MMRCA and the Chinese Threat

[Agnostic_Indian]

It proves nothing, what is proof is that fighters don't launch A2A missiles at Mach 1.5. If it did increase range 50%, fighters would have been launching it at that speed since their inception.

and where is proof that fighters always launch missile at M 1.5 ? or they don't launch missile at M 1.5?
fact is super cruise speed increases missiles range as it is mentioned in the link.

Max speed will be the same for each. The rocket motor only has one level of sustained thrust and each missile will achieve that velocity. The only issue at hand is which one will fly further. The optimal launch speed is slightly less than 500kts. This is the acceleration curve the motors using a sustained burn optimally reaches. 0 speed would be too slow and Mach 1+ would be too fast. We have already discussed why super sonic launch is not optimal so I will explain why starting from a dead stop is not prime either. Even though drag is less, the missile still has a good acceleration curve so fuel would be wasted trying to go from dead stop to 500kts. Drag just isn't that big a factor under that speed so hitting 500kts is the sweet spot. The speed above that is where drag starts increasing exponentially.

So, 0 airspeed wastes fuel trying to reach 500kts, at 500kts it hasn't wasted the fuel to reach it, and at super sonic launch, it is wasting half its acceleration curve fighting an exponential drag coefficient it wouldn't have had launched at 500.

again you ignored my source which mentions f 22 advantage over f35.
some how you come up with strange belief that sub sonic release is optimum and missile motor can't handle beyond that, with no source, but your own certification, OTOH I provided you multiple sources which says just opposite. I don't know why you are being so hesitant to accept the reality.so unless you post something credible with source which says "air to air missile can't handle supersonic launch speed and it actually reduces it performance, "other than your own explanations my point stands true.

 

[Agnostic_Indian]

@Armand2REP
here you go again

AIM-7C SAR Sparrow 3
(1955, IOC 1959)
Designed for short rail launch
at up to transsonic speeds (M1.3).

AIM-7D SAR
Designed for ejector launch at
up to M2.2:
here you can see that these medium range missiles are actually designed to launch up to M 1.3 and M 2.2 respectively.

 

[Agnostic_Indian]

Another one
R-27R AA-10 Alamo-A , semi-
active radar homing. Launch range
from Mach 1.4, 11 km altitude: 60
km (head-on) / 21 km (tail-on).


R-27 (air-to-air missile) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Agnostic_Indian]

 

[Mariner HK]

Eurofighter Typhoon vs Dassault Rafale

Eurofighter Typhoon is one of the worlds most advanced new generation multi-role/swing-role combat aircraft available on the market. With 707 aircraft ordered by six nations (Germany, Italy, Spain, United Kingdom, Austria and the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia), and in service with all nations, the aircraft is Europe's largest military collaborative program. Eurofighter Typhoon is the only fighter to offer wide-ranging operational capabilities whilst at the same time delivering unparalleled fleet effectiveness.

When the RAFALE program was launched, the Armée de l'Air and the Marine Nationale (the French Air Force and the French Navy) published a joint requirement for a balanced multirole aircraft that would be able to replace seven types of combat aircraft then in use. Versatile and best in all categories of missions, the RAFALE is a true "force multiplier" This is what Dassault Aviation says about their pride and joy and it's really interesting since they put too much emphasis on words like "omni role" & "multi role".

The reason for comparing the capabilities of these aircraft's is because they have both been shortlisted by the Indian Air Force for the MMRCA (Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft) deal which is a tender for 126 (could go upto 200) multi role fighters to replenish and replace the IAF's dwindling squadrons.

The Typhoon and the Rafale were the ones the IAF shortlisted because they offer more in long term commitment in the form of technology and service this decision supersedes more over than petty technical details although IAF is looking for a platform which has true Multi-Role capabilities which include air to air missions, air to ground and air to sea as well. So the platform must be able to perform in the most adverse of conditions which includes searing heat and humidity to the frost bitten cold of the Ladakh.

Dassault Aviation is under pressure since they haven't been able to make a single sale of their aircraft outside their own country so this deal is a game changer to them and we shouldn't be surprised if we see them tossing everything from full Transfer of Technology (ToT) for everything including their RBE-2AA AESA radars to promising the fitment of the indigenous Kaveri-GTX 35VS into the aircraft as well into the batter and denying the opportunity to block future sales of the same platform to the PAF (Pakistani Air Force) only further sweetens things up.

Eurofighter on the other hand has had a lot of sales with over 707 aircraft ordered by six countries. But this doesn't mean that they have no interest in India especially since the amount of money involved is no laughing matter US$ 12 billion is hard to come by every day. The Eurofighter Typhoon variant on offer is the Tranche-3.It's equipped with the latest avionics and ECM's (Electronic Counter Measures) and also the CAESAR AESA radar.


EADS (European Aeronautic Defence and Space Company) has agreed to make India partner of the Eurofighter program allowing India to take part in design and development of the future tranches of the Typhoon.

IAF already operates the Mirage-2000 and Rafale is operationally and logistically very similar to their previous cousin. The IAF pilots also love the Mirage's .They have seen action during the Kargil war (Operation Safed Sagar) and the Rafale has had a share of its own action over the skies in Afghanistan and Libya.

The Euro Fighter Typhoon too has been in action over Libya and was cleared for deployment in Afghanistan. Both the aircraft boasts about sensor fusion technologies however they excel in capabilities in some aspects over the other. Typhoon holds significantly more air to air capabilities than the Rafale since it currently has a higher performance engine with the future development and integration of the TVC (Thrust Vector Control) nozzles this is only going to get better. The Typhoon also is more maneuverable than the Rafale thanks to its aerodynamically unstable design and delta-canards.

Rafale on the other hand is like they say a true "omni-role" fighter it has better air to ground attack capabilities than the Typhoon and is capable of holding on its own against an other fighter. Both these fighters are equipped with AESA (active electronically scanned array) radar's. The Rafale is already in active duty with the French Navy while the Typhoon on the other hand is yet to do so although a plan for the development of a naval Typhoon is underway.

Both these fighter are state of the art and are more than capable of dealing with what the adversaries might throw against the Indian Air Force in the future although it's pretty difficult to say even now which air craft the IAF might go for and comparatively both these aircraft are so alike in operational aspects so the selling point might come in the form of additional package on offer with these fighters.

 

[Mariner HK]

 

[Mariner HK]

It proves nothing, what is proof is that fighters don't launch A2A missiles at Mach 1.5. If it did increase range 50%, fighters would have been launching it at that speed since their inception.

dude its about speed and most importantly altitude which rafale cant fly higher than su 35 ...can they?

 

[Mariner HK]

Born to beat the BEST !!!! RUSSIAN STYLE

 

[Mariner HK]

There have been reports that Russian military worries that providing China with advanced weapons may threaten Russian security while Russian military industry circles worry that China may steal Russian technology by reverse engineering, but Russian President Putin insists that there should be the arms deals. Why? For the sake of Sino-Russian Cold War partnership against the US.

China's Chinese Communist Party (CCP) autocracy and Russian Putin autocracies may in essence support each other while the US pivot to Asia constitutes a threat to both China and Russia. Influential US Sixty Minutes Plus's support in its recent report for Russian youngsters' opposition to Putin's autocracy is a clear example of US people's mindset. As a democracy, US government has to obey the people's will and the media can be dominant.

Chinese government's mouthpiece huanqiu.com reflects the situation well in its report "Insider story of China's purchase of Su-35 fighter, Radar and engine are the keys" on March 28. It says:

Canada's Kanwa Defense monthly publishes an article in its April issue (published ahead of schedule) titled "Russia and China Signed Su-35 Purchase Deal". The following are excerpts of the article:

The journal quotes top management of Russian military industry as saying that Russia and China have signed the "Confirmation Agreement on the Purchase of Su-35 Multipurpose Fighters". It is not a formal purchase agreement, but the smooth implementation of the agreement means great progress in Sino-Russian relationship as strategic partners.

An authoritative source confirms that the number of purchase in the agreement is 24 and China does not request any technological transfer, including 117S engines.

Informed sources say that China hopes to purchase Su-35 because the IRBIS-E passive phase array radar and 117S engine Su-35 uses are the most advanced equipment in the world.

That was the first time that the most authoritative Russian military industry top management confirmed that Sino-Russian military cooperation would be greatly enhanced and regarded the purchase of Su-35 as a new wave of purchase. The source says, "At present, there are talks on specific technological details and prices; therefore, we have to prepare a formal contract, which maybe will be signed at the end of 2013. Intensive talks are being carried out mainly on what weapon system China needs."

The journal's analysts believe: There is fairly great possibility that China will sign the final purchase contract because:

The Su-35 issue is first of all a political decision. Russian source stressed: "All arms deals, especially major arms deals are political decisions."

Chinese military has already entered the era of attaching great importance to static and strategic air force. Due to causes of military technology, Chinese air force needs a fourth-generation engine like 117S. With it, the J-20 fighter jet under development will have supersonic cruise capability and be upgraded as a standard fifth-generation fighter.

Nor will there be great possibility in any change in the radar in the Su-35, i.e. the IRBIS-E radar, sold to China, but there may be adjustment in software for Chinese version of Su-35. There is the allegation that in order to reduce the price, China may choose a different radar. However, according to Russian authoritative aviation experts, that does not make sense as the great increase in Su-35's power output precisely aims at satisfying the need of IRBIS-E radar.

There seems to be a sign of renewed contact in the field of radar technological cooperation. The two sides are now discussing the possibility of joint development of passive phase array radar. That shows that China still has difficulties in developing that kind of radar.

If Chinese air force has really obtained Su-35, there will be a further all-round change in the air strategic situation in Asia-pacific region.

Source: huanqiu.com "Insider story of China's purchase of Su-35 fighter, Radar and engine are the keys" (translated from Chinese by Chan Kai Yee)

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The emergence of a new Cold War – China and Russia against the US

 

[Armand2REP]

dude its about speed and most importantly altitude which rafale cant fly higher than su 35 ...can they?

It is really about avionics and weapons. Su-35 isn't even going to see a Spectra protected Rafale before a Meteor smashes through his cockpit.

 

[Mariner HK]

It is really about avionics and weapons. Su-35 isn't even going to see a Spectra protected Rafale before a Meteor smashes through his cockpit.

hahaha not again..Hope u had more debate on R 77 missile... how meteor will smash Su35 if it out of meteor range ?

 

[Mariner HK]

It is really about avionics and weapons. Su-35 isn't even going to see a Spectra protected Rafale before a Meteor smashes through his cockpit.

 

[Mariner HK]

Su35 made to beat EF. EF is better Aircraft than Rafale

 

[roma]

this entire thread reminds me of of boys playing with toys when they fear approaching women

there already exist ample resources to get rid of the intruders - the only remaining armament is the determination to strike - india has numerous weapons including low yield nukes which are very useful as radiation weapons and a whole load more - bringin in mmrca wont change a thing if it is no one has the determination to use them - it is a question of determination and not resources which are already there - sure we need more and the mmrca would help , but we are even at this time not resourceless , just seriously lacking in determination , that's the main problem , solve it and we shouldnt be seeing more incursions for a looong time, avoid facing that fact and we can expect further incursions . .

 

[Bhadra]

=roma;721968]this entire thread reminds me of of boys playing with toys when they fear approaching women

Why woman ?? Ha Ha Ha you mean even boys !!

there already exist ample resources to get rid of the intruders - the only remaining armament is the determination to strike

And what are those resorces. The ditermination must emenate from capabilities. Risks must be calculated.

- india has numerous weapons including low yield nukes which are very useful as radiation weapons and a whole load more

Nuclear weapon on the roof of India called Ladakh. where will the fall out go ? Tibet which is dear to India and flow down the shyok river destroying Leh, adjoining araes and Pakistan. No Baba do not talk of tactical nukes for Chinese around DBO. I do not thing it is feasible. Conventional Brahmos and Prithvies, Prahar, Smerch would be useful.

- bringin in mmrca wont change a thing if it is no one has the determination to use them - it is a question of determination and not resources which are already there - sure we need more and the mmrca would help , but we are even at this time not resourceless , just seriously lacking in determination , that's the main problem , solve it and we shouldnt be seeing more incursions for a looong time, avoid facing that fact and we can expect further incursions . .

Why do not you lobby with French to give one sqadron of MMRCA to be tested against Chinese in Ladakh. If those succeed we will surely buy.. It is good opportunity..

What India needs is a battery of good wrestlers who can push the chinese beyond Kunlun mountains !!