MiG 29K squadron base at Vizag soon, says Navy chief Joshi

Discussion in 'Indian Navy' started by kseeker, Nov 7, 2013.

  1. kseeker

    kseeker Retired

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    MiG 29K squadron base at Vizag soon, says Navy chief Joshi | TOI

    VISAKHAPATNAM: In a major boost for Vizag's naval air power, the Indian Navy is planning to set up a MiG 29K base at Naval Air Station INS Dega in the Port City, Chief of Naval Staff Admiral Devendra Kumar Joshi said here on Wednesday.

    "The intention is to have air capabilities on both the Western and Eastern seaboards due to the growing security needs of the country. The first MiG 29K squadron has already been positioned on the Western seaboard at Goa and the next squadron will be based at INS Dega soon," the Naval chief told newspersons after the induction of the Hawk Mk 132 advanced jet trainer aircraft here on Wednesday, adding that some of the aircraft from the Goa squadron were last month sent to Vizag for training.

    While the frontline fighter MiG 29K will be operated from the deck of INS Vikramaditya, which is to be commissioned on November 16 and will be based on the West Coast, the Naval chief pointed out that the vessel would operate on the Eastern seaboard as well as and when required.

    However, the Navy plans to set up the base of aircraft carrier INS Vikrant, which is expected to be inducted into the Navy by 2017, at Visakhapatnam, he added.

    According to Admiral Joshi, naval aviation is poised for a major leap thanks to the new carriers that the Navy inducting. "The high performance supersonic jets of the future would require a trainer that qualifies a trainee pilot suitably and therefore the Hawk AJT has been inducted here. The first four aircraft have been inducted and remaining will be joining the present lot soon. All the 17 Hawk Mk 132 fighters will be based at INS Dega," he said.

    Elaborating on the Navy's acquisition of supersonic jets to cater to future needs, the Admiral said, the future generation trainer fleet would comprise high performance supersonic jets alongside MiG 29K. "We have urged HAL to expertise the productionization of light combat aircraft for Navy. The Navy is very anxiously and eagerly looking forward to operate indigenous fighters on the decks of our vessels," he said.

    Admiral Joshi said that another significant air capability that has been added to the Navy is the Boeing P-8I, a long range multi-mission maritime reconnaissance aircraft, that has again been vested with ENC. "The first aircraft is here and the induction trials are in progress. Another two P-8I aircraft will hopefully be inducted by the end of this year. The remaining aircraft will join the fleet next year. The censor and weapon fit on the board is comparable to the best. The P-8I has been inducted concurrently in the Indian Navy and the US Navy. The country now has the most contemporary of weapons and equipment fits," he said.

    Replying to a question about India's first nuclear submarine INS Arihant, the Navy chief said it was launched in 2010 and subsequent activities like outfitting, installation of various systems and sub systems were being presently carried out at the Port City.

    "The most important is the installation of the nuclear reactor for its propulsion plant and the nuclear power plant of the submarine attained criticality on August 10 this year. That was a significant milestone in the country's naval history as for the first time ever a nuclear propelled submarine plant attained criticality. Between the time it attains criticality and commences operations, a set of activities are in progress. A majority of the submarine's harbor trials have been completed successfully and we hope to commence sea trials soon, after which it will be commissioned," Admiral Joshi explained.

    While refusing to divulge the cause of the blaze at INS Sindhurakshak in Mumbai earlier this year, the Navy chief said that specific lessons to be learnt would only become apparent once the Navy has been able to complete the board of inquiry, which is still underway. He pointed out that subsequent to the tragedy, the Navy had put all its units through a thorough process of `safety standout' for a few days.

    "None of the assets were operated and a very thorough safety audit was carried out in all the submarines. There are no outstanding issues. Once the Indian Navy comes to know what specifically went wrong with INS Sindhurakshak, it will decide on what measures to be taken specifically after the completion of the board of inquiry," he explained.
     
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  3. kseeker

    kseeker Retired

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    OOPS !

    Accidentally posted this AIF sub forum instead of IN.
    @pmaitra, could you please move this thread to IN sub forum ?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 10, 2015
  4. pmaitra

    pmaitra Moderator Moderator

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    Thread moved to IN section.
     
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  5. drkrn

    drkrn Senior Member Senior Member

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    now i understand the reason for almost daily "test"run of the mig29k in vizag.

    can anyone tell why they are flying very close to the ground.hardly few hundred feet above ground.
     
  6. p2prada

    p2prada Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    So, a squadron in Goa, a squadron in Vizag and a squadron on Gorky. That's three squadrons of Mig-29K.

    Once Vikrant is operational, I wonder what will happen to the 2 Mig-29 bases.
     
  7. Yusuf

    Yusuf GUARDIAN Administrator

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    More on order/to order
     
  8. Decklander

    Decklander New Member

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    Sqns are never permanantly embarked on ships. They are based on shore and get embarked when the carrier sails. Even when we will have CBGs, the CBgs will have atour of duty during which time the sqns will be embarked on the carrier but after the tour of duty, they disembark to their shore base.
     
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  9. Yusuf

    Yusuf GUARDIAN Administrator

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    With more carriers planned, the bases could get more MiGs, NLCAs,F-35s (potentially) in the future.
     
  10. p2prada

    p2prada Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    Perhaps.

    Then what about the time when the ship is out with the aircraft, what will protect the base? Not to mention when missions require either Gorky or Vikrant to carry 2 squadrons. Let's also not forget In wants to operate Mig-29s from INS Baaz.

    N-LCA is not guaranteed. N-Mk1 itself is said to achieve IOC in 2018 and Mk2 the next decade. N-MRCA is also a next decade aircraft.

    3 squadrons spread between 2(+1) bases and 2 carriers doesn't really make sense to me. Even R-11 and Viraat had access to 30 Harriers once upon a time, even if it is less than half that today, with a pending requirement for more Harriers which never happened.
     
  11. Decklander

    Decklander New Member

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    if you may recollect, I had stated very clearly that IN will have three more sqns of fighters other than the carrier borne sqns which will also be carrier capable. So these sqns which do not embark and remain on shore will provide air defence of the bases. The original IN plan is to have three sqns for shore defence, one each for east, west coast and one for A&N command. I had also stated that IN will have a fleet of nearly 180-200 fighters of which five will be for carrier ops and remaining three for shore defence. The training sqns will be in addition to these which will be INAS-550 for multiengine recce fleet, INAS-551/552 fighter training, INAS-321 for helo training.
     
  12. p2prada

    p2prada Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    I remember and I do agree with you, this post and what you said earlier when you joined the forum. To answer my question, yes, we need 3 more squadrons for everything to make sense. But those three additional squadrons can only be Mig-29K and looks like there are no new orders to date.

    N-LCA Mk1 are just trainers, N-LCA Mk2 IOC is next decade. Any new MRCA deal will take at least 10 years to bear fruit. Okay, probably much sooner without all the discussions on industrial offsets and ToT, but still next decade. Now, the induction of N-LCA and N-MRCA will make sense once INS Kadamba Phase II-B is done by 2018 and Vishal is ready the next decade.

    So, the only possible aircraft is another order for 45 Mig-29K. That's 3 squadrons on carriers and 3 squadrons on land, at the bases you mentioned, before this decade. We will need one or two more squadrons for INS Kadamba and probably one more in Vizag with INS Varsha. N-LCA Mk2 can occupy those bases with the IN requirement for 45. And 2 squadrons of N-MRCA for Vishal. Total 10-11 squadrons for around 160-180 aircraft including trainers.

    But this setup is not possible without a third order for 45 Mig-29Ks delivered between 2015 and 2020.

    IN says they want 400-500 aircraft before the end of the decade, but there is a concrete plan only for 45 fighters out of the 180-200 expected. The remaining 150 are expected to be N-LCA and N-MRCA which cannot be fulfilled in the 13th plan. So, there are gaping holes in the IN setup, right from the announcement of setting up 2(+1) Mig-29 bases and two carriers to the induction of better aircraft.

    If IN wants to achieve this goal, they have to induct 45 more Mig-29s with contract signature within the next one year + deliveries over 3-4 years and immediate induction of 2 to 4 squadrons of N-MRCA in a Korean style fast-track process the very next year after Mig-29 deliveries end. Too good to believe?
     
  13. Decklander

    Decklander New Member

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    If you may recall, long back there were talks of a followon order for another 45 Mig-29Ks to take the total to 90 ac. This followon order was scuttled for two reasons, first-the IAC-2 design was frozen to be flat top so we needed an ac which was CAT compliant. secondly- MMRCA & Rafale appeared on scene which are CAT compliant and far more capable than Mig-29Ks.
    It appears that revised orders are going to be for about three sqns of Rafale-M and 1/2 sqns of N-lCA Mk1 + 2sqns of N-LCA Mk2. This will make it a total of seven and half sqns. IAC-2 will need two full sqns at its air compliment. IN does not embark very many helos on board its carriers as we have nearly all our frontline ships capable of carrying two helos each.
    The induction schedule will be that 45 Mig-29Ks and half sqn of N-LCA Mk-1 will be fully ops before IAC-1 comes along. The Rafale-M to be inducted around 2018-2020 time frame and at the same time we will have N-LCA Mk2 also arriving. You may also recall that IN wants 3 CBGs to have minimum of two operational at any given time so we need about 41/2 sqns to be able to have complete air element of the two CBGs at any given time. Rest of the sqns will do shore defence duties.
    The IN Rafale-M will come in fly away condition direct from DS and IN is going to have sqns with 22 ac each to be increased to 24 ac later.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2013
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  14. p2prada

    p2prada Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    45 Mig-29s - All right, it will be done in two years.

    8 N-LCA Mk1 - Definitely possible within this decade. Magical date of IOC in 2014 and they had no idea NP-1 will be grounded for a year.

    2 squadrons of N-LCA Mk2 - No hopes for it this decade. IAF version itself may take longer than the magical date of 2016 for IOC. New negotiations for F-414EPE will delay the project even more, if it happens.

    3 squadrons of Rafale-M - I doubt IN can start suo moto discussions with Dassault when there are other competitors present for CATOBAR aircraft. MoD's new procedures won't allow a single vendor deal. So, a N-MRCA tender is definite. Tender = delay. Even if they go for a single vendor contract, Dassault cannot manufacture double digit number of Rafale-Ms. They have a limit of 25-30 a year and most of them are for RafaleB/Cs.

    Why is it 22/24 per squad? Black Panthers was established with 15 aircraft (12 + 3).
     
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  15. Truth Finder

    Truth Finder Regular Member

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    Go India go.:thumb:
     
  16. Decklander

    Decklander New Member

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    You can establish a sqn even with one ac, take the case of IN hawk sqn, it has been created with just four ac. The numbers will build up over a period of time as more ac are delivered and more pilots are available to fly them. Rafale-M is of same type as Rafale so it won't need a new tender, just a follow on order as per MOD rules. We were supposed to buy 105 M2K on the similar route and we have purchased more T-90s based on same rule.
    Refarding Rafale-M, IN does not need them till about 2020 till IAC-2 is launched. Rafale-M is CATOBAR and SATOBAR compliant so it can operate from Vikky, IAC-1&2 easily but Mig-29Ks will need CAT gear for the nose wheel which Russians do not have tech for.
     
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  17. p2prada

    p2prada Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    Hmm. The IAF has been waiting for full strength to raise MKI squadrons. So I assumed the same for the Navy.

    Actually no. If you check the Navy air arm thread with the new article, it says that MoD has refused to acknowledge the trainer version of Hawk and the acrobat version of the Hawk as the same aircraft because the acrobat version carries smoke dispensers. So the IAF will have to place a new tender for the acrobat version. Rafale-B/C and Rafale-M have huge difference. More importantly, one is a IAF project and the other is a Navy project.

    MoD also treats the N-LCA program as a separate one. It has its own budget.

    According to the newest DPP, if there is a competition possible, the competition will be happen. The only way you can circumvent this clause is if there is an emergency situation and if the capability does not exist anywhere else, or is not easily available. Take for example Phalcon, C-17, C-130J and P-8I. There are no equivalent anywhere else in the world. Phalcon, C-17 and P-8I have no equivalents even planned. So IAF could go through the FMS route. Same with Greenpine, Barak, even Spike. But Apache had to go through a tender process because there was at least one equivalent. Same with A-330 vs IL-78 or Mi-26 vs Chinook.

    If you want to go through a similar route, then IN can claim that they need a 5th gen fighter with stealth technology. The only competitor is F-35. N-FGFA is years away and there is no other competitor planned. So, the navy can go through the FMS system and buy F-35s. This is the best way to avoid a tender. Can't do the same with Rafale since SH is equivalent to it.

    So you can't piggyback on IAF deals. It was the same with IA and Apaches. IA asked for 11 Apaches, the same version, clubbed with the IAF deal for 22. MoD rejected it and asked IA to hold a new tender.

    These were well before the new DPP rules were laid. Also, T-90 was considered an emergency buy and there was no competitor at the time. We were sanctioned from the west at the time, so T-90 had no competition.

    Yes, but you have already experienced the kind of time this takes. IAF has to sign a deal now so they get Rafales in 2017, a process they started in 2007. Any IN deal will take shorter time. But it still has to go through a tender process due to the above points. So, that means proposals, technical studies, evaluation, results, bids, negotiations and contract. Its only 7 years away, which means a contract needs to be signed in the next 4 years.
     
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  18. Decklander

    Decklander New Member

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    If that be the case, IN might have F-35s on ships.
     
  19. p2prada

    p2prada Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    MoD is God when it comes to defense acquisitions.
     
  20. Decklander

    Decklander New Member

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    To tell you the truth, what you posted here about Hawk deal being called a separate ac, makes me wonder,Is MOD now trying to corrupt the IN also? But we got Mig-29Ks under same route also though I must agree that it was set as a condition for upgrading Gorshkov.
     
  21. p2prada

    p2prada Stars and Ambassadors Stars and Ambassadors

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    IN got 17 Hawks as a dual contract with IAF's 40 Hawks in 2010. But this was a whole new contract and separate from the 66 ordered earlier in 2004.

    IAF may not have followed proper procedures when they tried getting 20 more. In fact, non-adherence to procedures is more liable to get the corruption tag than adherence to it.

    In that respect, combining IAF's Rafale deal with IN's deal is more fishy than if IN releases a new tender with IN specific requirements. That way the system is more transparent. Even vendors will be satisfied.

    I suppose they relax or make the rules more stringent on a case by case basis. Like, only MRCA deal will have 50% offset clause, the others will have 30%. Some cases they do away with offsets.

    Anyway, the govt is doing this to reduce corruption or even completely remove it. It is not a choice either. Everybody has to follow it.

    DPP-2013 is quite revolutionary in terms of support for indigenization.
    Good articles on the same.
    Press Information Bureau English Releases
    Transparency at the heart of new defence procurement policy - The Hindu

    It is mainly the single vendor contracts that have seen a lot of corruption, except for the American FMS procedure. That's why MoD does not like the armed forces negotiating with companies directly without a tender. Even the tender rules are becoming more and more stringent as new DPP rules are laid every year.

    The current rules may have been significantly different back in 2004 when the Gorky, Mig-29 and Akula deals happened.
     
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