MMRCA and the Chinese Threat

[Mariner HK]

There is no such thing as stealth MKI. Its RCS is 20m^2. Even if you cut that down to 5m^2 its radar still gives it away. Rafale with an a2a loadout is 1/40th of that. With AESA and Meteor any Super Flanker doesn't have a chance. It will be dead before it even picks it up on radar.

Super sukoi... ill rectifi all the drawbacks su 30 mki had... as u said 20m^2 RCS stand no chance against rafale... but rafale need to come to firiable range for meteor its 100 km if am not wrong..but su 30 mki loaded with Vympel R-77M (range:160 km) .. its not as easy for rafale to take 20 m^2 brid down from 160 kms... And super sukoi will have RCS below 4m^2.. One dont have to be a expert to understand rafale ll be takem down from 160 km with ne AESA radar ... And 42 sukois upgraded to super skois will be armed with most powerful sure kill missile BRAMOS... Rafale wont stand with super sukoi(stealth sukoi) and surely not against su 35... its like comparing f 16s with raptor....

 

[Mariner HK]

we can't match China on each and everything what we can do is maintain minimum credible deterrence..
China is not likely to buy su35 on large numbers, what they are interested is in the radar and engine.

as of now mki can handle them, in one more year we will sign deals to upgrade mki.
mig 29 is being upgraded.
rafale is multi role and that includes air superiority role as well, and it will be equal to mki in that role if not better.
and don't forget lca also.

brothr am not saying rafale is a bad bird ...Rafale can give some huge blow to chinese and paki... till 2013.. Now things are diffrent.Su 35 will be soon with china.. But still u wanna have rafale against su 35 ? these copy cat version will go pak's hand as well... China ill be more than happy to gift some 20 copy cat verson to pakistanis. We had MMRCA requirement based on 2002 senerio... but its 2013.. and first rafale will reach by 2016... We need to rethink our whole MMRCA... and future fighter projects by india is all A2G fughters.. Tejas mk1 mk2,Amca (multirole) upgreaded jaguar, upgraded mirag 2000... u got all future A2G fighters still should we go for rafale against EF , su 35 ? I dont think so

 

[Mariner HK]

but brother our su30 will not stand against su35. They also have su30 .

Well don't need to depend on one nation but we need option to counter them.

AGREED ! Su 35 will be a game changer... After all man who fly is more than fighter jet itself ..but u cant fight a war with brave pilot flying in mig 21 to take down foolish rookie flying f 22 raptor... ? :O ITS NOT GONA HAPPEN

 

[Kunal Biswas]

We are getting much better SU-30MKI in super 30 upgrade ..

Let me clear this Super-30mki is much better than those SU-35 china is getting..

 

[arya]

We are getting much better SU-30MKI in super 30 upgrade ..

Let me clear this Super-30mki is much better than those SU-35 china is getting..

kunal you are living in future . Will you prove me how super su is better than su 35 will its just upgraded version .

Pls show some light on how super su30 is better then su35.

 

[Sunder singh]

We are getting much better SU-30MKI in super 30 upgrade ..

Let me clear this Super-30mki is much better than those SU-35 china is getting..

That's what I'm telling to these people, when we don't know at what level of configuration of su35 Given to chinese as we have all those options but then after all we are trying to put some western technology which make them hi hybrid sukhoi.

 

[Mariner HK]

We are getting much better SU-30MKI in super 30 upgrade ..

Let me clear this Super-30mki is much better than those SU-35 china is getting..

Kunal ho super su 30 mki ill be better than Su 35 ? please explain ith spec atleast close to it.... Super sukoi will come close to su 35 but cant be su 35 itself... and its not 30 its some 42 i guess.. and china ill buy arround 200 of these fighters as a follow on order...

 

[Mariner HK]

We are getting much better SU-30MKI in super 30 upgrade ..

Let me clear this Super-30mki is much better than those SU-35 china is getting..

Am really amazed by ur comment... Please check this SPECs by official sukoi and NIIP website...

Below are the similarities between Su-30MKI and Su-35S:
12 Hard Points
8000kgs external ordinance
G-limit 9
Same Air-Air and Air-Ground weapons package
Has Thrust Vectoring
Can house external jammers and all varieties of pods.
Has inflight re-fueling
etc.. etc..


Differences:
Su-30MKI-
Maximum internal fuel - 9,640kgs
Max Range(without mid-air refueling) - 3000kms
Max ceiling - 17.3km
Max Speed - Mach 1.9
Canards - Yes
Crew - 2
Max Afterburner Thrust - 12500kgf, Emergency Thrust - 12800kgf
External Fuel Tanks - No
Composites - Not in significant quantity.
Empty Weight - unknown. Estimated to be around 18400kgs.
Airframe life - 3,000hrs or 15 years(at 200 hours flight time each year)
Internal Jammer - No
RCS - unofficial estimate 11.5m2
Airbrake - Yes
Supercruise- No


Su-35S-
Maximum internal fuel - 11,500kgs
Max Range(without mid-air refueling, without external fuel tanks) - 3600kms
Max ceiling - 18km
Max Speed - Mach 2.25
Canards - No (since radar isn't heavy)
Crew - 1
Max Afterburner Thrust - 14500kgf(gives a massive boost to TWR compared to Su-30MKI)
External Fuel Tanks - Yes (can carry 2 drop tanks of 1400kgs fuel in each of them)
Composites - Yes. Extensive use of Titanium Alloys.
Empty Weight - Unknown. Estimated to be around 18800kgs.
Airframe life - 6,000hrs or 30 years(at 200 hours flight time each year)
Internal Jammer - Yes
RCS - unofficial estimate between 1-3m2
Airbrake - No. Powerful modified rudders act as Airbrakes.
Supercruise - Yes

Radar-
This deserves a separate mention. Because this is where the difference is at its max.
Su-30MKI has a N-011M BARS Radar
Transmitter peak power - 5kw
Transmitter average power - 1.2kw
Can Track- 15 Targets
Can Simultaneously Engage - 4 Targets
Max Detection for 5 sqm RCS - 140 km(Upgraded Radar with upgraded transmitter power, if any in service, its range is unknown.)

Su-35S has N-035 IRBIS-E. The most powerful Fighter Plane mounted X Band radar in the world. Specs are as follows.
Transmitter peak power - 20kw
Transmitter average power - 5kw
Can Track - 30 Targets
Can Simultaneously Engage - 8 Targets
Max Detection for 5 sqm RCS - 426 km
Max Detection for 3 sqm RCS - 375 km
Max Detection for 1 sqm RCS - 285 km
Max Detection for 0.01 sqm RCS - 90 km


DATA FROM OFFICIAL SUKHOI and NIIP WEBSITES. Not Wikipedia!


NOW back to reality BOOM ... campare it with rafale..u ll find SU 35s is far superior to rafale... SU 35s cost 40 to 65 mill USD rafale cost u 100 mill $

 

[Mariner HK]

There is no such thing as stealth MKI. Its RCS is 20m^2. Even if you cut that down to 5m^2 its radar still gives it away. Rafale with an a2a loadout is 1/40th of that. With AESA and Meteor any Super Flanker doesn't have a chance. It will be dead before it even picks it up on radar.

My france friend...Be real ... If u want to see stealth sukoi here it it.. compare it with RAFALE... rafale will have close cambat even with su 30 mki ... surly not with this beast Su 35s

Below are the similarities between Su-30MKI and Su-35S:
12 Hard Points
8000kgs external ordinance
G-limit 9
Same Air-Air and Air-Ground weapons package
Has Thrust Vectoring
Can house external jammers and all varieties of pods.
Has inflight re-fueling
etc.. etc..


Differences:
Su-30MKI-
Maximum internal fuel - 9,640kgs
Max Range(without mid-air refueling) - 3000kms
Max ceiling - 17.3km
Max Speed - Mach 1.9
Canards - Yes
Crew - 2
Max Afterburner Thrust - 12500kgf, Emergency Thrust - 12800kgf
External Fuel Tanks - No
Composites - Not in significant quantity.
Empty Weight - unknown. Estimated to be around 18400kgs.
Airframe life - 3,000hrs or 15 years(at 200 hours flight time each year)
Internal Jammer - No
RCS - unofficial estimate 11.5m2
Airbrake - Yes
Supercruise- No


Su-35S-
Maximum internal fuel - 11,500kgs
Max Range(without mid-air refueling, without external fuel tanks) - 3600kms
Max ceiling - 18km
Max Speed - Mach 2.25
Canards - No (since radar isn't heavy)
Crew - 1
Max Afterburner Thrust - 14500kgf(gives a massive boost to TWR compared to Su-30MKI)
External Fuel Tanks - Yes (can carry 2 drop tanks of 1400kgs fuel in each of them)
Composites - Yes. Extensive use of Titanium Alloys.
Empty Weight - Unknown. Estimated to be around 18800kgs.
Airframe life - 6,000hrs or 30 years(at 200 hours flight time each year)
Internal Jammer - Yes
RCS - unofficial estimate between 1-3m2
Airbrake - No. Powerful modified rudders act as Airbrakes.
Supercruise - Yes

Radar-
This deserves a separate mention. Because this is where the difference is at its max.
Su-30MKI has a N-011M BARS Radar
Transmitter peak power - 5kw
Transmitter average power - 1.2kw
Can Track- 15 Targets
Can Simultaneously Engage - 4 Targets
Max Detection for 5 sqm RCS - 140 km(Upgraded Radar with upgraded transmitter power, if any in service, its range is unknown.)

Su-35S has N-035 IRBIS-E. The most powerful Fighter Plane mounted X Band radar in the world. Specs are as follows.
Transmitter peak power - 20kw
Transmitter average power - 5kw
Can Track - 30 Targets
Can Simultaneously Engage - 8 Targets
Max Detection for 5 sqm RCS - 426 km
Max Detection for 3 sqm RCS - 375 km
Max Detection for 1 sqm RCS - 285 km
Max Detection for 0.01 sqm RCS - 90 km


DATA FROM OFFICIAL SUKHOI and NIIP WEBSITES. Not Wikipedia!

 

[Mariner HK]

That's what I'm telling to these people, when we don't know at what level of configuration of su35 Given to chinese as we have all those options but then after all we are trying to put some western technology which make them hi hybrid sukhoi.

plz check Su35s spec... its not secret project... And do u think EF's technology is inferior to RAFALE ? lol i watched ef video about its technology ....mark my words u will be amazed.... the amount of technology involved with ef... I will be confident to fight head to head with su 35 with EF atleast... defo not with rafale....

 

[Shirman]

Kunal ho super su 30 mki ill be better than Su 35 ? please explain ith spec atleast close to it.... Super sukoi will come close to su 35 but cant be su 35 itself... and its not 30 its some 42 i guess.. and china ill buy arround 200 of these fighters as a follow on order...

mr mariner r u crazy ruskies will give licence prod 2 china of su-35 after their J-11, J-15 n other license copies of sukhoi aircraft....... n chinese have a history of turning back on ruskis on many occasions/times in history

Chinese have brought Su-35 mainly 2 adopt study n 2 certain extent copy their tec on j-30/31 n j-20 stealth fighters........

We will be getting entire su-35 avionics package in pak-fa/ fgfa itself.........why worry if they get su-35.....

 

[Mariner HK]

March 7/13: China confirmed. China and Russia have apparently signed an intergovernmental agreement, as the 1st step toward a contract for 24 SU-35s. Reports credibly place the agreement date as January 2013, but contract negotiations could take a while.

A trickle of reports from November 2012 to February claimed that Russia and China had a preliminary agreement in place, which would let them negotiate a deal for varying numbers of SU-35s. Russia's Interfax confirmed the existence and date of that agreement in February 2013, but didn't specify numbers. Now, a March 8/13 article in The Hindu confirms that talks involve 24 planes, a climbdown from Russia's initial insistence on 48.

The Russians are said to have more confidence that China can't copy their engines, and are also said to need SU-35 orders. Russia has placed an initial contract, but a deal with Libya fell by the wayside when its regime did, Venezuela has pulled back, and even Russia's VVF is ordering follow-on buys of SU-30SMs instead. On the other side, there's speculation that SU-35"²s improved AL-117S engine could be "of interest" for China's J-20 stealth plane. If so, it would be a setback to India on 2 fronts: breaking an old pattern by selling China a more modern fighter than India's SU-30MKIs, and strengthening a competitor to the Indo-Russian PAK-FA stealth fighter project. South China Morning Post | Defense News | Voice of Russia | The Hindu .

 

[arya]

i wish i can throw some eggs on our defence thinktank.

Either they are stupid or they work against our nation.

 

[Mariner HK]

We will be getting entire su-35 avionics package in pak-fa/ fgfa itself.........why worry if they get su-35.....

Allaudin its so cool way of looking at it like ...Chinese got su 35 so what ? comon now... i dont want to change the course of this debate..Till date we wr told tat chinese may have more fighters in numbers but we indian have the best fighters than chinese have now what we gonna say? we got upgraded sukoi to super sukoi and lets buy RAFALE to fight against su 35 ? My simple question is why should we need rafale in first place when we can get su 35 , EF ?which are by far decent fighters... ? Even we cannot win in debate with rafale vs su 35... its a matter of concern ..Su 35 can out match our frontline fighter Su 30 MKI...

 

[Mariner HK]

We will be getting entire su-35 avionics package in pak-fa/ fgfa itself.........why worry if they get su-35.....

YES!!! we are getting pak fa buy 2022... It will be a good fighter.. but what stops india to have 124+46 Su 35 and 200 Pak fa ? compare it with 124+46 Rafale and 200 pakfa

 

[Mariner HK]

"The fighter jets will fly to their designated home base in the near future," the statement said.

The Su-35, powered by two 117S engines with thrust vectoring, combines high maneuverability and the capability to effectively engage several air targets simultaneously using both guided and unguided missiles and weapon systems.

The aircraft has been touted as "4++ generation using fifth-generation technology."

The Russian Defense Ministry is planning to buy about 90 Su-35s, which will gradually become the core of Russia's fighter jet fle

 

[Shirman]

so in ur thinking rafale is inferior 2 su-35 n typhoon...........

plz tell me which flavour of super-drug u smoke bro .....wanna write some drug after-effects on victim articles....

 

[Mariner HK]

so in ur thinking rafale is inferior 2 su-35 n typhoon...........

plz tell me which flavour of super-drug u smoke bro .....wanna write some drug after-effects on victim articles....

haha Sir.Allaudin rafale is known for its multi role... I read many article wrriten by experts .They all accept that if u want to have good A2G role Rafale is the best but If u want to have full blown A2A fighter EF is better one than rafale. Now china buying su 35 .its diffrent senerio altogether... Why we need rafale insteed of EF or su 35 ..plz explain with relevent info related to topic... Dont talk about drugs or after efect ..u r in wrong thread thank u Mr.Allaudin fanboy

 

[Mariner HK]

so in ur thinking rafale is inferior 2 su-35 n typhoon...........

So u think rafale better than typhoon and Su35 ? :O

 

[Mariner HK]

Let do it... Which is best best ? Rafale 100 mill $ ---- Su35 60 mill $

Re: Sukhoi Su-35 vs Dassault Rafale
1. Normal take-off
* Su-35: 25,300 kg
* Rafale: 15,000 kg

2. MTOW
* Su-35: 34,500 kg

*Rafale: 24,500 kg

3. Internal Fuel
* Su-35: 11,500 kg

* Rafale: 4,750 kg

4. Maximal Payload
* Su-35: 8,000 kg

* Rafale: 9,500 kg

5. Maximal Speed, 11,000 m
* Su-35: 2.25 Mach

* Rafale: 1.80 Mach+ (2.00 Mach)

6. Maximal speed, 200 m
* Su-35: 1,400 km/hr

* Rafale: 750 kts

7. Climb rate
*Su-35: 280 m/sec+, 1,000 m


* Rafale: 305 m/sec+, sea-level

8. Operational Altitude
* Su-35: 59,000 fts

* Rafale: 55,000 fts

9. Ferry range

* Su-35: 4,500 km (Internal Fuel + 2000L
tanks*2)

* Rafale: > 2,100 km (Internal Fuel)


10. Acceleration
* Su-35: 13.8 secs from 600 km/hr to 1,100 km/
hr, and 8 secs from 1,100 km/hr to 1,300 km/hr
with 50% internal fuel, standard A-A
configuration, and height of 1,000 m
* Rafale: around 20 seconds from 300 km/hr to
1,000 km/hr at low altitude.

11. Normal upper G-limit
* Su-35: +9.0G

* Rafale: +9.0G

12. T/W ratio of normal take-off AB / Max.
Mil. * Su-35: 1.10 ~ 1.15 / 0.69 ~ 0.70

* Rafale: 1.02 ~ 1.03 / 0.68 ~ 0.69

13. Take-off with standard A-A configuration
* Su-35: 400 to 450 m
* Rafale: 400 m

14. Landing
* Su-35: 650 m with the help of braking and
parachute
* Rafale: 400 m with the help of braking only

15. Radar's range
* Su-35: Detecting target of RCS = 3m2 at the
range of 350 to 400 km away --> 307 ~ 351.
* Rafale: Detecting target of RCS = 5 m2 at the
range of 130 ~ 148 km away --> Detecting target
of RCS = 3m2 at the range of 114 to 130 km
away theoretically --> 100 ~ 114.

16. Maximal horizontal scanning angle of
Radar

* Su-35: +/-120 degrees


* Rafale: +/- 60 degrees

17. Capability of multiple target engagement
* Su-35: Tracking 30 and engaging 8.
* Rafale: Tracking 40 and engaging 4 to 6.

18. Frontal minimal RCS / Ratio of RCS / Ratio of
range being detected
* Su-35: 1.0 ~ 3.0 m2 --> 6666 ~ 20000 --> 9.03 ~
11.89
* Rafale: 0.1 ~ 0.2 m2 --> 666 ~ 1332 --> 5.08 ~
6.04

19. Su-35 v.s Rafale
* Theoretically, Rafale shall be able to detect /
track Su-35 at the range of 87 to 130 km / 52 to
91 km away in head to head engagement.

* Theoretically, Su-35 shall be able to detect /
track Rafale at the range of 150 to 203 km / 90 to
142 km away in head to head engagement.