Miffed Russia may stop arms sale to India

sob

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We have alrady developed our own WLR. These transporters are not weapon systems that too only stripped down versions & limited in capability and we have paid them heavily for that. No technolgy has been transferred from US forget "Cutting Edge". If we expect cutting edge weapon [ w/o technology] system from US even that comes with strings attached to balls.
While will they give you Technology for which they have spent Billions and many countless years. It is time we grow up. We will only get the systems or half baked TOT like the Russians give us. On paper it is complete TOT but to manufacture those equipment you have to import all the critical parts.

As a seller of weapon systems US is entitled to safeguards so that the same systems are not used against them in the future. Why is it that the Australians, the Japanese, Taiwanese and the Israelis do not have any problems with the American systems.

Either we become strong enough to manufacture our own equipment and systems or we shut up and try to get the best deal that money has to offer us in the open market.
 

Yusuf

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And they threaten us after supplying this

In a joint exercise by Indian Air Force (IAF) and DRDO, a Russian short range surface-to-air missile was test fired from a defence base off the Odisha coast on Wednesday. The OSA-AK missile reportedly failed to hit a tow body suspended from a pilot less target aircraft (PTA) as it fell down before reaching the target.
Sources said air force personnel conducted the test, a part of target simulation exercise in the Integrated Test Range (ITR) at Chandipur on sea during noon.
The missile was fired from the launching complex - III and the PTA was flown from the launching -II of the ITR.
While three rounds of the missile were fired at 11.25 am, 11.45 am and 12.45 pm, the missile was to hit the tow body during the third attempt.
"The missile fell down immediately after take off. Though in initial two attempts the 10-km range missile travelled a certain distance, but during the target simulation exercise it failed to reach the target," said a source.
It was the third attempt in last three days which also proved futile.
While on Monday the pilot less target aircraft fell down before releasing the tow body and flying for a stipulated period due to technical snags, a similar attempt on Tuesday also failed as the missile could not be fired.
A defence official said the aim and objective of the exercise was to gauge the effectiveness of the missile and killing capabilities mid air.
The Russia-manufactured missile has already been procured by India for the IAF fighter air-crafts.
OSA-AK missile has been developed to be used against aircrafts, surface-to-air missiles and air-to-air missiles.
The missile has already been inducted in the army and it was first user trial by the IAF.
Sources added that if all the preparations go according to the plan, another exercise will be conducted within a day or two.
Thereafter, the missile would be fired from the fighter air crafts targeting the PTA.

http://newindianexpress.com/states/...:+bharatrakshak+on+twitter&buffer_share=751bc
 
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Russian arms in many areas are one generation behind other nations eg:

Planes many nations planning 6th generation
air to air missiles-meteor one generation ahead of anything Russia has
Radar many western (us) planes have almost x band capability Russians
still rehashing ZHUK radar.
Russia yet to develop a stealth plane
Russia has no UAV's
 

agentperry

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Russian arms in many areas are one generation behind other nations eg:

Planes many nations planning 6th generation
air to air missiles-meteor one generation ahead of anything Russia has
Radar many western (us) planes have almost x band capability Russians
still rehashing ZHUK radar.
Russia yet to develop a stealth plane
Russia has no UAV's
but india is still not there(properly) so from indian prism everything is above us.

spending in defence sector wont give india that much returns UNTILL AND UNLESS the channel itself is not free from corrupts.
corrupts find their way thru rigorous screening and now we can see them sitting on top of MOD and DRDO doing nothing but wasting much of money.

DRDO is only active because of minority of dedicated nationalist scientist who ignore pessimist and greedy company of most of the drdo workforce and concentrate on their work to make india able to stand on its feet.

its very stupid to think india can so swiftly move to the top when we clearly know that it had missed the era of electronics computers material and even aircraft development of 1920-1970s.
suddenly people want to have everything out of nothing.

its not possible. so till india reach a comfortable spot india should play by tricks to get max out of other nations armory.

*dont compare china with india*
 
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but india is still not there(properly) so from indian prism everything is above us.

spending in defence sector wont give india that much returns UNTILL AND UNLESS the channel itself is not free from corrupts.
corrupts find their way thru rigorous screening and now we can see them sitting on top of MOD and DRDO doing nothing but wasting much of money.

DRDO is only active because of minority of dedicated nationalist scientist who ignore pessimist and greedy company of most of the drdo workforce and concentrate on their work to make india able to stand on its feet.

its very stupid to think india can so swiftly move to the top when we clearly know that it had missed the era of electronics computers material and even aircraft development of 1920-1970s.
suddenly people want to have everything out of nothing.

its not possible. so till india reach a comfortable spot india should play by tricks to get max out of other nations armory.

*dont compare china with india*

India should have invested in a military infrastructure rather than making huge arms deals.
 

dhananjay1

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There is no such thing as fair dealing when it comes to arms business. The countries would buy from whatever source is available and whoever pays higher amount to middlemen. This is especially the case in peace time when there is no clear criteria as to what kind of weapons are needed and what kind of weapons are unnecessary. India has bought Russian weapons because that was the only affordable and accessible source in the past. Also UK managed to dump their outdated weapons because of old military connections. Now if the other countries provide better deals, India would buy from them.
 

p2prada

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Miffed Russia may stop arms sale to India - Hindustan Times

Miffed Russia may stop arms sale to India

Russia has questioned New Delhi's fairness and transparency in awarding multi-billion dollar military contracts, and warned that it may have to reconsider doing business with India.

"We know what gimmicks are used to manipulate deals," Russian ambassador to India Alexander Kadakin told HT in an exclusive interview, adding that his country may not bid for Indian military tenders in the future. "Sometimes, terms of tenders are crafted specifically to get the required results."

The statement comes in the wake of Russia losing ground in the Indian arms market in the past few years, with international rivals winning tenders to supply modern fighter jets, mid-air refuellers, heavy-lift helicopters and attack choppers to the Indian military.

Russia's current defence portfolio in India is worth $20 billion ( Rs. 1,08,000 crore).

But such outcomes have weakened the standing of India's oldest and largest arms supplier.

Israel, the second largest defence supplier to India, has bagged business worth more than $10 billion ( Rs. 54,000 cr) in the past 10-12 years. The US, currently at number three, could overtake Israel if India chooses to place some follow-on orders for platforms already contracted.

Instead of tenders, Russia now wants to sell military equipment to India directly through government-to-government deals, Kadakin said.

India has ordered equipment worth $8 billion ( Rs. 43,200 crore) from the US in the past five years through Washington's foreign military sales programme, a government-to-government method for selling US-built platforms.

"If we emerge number two, it doesn't mean our platform is any worse. But it sends out that impression and causes damage to our reputation," Kadakin said. He added that Russia had stood by India when strictest sanctions were imposed on the country after it conducted nuclear tests.

Kadakin acknowledged that India, being "an emerging superpower", had the right to build defence ties with other countries, but was quick to point out that unlike "some newly-acquired partners", Russia had never hesitated to transfer the most sensitive defence technologies to India.

"Name a country that will lease you a nuclear submarine. Will the Americans, the British or the French lease you such a platform?" Kadakin asked, referring to the Akula-II nuclear-powered attack submarine leased to India by Russia last year. "This is the unique character of our privileged strategic partnership. Your people have to realise this."
Quite funny. Russia lost deals where the competitor provided a better option.

Rafale vs Mig-35, it is obvious which aircraft should win.
Chinook vs Halo, Chinook won.
AH-64 vs Mi-28, AH-64 won.
A-330 vs IL-78, A-330 won.

Amur 1650/950/S1000 vs xyz, let's see what happens here.

C-130, C-17 and P-8, the Russians did not have a modern equivalent. Nobody else did anyway, so MoD agreed for FMS deals in this case.

Barak NG is a JV with Israel, hence the preference for this SAM. AWACS, obviously we will pick the Phalcon.

Carrier, Nuclear sub, FGFA, GLONASS, Brahmos I/II/III, nobody else can offer, hence the deals with Russia.

They are very eager to make a case for Mig-35 sales to IAF. The Russians know that VVS alone cannot pull MiG out of the red. There is no doubt that the Russians are the best bet for ToT. But this is not how you make a sales pitch.
 

agentperry

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Miffed Russia may stop arms sale to India - Hindustan Times



Quite funny. Russia lost deals where the competitor provided a better option.

Rafale vs Mig-35, it is obvious which aircraft should win.
Chinook vs Halo, Chinook won.
AH-64 vs Mi-28, AH-64 won.
A-330 vs IL-78, A-330 won.

Amur 1650/950/S1000 vs xyz, let's see what happens here.

C-130, C-17 and P-8, the Russians did not have a modern equivalent. Nobody else did anyway, so MoD agreed for FMS deals in this case.

Barak NG is a JV with Israel, hence the preference for this SAM. AWACS, obviously we will pick the Phalcon.

Carrier, Nuclear sub, FGFA, GLONASS, Brahmos I/II/III, nobody else can offer, hence the deals with Russia.

They are very eager to make a case for Mig-35 sales to IAF. The Russians know that VVS alone cannot pull MiG out of the red. There is no doubt that the Russians are the best bet for ToT. But this is not how you make a sales pitch.
well definitely others provided better weapons but india's stake in central asia are solely dependent upon russia's mood. it is playing major role under putin and now even when they are diversifying to pakistan india should take some steps which can stop pakistan taking advantage of russia's mood swing.

russians in past have gone way beyond to offer india brahmos and sukhoi in total ToT manner. yes they had exploited india many times but still they should not be kept out of loop. simply because india is not that big which many might think. its solely reliant on external sources for weapons and west is not a reliable partner * but thy have technological edge*
 

sob

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@p2prada,

scores of TOT from the Russians have not helped us, maybe somewhere the TOT has not been followed in both letter and spirit by the russians.

Our failure to have learnt from the imports either through TOT or through revere engineering ensure that we can proudly say that we respect the intellectual property of the OEM and wil not be found violating it in the near future.
 
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Singh

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To echo what @p2prada said Russian military-industrial complex is technologically lacking. Russia should give up their MTCR and other agreements, and start selling us weapons like missiles, Tsar Bomb etc.
 
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p2prada

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scores of TOT from the Russians have not helped us, maybe somewhere the TOT has not been followed in both letter and spirit by the russians.

Our failure to have learnt from the imports either through TOT or through revere engineering ensure that we can proudly say that we respect the intellectual property of the OEM and wil not be found violating it in the near future.
ToT does not really help in our domestic projects, if that is what you are referring to. ToT comes into production phase of the equipment we imported followed by the maintenance of that equipment over time.

Meaning we wouldn't be able to install our own avionics on MKI or install our own armor on T-90 had it not been for ToT. HAL couldn't have unilaterally worked on improving the MKI in order to carry Brahmos.

Contractual obligations won't allow the use of transferred technology on our own systems anyway.

More importantly, ToT helps build experience so that when it comes to developing our own products we won't have total novices working on it. Had it not been for the years of ToT in assembly of aircraft, HAL wouldn't have been confident about setting up our own production line for LCA. We would have needed foreign involvement.

Also, the people working on technologies that were transferred are not necessarily the same people working on our own products. Meaning ADA wouldn't have received even a paper from HAL about the MKI. Nor would GTRE have received anything about the MKIs engine tech from HAL. So none of MKIs design would ever reach LCA. But MKIs experience will allow HAL to build and improve on the FGFA. After FGFA, HAL may be tasked to build our very own heavy combat aircraft as a MKI replacement in the future. That's where the MKIs ToT experience would bear fruit.

OTOH, DRDO would benefit from ToT from Israeli deals that will go into LCA. Like the EL/M 2052 radar that we bought will be used to make our first AESA radar. Subsequent radars will be developed by LRDE due to experience from this ToT. At the same time, when it comes to production, HAL's facility in Hyderabad will benefit from ToT on production of MKI's, Rafale's and FGFA's radars and can apply the experience on LRDE's radar that is being developed for LCA and AMCA. LRDE would not have benefited in anyway with MKI/FGFA radars.

For whatever reasons in the past, MoD and IAF decided to setup an entirely new aerospace industry under DRDO for LCA project while HAL was the company which actually held all the relevant ToTs to make an aircraft, including engines. HAL had designed and manufactured HF-2 Marut. So even with our own previous indigenous programs there was no trickle effect when ADA took up LCA.

Until today we have not allowed ourselves a chance to directly benefit from Russian ToTs. Once HAL starts making LCAs, that's when we will have used ToT.

Okay, this was only in the aerospace sector. In other industries there have been noticeable benefits in someway or the other. Like how we decided to clone Bofors or even Akash SAM, to a certain extent. In Akash we used Russian missile designs along with T-72 chassis and engines for carrying them while the radar involved some Czech tech we had received in the past. We are using K-1 and K-5 derived ERAs in our tanks and so on.
 
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Armand2REP

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@p2prada... you are assuming that Israel will provide enough ToT to construct your own. It never works like that. No producer is going to transfer enough so you can do it yourself, not unless it is 25yr old tech.
 
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@p2prada,

scores of TOT from the Russians have not helped us, maybe somewhere the TOT has not been followed in both letter and spirit by the russians.

Our failure to have learnt from the imports either through TOT or through revere engineering ensure that we can proudly say that we respect the intellectual property of the OEM and wil not be found violating it in the near future.
I can't think of one weapon where Russia has provided FULL TOT the biggest disappointment
was BRAHMOS. On a recent visit India asked for SMERCH TOT Russia did not give it but ok'd
rocket production in India. Russians had maybe 8 different rockets India will make upto
32 different rockets with Russia providing TOT for 5.

http://in.news.yahoo.com/india-russia-multiple-rocket-systems-061001708.html
 
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p2prada

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@p2prada... you are assuming that Israel will provide enough ToT to construct your own. It never works like that. No producer is going to transfer enough so you can do it yourself, not unless it is 25yr old tech.
We are following the same way as Thales did. Build the first radar with Americans components and gradually replace them with French components until the radar has mostly French components. Except that even our production components will be Israeli and we will gradually move away from Israel over a greater period of time. Let's not forget there would be ToT from France for Rafale too and the same company will be involved when it comes to indigenization.

Also, how else do you expect Elta to be involved in the manufacture of at least 100 examples of the 2052 without India paying for it. The 2052 has never seen any export orders. India will give them the break they need.

Also I never meant 100% ToT, at least 60% or greater as in the MRCA deal. But it would also involve supply of critical equipment which can help build up experience for when we decide to make our own stuff.
 
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p2prada

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I can't think of one weapon where Russia has provided FULL TOT the biggest disappointment
was BRAHMOS.
The only thing left was the propulsion system and Russia has already transferred that. I suppose we should already be producing the engine in two places in India today.

BATL set to make BrahMos engines - The Hindu

BrahMos secures $4 billion order to deliver cruise missiles - Economic Times
Currently, the engine and seeker were the Russian components in the cruise missile he said, adding "we are going to make them in India."
 
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The only thing left was the propulsion system and Russia has already transferred that. I suppose we should already be producing the engine in two places in India today.

BATL set to make BrahMos engines - The Hindu

BrahMos secures $4 billion order to deliver cruise missiles - Economic Times
with BRAHMOS 2 coming soon with an Indian scramjet engine this was a self preservation move.
Also SHAURYA is an indigenous missile and faster than BRAHMOS and no MCTR restrictions.
 

p2prada

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with BRAHMOS 2 coming soon with an Indian scramjet engine this was a self preservation move.
Brahmos SCRAMJET engine will be Russian. There may be shared development though. There were news reports that the Russians were already testing a 1500Km LACM Hypersonic missile.

Also SHAURYA is an indigenous missile and faster than BRAHMOS and no MCTR restrictions.
Shaurya is a Agni I replacement. It is considerably different from a sea skimming missile like Brahmos.

It is not based on SCRAMJET either, it is a regular solid rocket motor like on other ballistic missiles. Meaning this missile will follow a more or less predictable trajectory. Brahmos will closely follow the earth's terrain instead and will be completely unpredictable.
 
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This would be a dumb move by Russia, India is their 2nd biggest customer.
Without the Gorshokov deal Russian navy yards would have been closed
and companies like MIG would have to close shop and Sukhoi Robon
would take a major hit.
 

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Brahmos SCRAMJET engine will be Russian. There may be shared development though. There were news reports that the Russians were already testing a 1500Km LACM Hypersonic missile.



Shaurya is a Agni I replacement. It is considerably different from a sea skimming missile like Brahmos.

It is not based on SCRAMJET either, it is a regular solid rocket motor like on other ballistic missiles. Meaning this missile will follow a more or less predictable trajectory. Brahmos will closely follow the earth's terrain instead and will be completely unpredictable.

Shaurya/Sagarika (like DF-21D?) are Quasi Ballastic. Low altitude relatively flatter trajectory and perhaps terminal guidance and maneuverability wil make it difficult to detect and take it out. Although it is by no means a cruise missile.
 

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