MH17 might have been shot down from air — chief Dutch investigator

Discussion in 'Europe and Russia' started by pmaitra, Oct 28, 2014.

  1. pmaitra

    pmaitra Moderator Moderator

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    MH17 might have been shot down from airchief Dutch investigator

    I didn't see this reported by the BBC, and I didn't bother to check NYT.

    Source RT: http://rt.com/news/199891-dutch-investigation-mh17-crash/

    Disclaimer: Google Translator could have introduced artefacts, such as, but not limited to, interpreting "Nein" as "Yes." Interpret in context.

    Source Der Spiegel: MH17: Ermittler Westerbeke über den Absturz in der Ukraine - SPIEGEL ONLINE

    This will be later merged with this: http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/europe-russia/61895-civil-war-ukraine.html
     
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  3. AVERAGE INDIAN

    AVERAGE INDIAN EXORCIST Senior Member

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    from REUTERS
    MH17 prosecutor open to theory another plane shot down airliner: Der Spiegel

    (Reuters) - Dutch prosecutors investigating the crash of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 believe the aircraft might have been shot down from the air but that a ground-to-air missile attack is more likely, a senior prosecutor said in a German media interview.

    The Russian government has always said it has radar imagery proving the fully laden Boeing 777 was shot down by a Ukrainian military aircraft flying in its vicinity, but Western officials have never publicly accepted this scenario.

    In an interview published by German newsmagazine Der Spiegel on Monday, prosecutor Fred Westerbeke said the Dutch would ask Moscow to provide the information that had led them to believe a Ukrainian aircraft was nearby.

    "Based on the information available, a shooting-down by a ground-to-air missile is the most likely scenario, but we aren't closing our eyes to the possibility that it could have happened differently," Der Spiegel quoted him as saying.

    "We are preparing a request to Moscow for information ... including the radar data with which the Russians wanted to prove that a Ukrainian military jet was nearby," he added.

    In the days after the crash, the United States said it had evidence proving that the aircraft was brought down by a ground-to-air missile fired by Russian-backed forces occupying the area in eastern Ukraine where its wreckage now lies.

    An interim report issued by the Dutch Safety Board, which investigates air crashes, listed several passenger jets in flight MH17's vicinity, but no military aircraft that would have been capable of shooting it down.

    The fully loaded Boeing 777 airliner crashed over eastern Ukraine on July 17, killing all 298 people on board, more than two-thirds of whom were Dutch citizens.

    Dutch authorities leading the international investigation of the crash have come under fierce criticism in the Netherlands in recent weeks from relatives of victims and lawmakers who say not enough progress has been made in identifying the perpetrators.

    (Reporting By Thomas Escritt; Editing by Larry King)

    MH17 prosecutor open to theory another plane shot down airliner: Der Spiegel | Reuters
     
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  4. pmaitra

    pmaitra Moderator Moderator

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    Guys, you know what, there is a phrase in Sanskrit called - सत्यमेव जयते, and the truth shall eventually come out. Let us wait for the truth after months of myth peddling.
     
  5. W.G.Ewald

    W.G.Ewald Defence Professionals/ DFI member of 2 Defence Professionals

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    There must be some explanation for the unrelenting apology on DFI for Russian acts up to and including murder of hundreds of innocent men, women, and children, and the looting of their dead bodies for credit cards, cell phones and jewelry. Perhaps this article makes some progress in that direction.

    The Pathetic Lives of Putin’s American Dupes -- NYMag


    @Ray @Singh @Yusuf
     
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  6. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    There is only ONE UNRELENTING CREDO of DFI and that is free speech, thought and word, so long it is not personal and there is no offensive language, thought or word.

    You may not like Russia, but does not mean that one has to kowtow to your views as being the Sole Gospel.

    You must have the moral strength to take the thick with the thin.

    You can always debate your point of view and prove whatever you wish to prove.

    May I request you to be more controlled in your angst that not all are followers of the US point of view.

    In the US, I believe the Communists are banned. That many feel is not democratic since it indicates that one cannot exercise one's free will or express one's political leaning.

    In India, there is far more of a democratic outlook. No political view is banned. The country has democratically nearly wiped out the Communist view by demolishing the Communist Parties in the hustings. Now, that is what is real democracy. Let the people decide which political view is just not acceptable.

    As far as I am concerned, every view I respect and I enjoin in debate to present my view and see how far that works out.
     
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  7. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    @WGEwald,

    I don't think I have to teach you about the fog of war and combat.

    Anything can happen in the heat of battle.

    No side in a conflict is perfect or squeaky clean.

    For instance, this is a report from the UK newspaper GUARDIAN.
    So, anything can happen.

    Be more open minded.
     
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  8. asianobserve

    asianobserve Elite Member Elite Member

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    This is an interesting development. I am all for the inclusion of alleged Russian evidence so that we can have a complete view of the incident and can have the most data available where to base the final findings on.

    But to those who are salivating for the validation Putin's version of events, this statement from Dutch prosecutor Fred Westerbeke should be a caution:

     
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  9. sgarg

    sgarg Senior Member Senior Member

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    Certain western media outlets are demonstrably anti-Russia and carry anti-Russia propaganda.

    I do not read RT as I agree it is a propaganda outlet. But so is BBC and NY Times.

    I do not agree that Russians are illogical or about to launch an invasion of Western Europe. The countries in Europe have plenty of extreme people. I can vouch for a lot of skinheads that I have seen personally in USA.
     
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  10. sgarg

    sgarg Senior Member Senior Member

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    Actually I am very concerned as Obama and Kerry blamed Russia directly for this event immediately after; before any worthwhile investigation has taken place.

    If you add 2+2, you can easily see that lies are more likely to come from Western sources.
     
  11. W.G.Ewald

    W.G.Ewald Defence Professionals/ DFI member of 2 Defence Professionals

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    I would not argue with what you say in your post at all. What I question is a DFI moderator with Indian flag living in United States making the forum a platform for Russian propaganda.
     
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  12. W.G.Ewald

    W.G.Ewald Defence Professionals/ DFI member of 2 Defence Professionals

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    Your points are fine as far as they go, Sir . What I am reacting to (my angst as you refer to it) is a person (Indian) living in the United States under the protection of its laws, despising the USA while unrelentingly cheerleading for Putin. My belief is that such a person with any moral person would either go back to India or emigrate to Russia.
     
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  13. Peter

    Peter Senior Member Senior Member

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    Sir, then what is your problem. One is free to express his/her opinion in DFI.

    If a person lives in USA and badmouths it, then it only shows that the freedom of speech is really enforced there in the US. After all we do understand that if a person in Russia criticizes Putin his head will be cut off. Also the constant criticism of US by Indian immigrants tells us about the tolerance of US officials. Unlike in India where a CM arrests an govt university professor for making cartoons about her, the US officials hardly bat an eyelid. With each criticism the image of USA is not diminishing but only increasing in my eyes. The truth is that a wise man knows how to separate the truth from the lies.
     
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  14. W.G.Ewald

    W.G.Ewald Defence Professionals/ DFI member of 2 Defence Professionals

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    The fact that Russians prevented investigation of the crash site and recovery of bodies for some time after the event detracts from the fog of war argument. Investigation eventually did reveal that wounds to passengers and damage to aircraft was consistent with a SAM. All of that can be revisited on earlier threads here.

    I'll just say that I would be extremely surprised if there is any evidence that Ukraine air force shot down a civilian airliner. Russian pilot has already made his bones for that achievement. Remember KAL 007.
     
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  15. W.G.Ewald

    W.G.Ewald Defence Professionals/ DFI member of 2 Defence Professionals

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    Good points.
     
  16. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    The Jury is out.

    Who know who did what.

    As far as Korean Air Lines Flight 007 is concerned, the aircraft was en route from New York City via Anchorage to Seoul when it strayed into prohibited Soviet airspace and was shot down by Soviet jet
    fighters.

    One of the most implausible things was the reasons put forward for the aircraft's deviation range from a lack of situational awareness by the pilots. That is sure total hogwash.

    All accounts note that the pilots had several sources of information that could have alerted them to their increasing deviation from their planned route.
     
  17. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    You are sure that if a person badmouths Putin, his head will be cut off? Got some inside dope on such beheading?

    Are you aware Article 88 of the UCMJ makes it illegal for a commissioned officer to say bad things about the President.

    There is no such law in the Indian Army.

    Yes, the CM arrested the professor, but it became such a stink that the CM ate crow.

    You think the US is some citizens' Paradise? Just step into the airport and see the harassment that you go through while a European sails through.

    Meet the Rednecks and the Hill billies right at the airport portals and then some thereafter.
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2014
  18. asianobserve

    asianobserve Elite Member Elite Member

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    So a North Korean jet shot down KAL 007 in Soviet airspace? Or perhaps American fighter jets from Okinawa intercepted KAL 007 in Soviet airspace and shot it down there in a brutal false flag ops? Or maybe aliens in Soviet airspace shot down KAL 007 as part of their Earth experiment?
     
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  19. Peter

    Peter Senior Member Senior Member

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    Sir I am yet to see any Indian researcher in Russia telling bad things about Putin or even any Indian in Russia doing research. When I do so I will surely change my views. Till then I will not be convinced.
     
  20. asianobserve

    asianobserve Elite Member Elite Member

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    Chopping off heads is rather crude for Putin, for him it is Polonium-210...
     
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  21. Peter

    Peter Senior Member Senior Member

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    [​IMG]

    I do keep contact with my relatives who are in the US. A lot of engineering students in JU who were my seniors are in US/Uk and Canada. The only thing is that those who go to US never seem to come back to India. I do hear how they feel India is great etc but sadly if someone asks them if they would return they suddenly turn cold and rude. The day they will return I will change my views and consider USA to be a slum area.
     
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