs killer..nothing like that exsist in NATO weaponry

It was recently revealed that Russia is testing a new gliding guided bomb, as well as a new laser-guided bomb.



Russia is currently testing a new laser-guided bomb, the KAB-250L (seen here in the foreground), which is similar in appearance and in characteristics to the US GBU-12 Paveway II LGB.
Photo by Miroslav Gyurosi

The UPAB-1500KR ("izdyelye K-070" or "product K-070") is the first Russian gliding bomb. It was based on the KAB-1500KR guided bomb, with folded wings added to achieve a gliding capability. According to Russian sources, the range of UPAB-1500KR is 50-70 km, when dropped from high altitude and at high speed. The target picture is transmitted from a datalink on the bomb and received by the Raduga (Moscow, Russia) APK-8 datalink pod attached to the fuselage of the host aircraft. When the bomb nears its target, the aircrew marks the target, and the bomb is then attacking it independently, at which point it is locked onto the target.
The other new bomb being tested is the KAB-250L ("izdyelye K-045" or "product K-045") laser-guided bomb (LGB), similar in appearance and in characteristics to the US GBU-12 Paveway II LGB. Although there is not much information available on the KAB-250L, the bomb was recently developed by the FGUP State"s Scientific-Production Entity "Region." It has the same seeker as the KAB-500L/KAB-1500L though in a modernized form. The bomb is controlled by front all-moving surfaces, while the tails are fixed. It is designed for export, as well as for domestic use. Testing of these bombs is being conducted by the 929th State's Aviation Test Center in Akhtubinsk, Russia.
speaking about A2G i agree russia has not much to offer but they are developing SDB..with the help of india...there is a reason why we are investing in russian a2a and a2g weapons ...

Wow. You are the exact opposite of a guy called John/Keizer. The 2 of you should have met.

 

[AJSINGH]

Wow. You are the exact opposite of a guy called John/Keizer. The 2 of you should have met.

you said it ,i have met John ,even had very heated discussion with him ( u can see that on the older MMRCA thread maybe on the pahe 40 to 50 )

 

[ppgj]

But, there are several factors which might work against Mig 35:

1. IAF might aim to diversify their fleet from the existing fleet which is predominantly Russian dependent.

if IAF is happy with the a/c and meets its requirement it does not matter. india in any case has 70% russian arms in its inventory and had no problems so far.

2. Russian fighters generally have high life cycle costs.

that has been improved substancially. also remember that is offset by its initial cost of acquisition.

3. Govt. pressure to budge to US pressure to buy their products. (Which would be the biggest mistake IAF would do. US is never going to help with LCA projects).

possible. but we can hope GOI will make sure that USA will not play with us.

4. Already proven bad track record of Russian delivery delays.

it existed post USSR breakup. not anymore.

IAF will not choose JAS Gripen inspite of all its wonderful offers simply because Gripen is way to dependent on other countries (engine, radar, or the main weapons), what would be a problem if India face sanctions again and it could not share any techs with LCA without permission of them.It again has US components, including engines and avionics.

agreed.

 

[A.V.]

picture of the F-18 taking off from yelahanka air-force base in bangalore during field trials

seems all field trials are on schedule and going on as we speak , things certainly moving on the ground now rather than on papers only