MMRCA: a do or die contract for Dassault's military business

Discussion in 'Defence & Strategic Issues' started by hello_10, May 13, 2013.

  1. hello_10

    hello_10 Tihar Jail Banned

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    MMRCA: a do or die contract for Dassault's military business

    Dassault Aviation, the French maker of Rafale fighter jet which is in exclusive negotiations with the Indian ministry of defence for the $12 billion Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) tender is facing rough weather at home.

    In the latest strategic defence review carried out under the insistence of the French government, last month, France has capped the purchase of Rafale fighter jets to 225. Originally, the Rafale programme envisaged production of 320 aircraft for the French government but this was cut to 286 later and now to 225. Till date, only 180 of them have been ordered; all of them by France. The company is yet to find an export customer for its front-line fighter jet.

    As a result, the cost of Rafale to France has climbed steadily. The French Senate assessment of the 2013 national defence budget pegs the total cost of the Rafale programme, including development expenses, to the French exchequer at €44.2 billion. Dividing the total programme cost with number of aircraft to be built i.e. 225 gives a per aircraft cost of €196.4 million or approx. Rs. 1,390 crore at today’s exchange rate.

    A cut to Rafale numbers for France poses a challenge to Dassault’s military business which is mainly dependent on Rafale sales. Given the situation, bagging MMRCA, which envisages purchase of 126 aircraft with an option for buying 63 more, is critical for Dassault. However, contrary to initial expectations of a quick contract signature, Dassault-MoD negotiations have dragged on for over a year.

    FE earlier, cost has been an issue since the start besides the company’s reluctance to transfer sophisticated technology to India and meet offsets requirements. In the last few months, questions have been raised by Dassault regarding the role of Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) in the MMRCA. Moreover, the French company is unwilling to be held liable for the quality, timely and on-cost delivery of the 108 aircraft to be license produced at HAL. This is in breach of tender conditions and has emerged as a major threat to speedy contract conclusion.

    Sources FE spoke to said: “Given the slow pace of negotiations it looks increasingly likely that MMRCA will spill over to the next government.” But, Dassault CEO Eric Trappier is optimistic. Reportedly, Trappier said: “I hope 2013 should be the year.”

    As things stand, for Trappier’s wish to come true, either Dassault will have to give in to India’s demands which it has resisted until now or the Indian side will have to relax its tender criteria. Currently, both look unlikely. Given Dassault’s financial situation the company cannot afford any business risk. Whereas, enhanced scrutiny of defence deals in a season ridden with corruption scandals precludes Indian negotiators from extending any concessions.

    In this case, the French company will have to do something special. Eyes are on the Paris Air Show which opens 17th of June at Le Bourget in France. Dassault is expected to lay out a red carpet for the Indian delegation. However, in what could come as a dampener to the French company, rumours in the defence ministry corridors suggest that given the sensitive phase of negotiations, the ministry is expected to tone down this year’s participation at the show. :ranger:

    MMRCA: a do or die contract for Dassault's military business
     
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  3. sayareakd

    sayareakd Moderator Moderator

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    We dont want reliance in MRCA, if he is needed at any place, then Arjun tank factory is place for him.
     
  4. sob

    sob Moderator Moderator

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    a little off topic but this came in ET.
    Will Mukesh Ambani's defence aerospace gambit pay off for RIL? - Economic Times

    He has the spare cash to enter this business in a big way. And now he has tied up with Boeing also.
     
  5. hello_10

    hello_10 Tihar Jail Banned

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    Mig35 is the most advanced version of Mig29s, which IN is currently buying for its newest Aircraft Carrier. with a very powerful AESA, and many 5th gen technologies, at a very low price as compare to other MRCA contesters..... with the fact that Indian Air Force has full training on it too, means it can straight be taken to the border areas after arrival of this bird, with already existing infrastructure of Mig29s in India........... I would favor a deal of at least 50 Mig35 to cover the delay of Rafale, which is delayed to an uncertain time to date.....

    its also on the table that, why won't we straight go for 5th generation PAK FA/FGFA from 2018 onward, as compare to 4++ Rafale, which would also cost almost the same price???? but we also know that Rafale deal is not dead yet, as its a very good multi role aircraft...

    lets see how things go in future but IAF must sign a deal for at least 50 Mig35, to cover the delay of Rafale, if it won't finally get cancelled in future... :ranger:
     
  6. hello_10

    hello_10 Tihar Jail Banned

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    the news as below confirm that Russia would commission Mig35 by 2014, and I think India would also try for the same, at least for a batch of 50 :thumb: :ranger:


    => [​IMG]
     
  7. Dark Sorrow

    Dark Sorrow Respected Member Senior Member

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    Why do you want India to increase its logistic problem?
    Mig-35 doesn't have any great technologies to offer to IAF!!!
    As for AESA French are also developing the same.
     
    sayareakd and SilentKiller like this.
  8. hello_10

    hello_10 Tihar Jail Banned

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    look, if you are going to pay $20bn+ for hardly 126 aircrafts then you will certainly get something out of it... but Mig35 for hardly $60mil each which includes cost of missiles/weapons also, the newest version of Mig29s which IN is currently buying for its new AC, which already has full infrastructure and training etc, hence it may directly be put on the border areas, has many meaning if you know that Induction of Rafale is delayed to at least 2016 now, if not more, which will then require at least 3 years of training to master that bird also, which will eventually put this 4++ aircraft into the time of 5th gen aircraft from 2020 onward......

    you do need to find out, why would you exactly pay around $20bn+ for hardly 126 birds, if even PAK FA/FGFA is offered for hardly around $120mil each????? while we do know that Mig35 with a very powerful AESA radar, along with many 5th gen techs, does put its performance close to Rafale, while Mig35 even exceed Rafale's performance in Air Superiority role... :ranger:
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2013
  9. sayareakd

    sayareakd Moderator Moderator

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    we would rather go for additional SU 30MKI then to go for new fighter.
     
  10. hello_10

    hello_10 Tihar Jail Banned

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    hmmm, India has full production line of Su30mki, full training etc and thats why you have around 270 MKIs on order. but the MRCA needs more like Mig series, and 4++ Mig35 is the best in this regard from Russia right now :ranger:

    and i find, if Rafale's induction is delayed for 2 years, even till 2016, you need at least 24 Mig35 to cover the gap. and if its induction is delayed till 2017, you then need a batch to around 40 Mig35, similar to deal of Mig29k. and if this deal never happen, lets see, then you then need at least 12 Mig35 per year to 2020, until production of PAK FA/FGFA is started......

    and even by this rate, you will hardly have around 12*6 = 72 Mig35 by 2020, for the price around $4.5bn only, which includes the bird loaded with missiles/weapons etc. and I sincerely believe that IAF needs to spend at least this much, $4.5bn for 72 Mig35, to keep itself on the safe side of combat requirements, until it deals with the ongoing mess of Rafale........

    (and dont forget, a true 4++ aircraft like Mig35 which is ready to be deployed on the border even at the time of arrival, with full infrastructure/training etc is already here, has much more meaning than an aircraft which is under negotiation and can't be operational till 2020, the least....... and, do you remember mess of Scorpion Submarines and other French deals, how price of Project75 increased by 3 times in just 5 years with serious delays???? you are just not in the position to ignore alternatives of Rafale, and Mig35 is the best one in this regard :thumb:)
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2013
  11. Patriot

    Patriot Senior Member Senior Member

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    MIG-35 will not do for MMRCA, it is just prototype and all stated qualities are on brochure only. Even RuAF has also not inducted it, may be they are not interested in it, as this is one of the MMRCA qualification that AC should be in service .

    It is not wise to pay again for the developement of another AC and it will take much more time than Rafale that too for lesser capability.


    Talking of P-75 price , we also have example of Vikramaditya, T-90 ToT. No body leaves a chance to screw it's customers whenever one gets.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2013
  12. sob

    sob Moderator Moderator

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    How about going in for F 15 SE in place of Rafael, if there is so much problem.
     
  13. Shirman

    Shirman Regular Member

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    Actually boeing offered F/a-18 E/F blk 3 with cfts and stealthy weapons pod but with strings attached.....both F-15 SE and new F/a-18 series carry 4 Amraams internally so nothing new on the other hand latest scoop is Dassault also is targeting rafale with Enclosed weapons pod and advance mica-er missile and optional cfts to counter ef-typhoon 2020 and upgraded boeing.........
     
  14. sob

    sob Moderator Moderator

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    Boeing has started production so this could be a surprise package. Just a wishful thought from my side.
     
  15. hello_10

    hello_10 Tihar Jail Banned

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    we find F15 SE and Rafale would have 50-50 chance on any tender but Rafale is easy to deal with, while US has first lost their edge on the technologies and at the same time they dont want to even share their outdated technologies :toilet:

    I was favoring Mig35 on the ground that era of 4th generation aircrafts is on its end, you will now need 5th generation stealth aircraft to even deal with your neighbors as its likely that Pakistani will alos have got J20 during 2020s. and till then, a high end 4++ aircraft like Mig35/Mig29VOT would be bought at the rate of 12 per year to 2016/17, if that will be the year when Rafale will be inducted. and if Rafale deal doesn't go through even till 2020, lets see, then you may then switch to PAK FA/FGFA from 2020 onward. but you do need to understand that MRCA deal is on place since 2007, in fact, and you haven't even finalized this deal to date :tsk:. I remember, even Mirage2000-5mk2 was on offer for this same MRCA in 2007, while even right now this deal is delayed, not expected to be signed by even 2014 :toilet:

    => I may repeat again, you will need a full infrastructure for either F15 SE or even Rafale, even if it does has few common parts/tech with Mirage2000H. but a high end 4++ aircraft like Mig35/Mig29vot is ready for service at the time of arrival, its nothing but an upgraded version of Mig29SMT being upgraded in russia right now, similar to Mig29k also, with many 5th gen technologies with a powerful AESA radar etc. its a simple calculation that keep buying 12 Mig35 every year at hardly $50million each, until arrival of Rafale is done :thumb:
     
  16. hello_10

    hello_10 Tihar Jail Banned

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    double post
     
  17. hello_10

    hello_10 Tihar Jail Banned

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    Government's $15 billion Rafale deal faces delays
    Apr 5, 2013

    [​IMG]

    (Reuters) - India's plan to buy 126 fighter-jets from Dassault Aviation (AVMD.PA) could be delayed as the two sides struggle to reach an agreement over the role of state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), two sources familiar with the matter said.

    India picked the Dassault-made Rafale jet for exclusive negotiations in January 2012 after a hotly contested bidding war with rival manufacturers, but it is still to finalise the $15 billion deal, one of the world's largest defence import orders. :tsk:

    Under the initial terms of the proposed deal, Dassault was expected to provide 18 fighters in "fly-away" condition, and then let HAL manufacture the rest in India.

    However, Dassault now wants two separate contracts to be signed - one for the ready-made ones, and another for the rest to be built by HAL, but India opposes that proposal, an Indian Defence Ministry official told Reuters.

    "Dassault says HAL does not have the capacity and capability to assemble the aircraft," said the official, who declined to be identified because he is not authorised to speak to the media.

    "HAL is our main public sector partner. And if needed, capacity and capabilities can be improved. But the proposal for two contracts is not agreeable to the government of India," he said.

    The source said the dispute would likely delay finalising the deal but not derail it. Indian Defence Ministry officials had earlier expressed the hope that the deal could be finalised by July.

    "This kind of deal is complex. This issue is slowing down negotiations. The disagreement is on who guarantees the quality of the planes produced in India, HAL or Dassault," another source close to the matter said.


    NEGOTIATIONS STALLED?

    Dassault has declined to comment on the substance of the negotiations but has said it expects the deal to be signed before the end of 2013.

    Dassault has agreed to supply manufacturing kits and equipment to HAL on time, but will not play a further role in manufacturing after that, the Indian Express newspaper said on Friday.

    Negotiations between the company and the Indian government have completely stopped over the disagreement, the paper reported, without identifying its sources.

    A Defence Ministry spokesman did not have any immediate comment.

    According to a preliminary agreement between Dassault and the government, HAL will make 108 Rafale jets in India, while parts will be delivered by Dassault and its partners, Thales (TCFP.PA), Europe's largest defence electronics group, and aerospace group Safran (SAF.PA). :coffee:

    India, the world's biggest arms importer, plans to spend about $100 billion over the next 10 years upgrading its mostly Soviet-era military hardware.


    However, a recent push by the Defence Ministry to increase local manufacturing of military equipment has renewed concerns about whether Indian companies have the advanced technology and trained staff to build sophisticated defence equipment.

    Dassault has previously expressed doubts about the technological capability of HAL to manufacture the Rafale. A HAL programme to manufacture advanced jet trainers is running years behind schedule.

    Rafale defeated the Eurofighter Typhoon to win the Indian government deal. The Typhoon is developed by a consortium of BAE Systems (BAES.L), Finmeccanica (SIFI.MI) and EADS (EAD.PA).

    (Additional reporting by Cyril Altmeyerhenzien in PARIS; Writing by Anurag Kotoky; Editing by Ross Colvin and Robert Birsel)

    Government's $15 billion Rafale deal faces delays: sources | Reuters
     
  18. sayareakd

    sayareakd Moderator Moderator

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    GOI should ask EF what they can offer to HAL ? that will settle the issue.
     
  19. hello_10

    hello_10 Tihar Jail Banned

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    and thats why I said in my previous posts that keep buying at least 12 Mig35 a year to 2020, until you finalize this deal :toilet: :tsk:
     
  20. sayareakd

    sayareakd Moderator Moderator

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    It appears that you forgot Mig 35 did't clear the trials :lol: So it wont perform as per IAF requirements, better try your luck with IA they take equipment which does not fulfill their GSQR.
     
  21. mattster

    mattster Respected Member Senior Member

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    I just don't understand how the MOD can insist that dassault is responsible for the work that HAL does.

    How are the French supposed to agree to this. Are they supposed to send hundreds of engineers from Dassault to HAL Banglore and watch what the HAL engineers are doing ?

    If the HAL assembly is not done correctly or Uses bad parts - is Dassault going to be responsible for that ?
     

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