MH17 might have been shot down from air — chief Dutch investigator

pmaitra

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MH17 might have been shot down from airchief Dutch investigator

I didn't see this reported by the BBC, and I didn't bother to check NYT.

The chief Dutch prosecutor investigating the MH17 downing in eastern Ukraine does not exclude the possibility that the aircraft might have been shot down from air, Der Spiegel reported. Intelligence to support this was presented by Moscow in July.

The chief investigator with the Dutch National Prosecutors' Office Fred Westerbeke said in an interview with the German magazine Der Spiegel published on Monday that his team is open to the theory that another plane shot down the Malaysian airliner.
Source RT: http://rt.com/news/199891-dutch-investigation-mh17-crash/

SPIEGEL ONLINE: Bislang gibt es also keine hieb- und stichfesten Beweise?

Westerbeke: Nein. Wenn man allerdings in die Zeitungen schaut, dann sieht es immer so aus, als wäre ganz klar, was mit dem Flugzeug passiert ist und wer daran die Schuld trägt. Wenn wir aber tatsächlich den oder die Täter vor Gericht bringen wollen, brauchen wir Beweise und mehr als ein mitgeschnittenes Telefonat aus dem Internet oder Fotos von der Absturzstelle. Deshalb ziehen wir nicht nur ein Szenario in Betracht, sondern mehrere.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: Welche Szenarien sind das?

Westerbeke: Anfangs haben wir für den Absturz von Flug MH17 vier mögliche Erklärungen in Betracht gezogen: Einen Unfall, einen Terroranschlag, den Abschuss durch eine Boden-Luft-Rakete oder einen Angriff durch ein anderes Flugzeug. Nach dem Erscheinen des Zwischenberichts durch den niederländischen Sicherheitsrat OVV...
[HR][/HR]
SPIEGEL ONLINE: So far, there is no indisputable evidence?

Westerbeke: Yes. If you look in the newspapers, however, it always looks as if quite clear what happened to the aircraft and who is to blame. But if we really want to bring the perpetrators to justice or, we need evidence and more than a recorded phone call from the internet or photos of the crash site. That's why we not only attract a scenario into consideration, but several.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: What are the scenarios?

Westerbeke: first we have drawn four possible explanations considered for the crash of Flight MH17: An accident, a terrorist attack, the shooting down by a surface to air missile or an attack by another aircraft. After the publication of the interim report by the Dutch Security OVV ...
Disclaimer: Google Translator could have introduced artefacts, such as, but not limited to, interpreting "Nein" as "Yes." Interpret in context.

Source Der Spiegel: MH17: Ermittler Westerbeke über den Absturz in der Ukraine - SPIEGEL ONLINE

This will be later merged with this: http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/europe-russia/61895-civil-war-ukraine.html
 
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AVERAGE INDIAN

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from REUTERS
MH17 prosecutor open to theory another plane shot down airliner: Der Spiegel

(Reuters) - Dutch prosecutors investigating the crash of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 believe the aircraft might have been shot down from the air but that a ground-to-air missile attack is more likely, a senior prosecutor said in a German media interview.

The Russian government has always said it has radar imagery proving the fully laden Boeing 777 was shot down by a Ukrainian military aircraft flying in its vicinity, but Western officials have never publicly accepted this scenario.

In an interview published by German newsmagazine Der Spiegel on Monday, prosecutor Fred Westerbeke said the Dutch would ask Moscow to provide the information that had led them to believe a Ukrainian aircraft was nearby.

"Based on the information available, a shooting-down by a ground-to-air missile is the most likely scenario, but we aren't closing our eyes to the possibility that it could have happened differently," Der Spiegel quoted him as saying.

"We are preparing a request to Moscow for information ... including the radar data with which the Russians wanted to prove that a Ukrainian military jet was nearby," he added.

In the days after the crash, the United States said it had evidence proving that the aircraft was brought down by a ground-to-air missile fired by Russian-backed forces occupying the area in eastern Ukraine where its wreckage now lies.

An interim report issued by the Dutch Safety Board, which investigates air crashes, listed several passenger jets in flight MH17's vicinity, but no military aircraft that would have been capable of shooting it down.

The fully loaded Boeing 777 airliner crashed over eastern Ukraine on July 17, killing all 298 people on board, more than two-thirds of whom were Dutch citizens.

Dutch authorities leading the international investigation of the crash have come under fierce criticism in the Netherlands in recent weeks from relatives of victims and lawmakers who say not enough progress has been made in identifying the perpetrators.

(Reporting By Thomas Escritt; Editing by Larry King)

MH17 prosecutor open to theory another plane shot down airliner: Der Spiegel | Reuters
 

pmaitra

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Guys, you know what, there is a phrase in Sanskrit called - सत्यमेव जयते, and the truth shall eventually come out. Let us wait for the truth after months of myth peddling.
 

W.G.Ewald

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There must be some explanation for the unrelenting apology on DFI for Russian acts up to and including murder of hundreds of innocent men, women, and children, and the looting of their dead bodies for credit cards, cell phones and jewelry. Perhaps this article makes some progress in that direction.

Today's Russia dupes are a smaller, more pathetic lot. Above all they are just plain weirder, because they lack a clear ideological motive for their stoogery. Soviet Russia not only commanded a vast propaganda network, but embodied a doctrine with international appeal (and which had originated outside of Russia). Vladimir Putin's Russia follows no model except Russian nationalism...

The primary hub of Russian propaganda in the West is Russia Today, an English-language Kremlin-funded propaganda outlet. Joe Pompeo reported last fall how RT has actually acquired a devoted following in the West, in part through relentless viral YouTube sharing of its reports...

...the central appeal of RT is to leftists, libertarians, conspiracy theorists, and other marginalized groups. The main thematic work of RT is to paint the West in the worst possible light, as decadent, corrupt, and failing – the Cohen method of defense-by-implication. RT's deep coverage of the Occupy protests and harsh coverage of American politics and life in general offers a platform to critics who are denied respectful treatment in the U.S. media. They are bound, above all, by a desire to get on television.
The Pathetic Lives of Putin's American Dupes -- NYMag


@Ray @Singh @Yusuf
 
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Ray

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There must be some explanation for the unrelenting apology on DFI for Russian acts up to and including murder of hundreds of innocent men, women, and children, and the looting of their dead bodies for credit cards, cell phones and jewelry. Perhaps this article makes some progress in that direction.


@Ray @Singh @Yusuf
There is only ONE UNRELENTING CREDO of DFI and that is free speech, thought and word, so long it is not personal and there is no offensive language, thought or word.

You may not like Russia, but does not mean that one has to kowtow to your views as being the Sole Gospel.

You must have the moral strength to take the thick with the thin.

You can always debate your point of view and prove whatever you wish to prove.

May I request you to be more controlled in your angst that not all are followers of the US point of view.

In the US, I believe the Communists are banned. That many feel is not democratic since it indicates that one cannot exercise one's free will or express one's political leaning.

In India, there is far more of a democratic outlook. No political view is banned. The country has democratically nearly wiped out the Communist view by demolishing the Communist Parties in the hustings. Now, that is what is real democracy. Let the people decide which political view is just not acceptable.

As far as I am concerned, every view I respect and I enjoin in debate to present my view and see how far that works out.
 
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Ray

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@WGEwald,

I don't think I have to teach you about the fog of war and combat.

Anything can happen in the heat of battle.

No side in a conflict is perfect or squeaky clean.

For instance, this is a report from the UK newspaper GUARDIAN.
Cluster bombs used in eastern Ukraine, says human rights group
Human Rights Watch evidence suggests use by Ukrainian government forces – and possibly rebels – in Donetsk attacks

Cluster bombs used in eastern Ukraine, says human rights group | World news | The Guardian
So, anything can happen.

Be more open minded.
 
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asianobserve

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This is an interesting development. I am all for the inclusion of alleged Russian evidence so that we can have a complete view of the incident and can have the most data available where to base the final findings on.

But to those who are salivating for the validation Putin's version of events, this statement from Dutch prosecutor Fred Westerbeke should be a caution:

"Based on the information available, a shooting-down by a ground-to-air missile is the most likely scenario, but we aren't closing our eyes to the possibility that it could have happened differently," Der Spiegel quoted him as saying.
 

sgarg

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There must be some explanation for the unrelenting apology on DFI for Russian acts up to and including murder of hundreds of innocent men, women, and children, and the looting of their dead bodies for credit cards, cell phones and jewelry. Perhaps this article makes some progress in that direction.



The Pathetic Lives of Putin's American Dupes -- NYMag


@Ray @Singh @Yusuf
Certain western media outlets are demonstrably anti-Russia and carry anti-Russia propaganda.

I do not read RT as I agree it is a propaganda outlet. But so is BBC and NY Times.

I do not agree that Russians are illogical or about to launch an invasion of Western Europe. The countries in Europe have plenty of extreme people. I can vouch for a lot of skinheads that I have seen personally in USA.
 
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sgarg

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This is an interesting development. I am all for the inclusion of alleged Russian evidence so that we can have a complete view of the incident and can have the most data available where to base the final findings on.

But to those who are salivating for the validation Putin's version of events, this statement from Dutch prosecutor Fred Westerbeke should be a caution:
Actually I am very concerned as Obama and Kerry blamed Russia directly for this event immediately after; before any worthwhile investigation has taken place.

If you add 2+2, you can easily see that lies are more likely to come from Western sources.
 

W.G.Ewald

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Certain western media outlets are demonstrably anti-Russia and carry anti-Russia propaganda.

I do not read RT as I agree it is a propaganda outlet. But so is BBC and NY Times.

I do not agree that Russians are illogical or about to launch an invasion of Western Europe. The countries in Europe have plenty of extreme people. I can vouch for a lot of skinheads that I have seen personally in USA.
I would not argue with what you say in your post at all. What I question is a DFI moderator with Indian flag living in United States making the forum a platform for Russian propaganda.
 

W.G.Ewald

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There is only ONE UNRELENTING CREDO of DFI and that is free speech, thought and word, so long it is not personal and there is no offensive language, thought or word.

You may not like Russia, but does not mean that one has to kowtow to your views as being the Sole Gospel.

You must have the moral strength to take the thick with the thin.

You can always debate your point of view and prove whatever you wish to prove.

May I request you to be more controlled in your angst that not all are followers of the US point of view.

In the US, I believe the Communists are banned. That many feel is not democratic since it indicates that one cannot exercise one's free will or express one's political leaning.

In India, there is far more of a democratic outlook. No political view is banned. The country has democratically nearly wiped out the Communist view by demolishing the Communist Parties in the hustings. Now, that is what is real democracy. Let the people decide which political view is just not acceptable.

As far as I am concerned, every view I respect and I enjoin in debate to present my view and see how far that works out.
Your points are fine as far as they go, Sir . What I am reacting to (my angst as you refer to it) is a person (Indian) living in the United States under the protection of its laws, despising the USA while unrelentingly cheerleading for Putin. My belief is that such a person with any moral person would either go back to India or emigrate to Russia.
 

Peter

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I would not argue with what you say in your post at all. What I question is a DFI moderator with Indian flag living in United States making the forum a platform for Russian propaganda.
Sir, then what is your problem. One is free to express his/her opinion in DFI.

If a person lives in USA and badmouths it, then it only shows that the freedom of speech is really enforced there in the US. After all we do understand that if a person in Russia criticizes Putin his head will be cut off. Also the constant criticism of US by Indian immigrants tells us about the tolerance of US officials. Unlike in India where a CM arrests an govt university professor for making cartoons about her, the US officials hardly bat an eyelid. With each criticism the image of USA is not diminishing but only increasing in my eyes. The truth is that a wise man knows how to separate the truth from the lies.
 

W.G.Ewald

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@WGEwald,

I don't think I have to teach you about the fog of war and combat.

Anything can happen in the heat of battle.

No side in a conflict is perfect or squeaky clean.

For instance, this is a report from the UK newspaper GUARDIAN.


So, anything can happen.

Be more open minded.
The fact that Russians prevented investigation of the crash site and recovery of bodies for some time after the event detracts from the fog of war argument. Investigation eventually did reveal that wounds to passengers and damage to aircraft was consistent with a SAM. All of that can be revisited on earlier threads here.

I'll just say that I would be extremely surprised if there is any evidence that Ukraine air force shot down a civilian airliner. Russian pilot has already made his bones for that achievement. Remember KAL 007.
 
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W.G.Ewald

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Sir, then what is your problem. One is free to express his/her opinion in DFI.

If a person lives in USA and badmouths it, then it only shows that the freedom of speech is really enforced there in the US. After all we do understand that if a person in Russia criticizes Putin his head will be cut off. Also the constant criticism of US by Indian immigrants tells us about the tolerance of US officials. Unlike in India where a CM arrests an govt university professor for making cartoons about her, the US officials hardly bat an eyelid. With each criticism the image of USA is not diminishing but only increasing in my eyes. The truth is that a wise man knows how to separate the truth from the lies.
Good points.
 

Ray

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The fact that Russians prevented investigation of the crash site and recovery of bodies for some time after the event detracts from the fog of war argument. Investigation eventually did reveal that wounds to passengers and damage to aircraft was consistent with a SAM. All of that can be revisited on earlier threads here.

I'll just say that I would be extremely surprised if there is any evidence that Ukraine air force shot down a civilian airliner. Russian pilot has already made his bones for that achievement. Remember KAL 007.
The Jury is out.

Who know who did what.

As far as Korean Air Lines Flight 007 is concerned, the aircraft was en route from New York City via Anchorage to Seoul when it strayed into prohibited Soviet airspace and was shot down by Soviet jet
fighters.

One of the most implausible things was the reasons put forward for the aircraft's deviation range from a lack of situational awareness by the pilots. That is sure total hogwash.

All accounts note that the pilots had several sources of information that could have alerted them to their increasing deviation from their planned route.
 

Ray

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Sir, then what is your problem. One is free to express his/her opinion in DFI.

If a person lives in USA and badmouths it, then it only shows that the freedom of speech is really enforced there in the US. After all we do understand that if a person in Russia criticizes Putin his head will be cut off. Also the constant criticism of US by Indian immigrants tells us about the tolerance of US officials. Unlike in India where a CM arrests an govt university professor for making cartoons about her, the US officials hardly bat an eyelid. With each criticism the image of USA is not diminishing but only increasing in my eyes. The truth is that a wise man knows how to separate the truth from the lies.
You are sure that if a person badmouths Putin, his head will be cut off? Got some inside dope on such beheading?

Are you aware Article 88 of the UCMJ makes it illegal for a commissioned officer to say bad things about the President.

"Any commissioned officer who uses contemptuous words against the President, the Vice President, Congress, the Secretary of Defense, the Secretary of a military department, the Secretary of Transportation, or the Governor or legislature of any State, Territory, Commonwealth, or possession in which he is on duty or present shall be punished as a court-martial may direct."
Article 88—Contempt Toward Officials
There is no such law in the Indian Army.

Yes, the CM arrested the professor, but it became such a stink that the CM ate crow.

You think the US is some citizens' Paradise? Just step into the airport and see the harassment that you go through while a European sails through.

Meet the Rednecks and the Hill billies right at the airport portals and then some thereafter.
 
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asianobserve

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The Jury is out.

Who know who did what.

As far as Korean Air Lines Flight 007 is concerned, the aircraft was en route from New York City via Anchorage to Seoul when it strayed into prohibited Soviet airspace and was shot down by Soviet jet
fighters.

One of the most implausible things was the reasons put forward for the aircraft's deviation range from a lack of situational awareness by the pilots. That is sure total hogwash.

All accounts note that the pilots had several sources of information that could have alerted them to their increasing deviation from their planned route.

So a North Korean jet shot down KAL 007 in Soviet airspace? Or perhaps American fighter jets from Okinawa intercepted KAL 007 in Soviet airspace and shot it down there in a brutal false flag ops? Or maybe aliens in Soviet airspace shot down KAL 007 as part of their Earth experiment?
 

Peter

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You are sure that if a person badmouths Putin, his head will be cut off? Got some inside dope on such beheading?

Are you aware Article 88 of the UCMJ makes it illegal for a commissioned officer to say bad things about the President.



There is no such law in the Indian Army.


So quit hectoring with half baked knowledge.
Sir I am yet to see any Indian researcher in Russia telling bad things about Putin or even any Indian in Russia doing research. When I do so I will surely change my views. Till then I will not be convinced.
 

asianobserve

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Sir I am yet to see any Indian researcher in Russia telling bad things about Putin or even any Indian in Russia doing research. When I do so I will surely change my views. Till then I will not be convinced.
Chopping off heads is rather crude for Putin, for him it is Polonium-210...
 

Peter

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You are sure that if a person badmouths Putin, his head will be cut off? Got some inside dope on such beheading?

Are you aware Article 88 of the UCMJ makes it illegal for a commissioned officer to say bad things about the President.



There is no such law in the Indian Army.

Yes, the CM arrested the professor, but it became such a stink that the CM ate crow.

You think the US is some citizens' Paradise? Just step into the airport and see the harassment that you go through while a European sails through.

Meet the Rednecks and the Hill billies right at the airport portals and then some thereafter.


I do keep contact with my relatives who are in the US. A lot of engineering students in JU who were my seniors are in US/Uk and Canada. The only thing is that those who go to US never seem to come back to India. I do hear how they feel India is great etc but sadly if someone asks them if they would return they suddenly turn cold and rude. The day they will return I will change my views and consider USA to be a slum area.
 

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