Mind defining Brahmanism?

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blank_quest

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Self criticism is important , it can't be limited.. we must have right to get offended :salute: .. Pl don't limit the speech :namaste:
 

sesha_maruthi27

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Criticize yourself and not others. We should look within ourselves and check whether we are correct. This is what all the religions in the world preaches. But in today's world this is not happening, instead everyone is criticizing other individuals directly.

This proves the LONG SAID SAYING,"HUMANITY SHALL DIG ITS OWN GRAVE AND THERE IS NO NEED FOR ANYONE OR ANYTHING TO END HUMANITY AND MANKIND".......
 

LordOfTheUnderworlds

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Some members are taking this personally (and then claiming others show too much victim mentality !). The question was about Brahminism, which is a religious/social/political ideology/mindset. That the name is associated with name of a particular caste has historical reasons. But I agree this is a defence forum and main focus should be defence and geopolitics. When it comes to internal politics, reference to caste system is inevitable because most of political and social issues in India (or Pakistan) have a caste angle. (ask Aakar Patel.)
 
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blank_quest

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Criticize yourself and not others. We should look within ourselves and check whether we are correct. This is what all the religions in the world preaches. But in today's world this is not happening, instead everyone is criticizing other individuals directly.

This proves the LONG SAID SAYING,"HUMANITY SHALL DIG ITS OWN GRAVE AND THERE IS NO NEED FOR ANYONE OR ANYTHING TO END HUMANITY AND MANKIND".......
What is the cause of untouchables ? its religion , whats the cause of suppression ? its Hindus and again the religion ! I don't blame Brahmins alone.. its all Kshatriya, Vaishya, Brahmin all hand in hand .. you can't just blame one. Don't try to divert from the root issue.. it was all due to us.
 

LurkerBaba

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Yeah so Sushruta's caste is recorded as potter, Krishna a cowherd and Valmiki a hunter. And Baba Ramdev is a Yadav BTW, Narendra Modi a Ghanchi and Nitish Kumar also another BC.
But their caste never really changed.Their status changed but not caste.

Can you give me any historical example of Brahmins becoming Shudras or vice versa ? Something other than "Varna was an uber meritocratic system under the Vedic Golden age" line ?
 

LurkerBaba

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Seriously, if you guys hv so much problem with Hinduism you should leave for Islam or whatever suits you..
It don't think its hatred of Hinduism, but more of a desire for a share of the "pie". If that doesn't happen, then its the removal of Brahmins as intermediary to god/spirituality by creating an alternate system.

In ancient times Kshatriyas and Vaishays didn't like to play second fiddle and vigorously supported Jainism/Buddhism
 

civfanatic

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Yeah so Sushruta's caste is recorded as potter, Krishna a cowherd and Valmiki a hunter. And Baba Ramdev is a Yadav BTW, Narendra Modi a Ghanchi and Nitish Kumar also another BC.
Baba Ramdev, Narendra Modi, and Nitish Kumar have the modern Republic of India to thank for their success. They would have never risen as they did in ancient or medieval times.

Its funny how people bring up examples like Valmiki and Krishna being "low-caste" as if that paints the historical picture, while ignoring works like Manusmrti which was actually written as a book of law, or otherwise claiming that the strict caste rules detailed in such literature were never "widely practiced", though the historical evidence suggests otherwise. In all likelihood, the life of average Indians throughout history conformed to the picture given in Manusmti much more than in stories and myths like Ramayana.
 

LurkerBaba

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Its funny how people bring up examples like Valmiki and Krishna being "low-caste" as if that paints the historical picture, while ignoring works like Manusmrti which was actually written as a book of law, or otherwise claiming that the strict caste rules detailed in such literature were never "widely practiced", though the historical evidence suggests otherwise. In all likelihood, the life of average Indians throughout history conforms to the picture given in Manusmti much more than in stories and myths like Ramayana.
And we have loads of historical accounts from foreign travelers which don't paint a rosy picture.
 

SPIEZ

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But their caste never really changed.Their status changed but not caste.

Can you give me any historical example of Brahmins becoming Shudras or vice versa ? Something other than "Varna was an uber meritocratic system under the Vedic Golden age" line ?
Historical examples of mobility in the Indian Caste System among Hindus have been researched. There is also precedent of certain Shudra families within the temples of the Shrivaishava sect in South India elevating their caste
Source: James Silverberg (November 1969). "Social Mobility in the Caste System in India: An Interdisciplinary Symposium". The American Journal of Sociology 75 (3): 443–444.
 

SPIEZ

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Another proof of mobility in the caste system.

Sociologist M. N. Srinivas has also debated the question of rigidity in Caste. In an ethnographic study of the Coorgs of Karnataka, he observed considerable flexibility and mobility in their caste hierarchies.[20][21] He asserts that the caste system is far from a rigid system in which the position of each component caste is fixed for all time. Movement has always been possible, and especially in the middle regions of the hierarchy.
Source: Srinivas, M.N, Religion and Society among the Coorgs of South India by MN Srinivas, Page 32 (Oxford, 1952)
and
Caste in Modern India; And other essays: Page 48. (Media Promoters & Publishers Pvt. Ltd, Bombay; First Published: 1962, 11th Reprint: 1994)
 

LurkerBaba

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Source: James Silverberg (November 1969). "Social Mobility in the Caste System in India: An Interdisciplinary Symposium". The American Journal of Sociology 75 (3): 443–444.
Another proof of mobility in the caste system.

Source: Srinivas, M.N, Religion and Society among the Coorgs of South India by MN Srinivas, Page 32 (Oxford, 1952)
and
Caste in Modern India; And other essays: Page 48. (Media Promoters & Publishers Pvt. Ltd, Bombay; First Published: 1962, 11th Reprint: 1994)
:yawn:

This limited mobility is called Sanskrization. You should read upon the phenomenon, it's nothing meritocratic. Anyways, my question was specific, I wanted historical examples of Shudras becoming Brahmins or vice versa.

I've talked about Sankrization in other threads too. Nobody gave me any examples otherwise

There was some form of upward mobility Sanskritization - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. However, a community could not claim Brahmin status by this method.
 

hit&run

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Baba Ramdev, Narendra Modi, and Nitish Kumar have the modern Republic of India to thank for their success. They would have never risen as they did in ancient or medieval times.

Its funny how people bring up examples like Valmiki and Krishna being "low-caste" as if that paints the historical picture, while ignoring works like Manusmrti which was actually written as a book of law, or otherwise claiming that the strict caste rules detailed in such literature were never "widely practiced", though the historical evidence suggests otherwise. In all likelihood, the life of average Indians throughout history conformed to the picture given in Manusmti much more than in stories and myths like Ramayana.
Bullshit.

Name me FC heros of medieval times.

There is a saying ''dani, bhagat te surme har yug ch paida hundey ne'' , In broader sense Heros are born in every century.

One yuga accourding to 'sushruta' is of 5 years, few says 100 years.

India was always under turmoil, remained under foreign occupation for such heroes to be recognised.

It is not because of modern India but the Hindu values they have inherited under generous Hindu umbrella of enlightenment.

When it comes to discrimination you naive people talk about casteism malignantly prevalent in India. But when it comes to many success stories you give give credit to a generic term like modern India. How could not both be contradicting each other because scope of modern India limits its self only in books, people then remain the same,the castists ones, Isn't it ?
 

SPIEZ

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Please refer to my comment number #50, which I have also included with this reply before out right denial.


Another proof of mobility in the caste system.



Source: Srinivas, M.N, Religion and Society among the Coorgs of South India by MN Srinivas, Page 32 (Oxford, 1952)
and
Caste in Modern India; And other essays: Page 48. (Media Promoters & Publishers Pvt. Ltd, Bombay; First Published: 1962, 11th Reprint: 1994)
:yawn:

This limited mobility is called Sanskrization. You should read upon the phenomenon, it's nothing meritocratic. Anyways, my question was specific, I wanted historical examples of Shudras becoming Brahmins or vice versa.

I've talked about Sankrization in other threads too. Nobody gave me any examples otherwise
 
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LurkerBaba

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Please refer to my comment number #50, which I have also included with this reply.
Yes. Your comment #50 is about Coorgs which moved up the chain from an intermediate position by mimicking habits of upper castes. It's a phenomenon called Sankritization. Nothing meritocratic about it.

However, a caste cannot claim Brahmin status by this method. So my question remains un-answered

See again:
There was some form of upward mobility Sanskritization - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. However, a community could not claim Brahmin status by this method.
 

Bhoja

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OT, but isn't it interesting how these cases of "upwards mobility" only occur in mythological accounts? Do you think that was the reality for the majority of Indians in the ~3,000 years of "Hinduism"?
The Nanda, Maurya, Gupta and Pala Dynasties were established by people who were neither Brahmin nor Kshatriya.
Mahadji Shinde was a Shudra who ruled the major part of north India in the late 18th century.
 

SPIEZ

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Yes. Your comment #50 is about Coorgs which moved up the chain from an intermediate position by mimicking habits of upper castes. It's a phenomenon called Sankritization.

However, a caste cannot claim Brahmin status by this method. So my question remains un-answered

See again:

Why do they have to necessarily claim the Brahmin status, when they were at the higher level?

If not meritocratic, why did they raise above the caste system in the first place?

And as you yourself have stated it is the actions that make up a caste, not birth. Unfortunately the later prevailed.

Sansrikitization or brahminisation or bull shit, this clearly indicates upward mobility in the so called rigid caste system.

Any further denial?
 
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civfanatic

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Bullshit.

Name me FC heros of medieval times.
Um, what do you mean by "hero"? Based on your definition I can find some examples. Anyway there were plenty of brahmins who rose to prominence in the governments of Islamic states.
 

SPIEZ

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Um, what do you mean by "hero"? Based on your definition I can find some examples. Anyway there were plenty of brahmins who rose to prominence in the governments of Islamic states.
Akbar and Birbal????
 

LurkerBaba

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Why do they have to necessarily claim the Brahmin status, when they were at the higher level?


And as you yourself have stated it is the actions that make up a caste, not birth. Unfortunately the later prevailed.

Sansrikitization or brahminisation or bull shit, this clearly indicates upward mobility in the so called rigid caste system.

Any further denial?
What denial ? I have stated myself quite clearly:
Can you give me any historical]example of Brahmins becoming Shudras or vice versa ?
Brahmanism means Brahmins remain top dog. Other people at the "higher level" didn't like this fact and supported Buddhism/Jainism.


If not meritocratic, why did they raise above the caste system in the first place?
You should really read what you copy-paste from Wikipedia. The example you pasted was of Coorgs. They moved up by mimicking habits of upper-caste and not giving some exam or test.
 

hit&run

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Um, what do you mean by "hero"? Based on your definition I can find some examples. Anyway there were plenty of brahmins who rose to prominence in the governments of Islamic states.
You trying to say they rose to prominence because of their cast or being educated ?

Please name few of them.
 
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