MMRCA and the Chinese Threat

[Agnostic_Indian]

sir please let me know how iaf will counter su35 , hou are talking future , pls tell me how to fill the gap .

Tell me how to counter them .

What will be ratio in war , don' t you know su30 mki deployment on china border is meaningles.

countering doesn't always means number to number or capability to capability, we can't match China in numbers, and they will overtake us in quality also in near future. what we can do is 'have a minimum dettrance ". why didn't we carried out an attack on pak terror camps despite having numerical and technological superiority ?because they have enough power to inflict to acceptable damage to Indian. so we decided it's not worth it.
there is no need to go hyper on a purchase of few number of jets by China, it has not much significance, if you are to worry about China, then better option is to worry about their long range ballistic missiles and ingeniously developed(although copy act ) fighter jets which can be mass produced to overwhelm and counter even superior technology with sheer numbers.

 

[p2prada]

sir please let me know how iaf will counter su35 , hou are talking future , pls tell me how to fill the gap .

MKIs and Super MKIs. FGFA in the future.

What will be ratio in war , don' t you know su30 mki deployment on china border is meaningles.

Why? They are already deployed there anyway.

 

[Mariner HK]

Rafale is still an obsolete air to air platform compared to F-22/F-35.

Also, Su-35s RCS is much smaller than the older Flanker RCS figures. Something like the F/A-18 Hornet vs the F/A-18 Super Hornet.

We don't know what is Su-35s current frontal RCS. It could very well be below F-16s RCS heck it could even be at Super Hornet's level.

its 1 m^2 very very very closer to rafal's

 

[Mariner HK]

Rafale born to be the Best But su 35 Bron to beat the BEST Check this video...Compare it with rafale and its EW suit..[video=youtube_share;DK2d0LRWrbY]http://youtu.be/DK2d0LRWrbY[/video]

 

[Mariner HK]

Su-35 Most Advanced Russian Fighter -- Performance -: * Maximum speed: 2,450 km/h (1,520 mph) * Range: 4,000 km (2,500 mi) * Service ceiling: 18,000 m (59,100 ft) * Rate of climb: 230 m/s (45,245 ft/min) * Wing loading: 85.1 lb/ft² (414.5 kg/ft²)[video=youtube_share;Z-ilcodoppc]http://youtu.be/Z-ilcodoppc[/video]

Powerplant: two 142.2 kN (31,970 lb st) NPO Saturn / UMPO AL-41F1 (izdeliye 117S) afterburning turbofans

Dimensions: length 21.9 m (71 ft 10 in) ; height 5.9 m (19 ft 4 in); wing span 15.3 m (50 ft 2½ in)

Weights: empty 18,400 kg (40,570 lb); Normal Take-Off Weight 25,300 kg (55,780 lb); Max Take-Off Weight 34,500 kg (76,060 lb); Internal Fuel: 11,500 kg (25,350 lb)

Performance: max level speed at 11,000m (36,000 ft) Mach 2.25 or 2,400 km/h (1,490 mph); at sea level 1,400 km/h (870 mph); service ceiling 18,000 m (59,000 ft); G-limit: +9

Armament: one internal GSh-301 30mm cannon with 150 rounds; up to 8,000 kg (17,640 lb) of ordnance carried on up to twelve external hardpoints, including air-to-air missiles, freefall and cluster bombs, unguided rockets, external fuel tanks, guided bombs and air-to-surface missiles.


rafale wont stand against this beast....

 

[Mariner HK]

its better to even see thing it does... better than rafale lol... we need to rethink...mmrca deal... Its lots of money..

 

[Mariner HK]

[video=youtube_share;RlCHYwIxgeE]http://youtu.be/RlCHYwIxgeE[/video]

 

[Mariner HK]

Just look at this :The Sukhoi Su-35 displaying the Russian Air Force 100th Anniversary Airshow, Zhukovsky, Moscow.[video=youtube_share;o0eUnHZ7iL0]http://youtu.be/o0eUnHZ7iL0[/video]

 

[p2prada]

its 1 m^2 very very very closer to rafal's

We don't know Rafale's RCS nor the Su-35s.

 

[Mariner HK]

We don't know Rafale's RCS nor the Su-35s.

What? why we dont know? u dont know but we all know.Its in official rafale and su35 site... ok wat if sukoi 35 rcs is 1m^2 its better buy?

 

[p2prada]

What? why we dont know? u dont know but we all know.Its in official rafale and su35 site... ok wat if sukoi 35 rcs is 1m^2 its better buy?

No, we don't know the RCS figures for any of the aircraft.

F-16 and Mirage-2000 are known to have a frontal RCS of 1.2m2 from distances of 150Km. Rafale is advertised to have a RCS figure that is 10 times smaller than Mirage-2000.

Su-35S's figure is very sketchy. RCS is said to be reduced by "several" times. That doesn't say much.

We can say Rafale's clean RCS from front is around 0.1m2 while we can only estimate Su-35S's RCS is 1m2. Gripen C's RCS is 0.1m2 according to a Swedish Parliamentary report.

Only Gripen C's figure came from an official source. The rest are just assumptions and guesstimations.

 

[p2prada]

Toan from f-16.net compiled some information regarding this. I think the last line in bold should say it all.

Comparison among F-22A, Su-35, EF-2000, and RAFALE C

1. Normal take-off：
* F-22A: 27,200 kg
* Su-35: 25,300 kg
* EF-2K: 17,000 kg
* Rafale: 15,000 kg

2. MTOW：
* F-22A: 28,120 kg
* Su-35: 34,500 kg
* EF-2K: 23,500 kg
* Rafale: 24,500 kg

3. Internal Fuel：
* F-22A: 9,330 kg
* Su-35: 11,500 kg
* EF-2K: 5,000 kg
* Rafale: 4,750 kg

4. Maximal Payload：
* F-22A: unknown
* Su-35: 8,000 kg
* EF-2K: 7,500 kg+
* Rafale: 9,500 kg

5. Maximal Speed, 11,000 m：
* F-22A: 2.00 Mach+ (2.25 ~ 2.42 Mach)
* Su-35: 2.25 Mach
* EF-2K: 2.00 Mach+ (2.25 Mach)
* Rafale: 1.80 Mach+ (2.00 Mach)

6. Maximal speed, 200 m：
* F-22A: 800 kts
* Su-35: 1,400 km/hr
* EF-2K: 1.14 Mach
* Rafale: 750 kts

7. Climb rate：
* F-22A: 350 m/sec, sea-level
* Su-35: 280 m/sec+, 1,000 m
* EF-2K: 315 m/sec+, sea-level
* Rafale: 305 m/sec+, sea-level

8. Operational Altitude：
* F-22A: 70,000 fts
* Su-35: 59,000 fts
* EF-2K: 65,000 fts
* Rafale: 55,000 fts

9. Ferry range：
* F-22A: 3,500 km (Internal Fuel)
* Su-35: 4,500 km (Internal Fuel + 2000 L tanks*2)
* EF-2K: 2,600 km (Internal Fuel)
* Rafale: > 2,100 km (Internal Fuel)


10. Acceleration：

* F-22A: unknown.

* Su-35: 13.8 secs from 600 km/hr to 1,100 km/hr, and 8 secs from 1,100 km/hr to 1,300 km/hr（with 50% internal fuel, standard A-A configuration, and height of 1,000 m）.

* EF-2K: less than 20 seconds from 200 kts to Mach 0.9 (Twin-seaters with one 1,000 L tank and two ASRAAM, altitude unknown).

* Rafale: around 20 seconds from 300 km/hr to 1,000 km/hr at low altitude.


11. Normal upper G-limit：
* F-22A: +9.5G
* Su-35: +9.0G
* EF-2K: +9.0G
* Rafale: +9.0G

12. T/W ratio of normal take-off（AB / Max. Mil.）：
* F-22A: 1.17 ~ 1.30 / 0.85 ~ 0.87
* Su-35: 1.10 ~ 1.15 / 0.69 ~ 0.70
* EF-2K: 1.08 ~ 1.14 / 0.72 ~ 0.83
* Rafale: 1.02 ~ 1.03 / 0.68 ~ 0.69

13. Take-off with standard A-A configuration：
* F-22A: 244 m
* Su-35: 400 to 450 m
* EF-2K: 228 ~ 275 m（Emergency take-off）to 457 m（Normal take-off）.
* Rafale: 400 m

14. Landing：
* F-22A: unknown.
* Su-35: 650 m（with the help of braking and parachute）
* EF-2K: 500 to 700 m
* Rafale: 400 m（with the help of braking only）


15. Radar's range：

* F-22A: Tracking target of RCS = 1 m2 at the range of 200 km away --> Detecting target of RCS = 3m2 at the range of 375 to 440 km away theoretically --> 329 ~ 386.

* Su-35: Detecting target of RCS = 3m2 at the range of 350 to 400 km away --> 307 ~ 351.

* EF-2K: Tracking target of RCS = 5 m2 at the range of 160 ~ 185 km away --> Detecting target of RCS = 3m2 at the range of 200 to 272 km away theoretically --> 175 ~ 239.

* Rafale: Detecting target of RCS = 5 m2 at the range of 130 ~ 148 km away --> Detecting target of RCS = 3m2 at the range of 114 to 130 km away theoretically --> 100 ~ 114.


16. Maximal horizontal scanning angle of Radar：
* F-22A: +/- 60 degrees
* Su-35: +/-120 degrees
* EF-2K: +/- 70 degrees
* Rafale: +/- 60 degrees

17. Capability of multiple target engagement：
* F-22A: Tracking 100 and engaging 6+.
* Su-35: Tracking 30 and engaging 8.
* EF-2K: Tracking 20+ and engagine 6 to 8.
* Rafale: Tracking 40 and engaging 4 to 6.

18. Frontal minimal RCS / Ratio of RCS / Ratio of range being detected:
* F-22A: 0.00015 ~ 0.0006 m2 --> 1 ~ 4 --> 1.00 ~ 1.41
* Su-35: 1.0 ~ 3.0 m2 --> 6666 ~ 20000 --> 9.03 ~ 11.89
* EF-2K: 0.1 ~ 0.5 m2 --> 666 ~ 3333 --> 5.08 ~ 7.60
* Rafale: 0.1 ~ 0.2 m2 --> 666 ~ 1332 --> 5.08 ~ 6.04


19. Su-35 v.s other western fighters:

* Theoretically, F-22A shall be able to detect / track Su-35 at the range of 285 to 440 km / 200 to 308 km away in head to head engagement.
* Theoretically, Su-35 shall be able to detect / track F-22A at the range of 29 to 48 km / 17 to 34 km away in head to head engagement.

* Theoretically, EF-2K shall be able to detect / track Su-35 at the range of 153 to 272 km / 107 to 163 km away in head to head engagement.
* Theoretically, Su-35 shall be able to detect / track EF-2K at the range of 150 to 256 km / 90 to 180 km away in head to head engagement.

* Theoretically, Rafale shall be able to detect / track Su-35 at the range of 87 to 130 km / 52 to 91 km away in head to head engagement.
* Theoretically, Su-35 shall be able to detect / track Rafale at the range of 150 to 203 km / 90 to 142 km away in head to head engagement.

http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewtopic-t-8912.html
Also note that these are for clean loads. Not when carrying combat loads. Except for the F-22.

 

[Mariner HK]

No, we don't know the RCS figures for any of the aircraft.

F-16 and Mirage-2000 are known to have a frontal RCS of 1.2m2 from distances of 150Km. Rafale is advertised to have a RCS figure that is 10 times smaller than Mirage-2000.

Su-35S's figure is very sketchy. RCS is said to be reduced by "several" times. That doesn't say much.

We can say Rafale's clean RCS from front is around 0.1m2 while we can only estimate Su-35S's RCS is 1m2. Gripen C's RCS is 0.1m2 according to a Swedish Parliamentary report.

Only Gripen C's figure came from an official source. The rest are just assumptions and guesstimations.

ok lets wait for other to shed some light on it...Now AM CONFUSED BY U TOO

 

[Mariner HK]

Toan from f-16.net compiled some information regarding this. I think the last line in bold should say it all.



F-22A / EF-2000 / Rafale versus Su-35BM :: F-16.net
Also note that these are for clean loads. Not when carrying combat loads. Except for the F-22.

wow great specs man... Thank you... it helped my cause now... Why we need rafale ? ef and su 35 much better in all aspect... Please u tell ur opinion on this ...am greatly worried buying rafale...Its a scam ...like chopper gate.Our airforce rejected it and intrested with EF... but rafale came back and won.Its little sppoky and wiered..

 

[p2prada]

wow great specs man... Thank you... it helped my cause now... Why we need rafale ? ef and su 35 much better in all aspect... Please u tell ur opinion on this ...am greatly worried buying rafale...Its a scam ...like chopper gate.Our airforce rejected it and intrested with EF... but rafale came back and won.Its little sppoky and wiered..

Rafale is meant to replace our Mig-27s. IAF always wanted Rafale. Its ground attack capability is better than EF. It is more advanced than SH. And the supplier is quite reliable, unlike the others.

 

[WMD]

@p2prada
the post from f-16.net is more than 5yrs old, so it probably talks abt the RBE2 PESA radar.
the IAF rafale will all hav RBE2 AESA radar, so doesn't the range of detection should b better than typhoon's MSA radar?

 

[Mariner HK]

Rafale is meant to replace our Mig-27s. IAF always wanted Rafale. Its ground attack capability is better than EF. It is more advanced than SH. And the supplier is quite reliable, unlike the others.

finaly one good reason to buy rafale,,.. thank you.. but dont you think we have more ground attack fighters ...Tejas MK1 MK2,upgraded Mirage 2000 ,Jaguar , future: AMCA (multi role and ll be used to take out enemy radar and missile instalations and for deep strike mission) ..Now we got sukoi 30mki as gaurdian of indian skies.. My only comcern is real.Two ffront war is real. do u think we can handle both chinese and pakistanis... which are getting decent air supiriorty fighters ?

And If u agree that ef has good air fighting capablities over rafale(which is true, Ef not yet have many land attack options but ef will get all multirole capablities by 2014 ...) then dont u think its better we opt for ef ? as we ll get bigger Aesa radar so the capabilty is huge compared to rafale + A2A superiority fighter + A2G which ll be made usefull with its advanced radar and sensers + Air to ship ... I would rather opt for Naval verson rafale over naver verson su 33 or ef or f 18... rafale will be the best at sea with its playload ans ew suit.... But surely not for Indian airfore... May be 2 squadren will help ans can be used effectivly. other we should have ef .... (Lets leave diplomacy for now) just debate on ability and fighter for our Indian Airforce ... land targets can be handled with other weapons with army navy and mirage and jaguars missiles and even with su 30 mki carpet bombing.
But air superiorities are won by air superiority fighters alone.. Now franc euse it as their frontline fighter as they dont have any other better ac... They relay on rafale at the fullest..
wHY SHOULD WE ? WHEN WE HAVE OTHER BETTER OPTION?

 

[Mariner HK]

@p2prada
the post from f-16.net is more than 5yrs old, so it probably talks abt the RBE2 PESA radar.
the IAF rafale will all hav RBE2 AESA radar, so doesn't the range of detection should b better than typhoon's MSA radar?

range detection is better in su 35 ... 400 km ... which we can use it with bramos airlaunched missile...

 

[p2prada]

@p2prada
the post from f-16.net is more than 5yrs old, so it probably talks abt the RBE2 PESA radar.
the IAF rafale will all hav RBE2 AESA radar, so doesn't the range of detection should b better than typhoon's MSA radar?

Yes, but no 4th gen aircraft flies clean.

 

[Agnostic_Indian]

@p2prada
the post from f-16.net is more than 5yrs old, so it probably talks abt the RBE2 PESA radar.
the IAF rafale will all hav RBE2 AESA radar, so doesn't the range of detection should b better than typhoon's MSA radar?

rafale aesa will have more range than it's pesa variant probably more than Typhoon pesa too, but Typhoon will re claim the position when it gets a aesa, because it can fit a larger diameter aesa.but this range doesn't matter much unless you are against a stealth jet, 4th gen jets can be tracked well before both jets weapon range or effective weapon range.so what matters is stay jam resistant, and have a good jammer and counter measure system etc.