Met my Army friend: Time just flew

[Yusuf]

My college mate who is in the army has come on leave and I met him after 4 years. Currently he is on deputation in South Sudan.

Funny part is that I was interested to know what's going with his life and all about his experiences and he wanted to know about me and thought his life was not worth talking about.

When I told him I am admin on a defence forum and my interest in such affairs, his joy knew no bound. He could not believe people like me exist in India he said and by extension like those ok this forum who care about the army. He said I made him happy. Happy coz he got to know one citizen who is bothered about the army. He went on to say that in the US, a US Marine boarded a plane. An announcement was made by the flight attendant about the presence of the marine in their midst and how proud they were to have him on board. All passengers gave a round of applause and a person from the business class asked him to take his seat. He said this is how the US people respect their armed forces something that lacks in India. So he was pleasantly surprised about my interest and the existence of the forum.

He shared his experience of couple of weeks back. He said his car was ambushed by rebel forces and how his friend was hit by a bullet which broke his spine. He was saved, but may not walk again. This soldier who got hit is Indian Army Major. My salute to him for putting his life on the line in a foreign nation. I asked him what will happen now that the Major will not be able to walk. He said he will be given some money and will be discharged and will be left to fend for himself.

He said his deputation has been an eye opener for him. He has come in contact with Japanese, Nepalese and other nations contributing to the UN force. He said even the Nepalese soldier was better equipped than him. He was pissed with the govt "shoving" down DRDO into their throats all the time. He said we wear a bloody bullet proof vest which is 8 kgs! A helmet which gives a headache but not save the head and a rifle (INSAS) that sucks. ( @Kunal Biswas, @Ray) He said the other nations came in Land Cruisers (Nepali), another in a Nissan but the Indian govt sends them good old Mahindra Jeep! He said official UN reimbursement is 30-40lakhs for getting one vehicle but the govt sends a 3 lakh jeep and pockets the rest. Even his allowance is 1/3rd of what the UN pays per soldier on deputation. Rest goes to the govt.

Time just flew. 3 hours just vanished. I hope to meet him again later next week and hopefully for a longer time.

 

[Payeng]

And when I told my friend( defense force personnel) that I am interested in defence stuffs and forums he become more cautious in letting me know inside stories and secrets

 

[Yusuf]

And when I told my friend( defense force personnel) that I am interested in defence stuffs and forums he become more cautious in letting me know inside stories and secrets

Well he didn't tell me any secrets and neither would I ask him.

 

[Virendra]

I'm surprised why the Army leadership hasn't taken these issues with the Govt.
The soldiers deserve better and I don't think the Army can't get even that much for their men.
Understood that this is a democracy and Army has to work with Civilian Govt. but I don't think they're so handicapped and sans leverage.
Something has got to be done here.

 

[W.G.Ewald]

US Congress has ex-military among the representatives. That helps the military.

 

[Yusuf]

US Congress has ex-military among the representatives. That helps the military.

Many Nam veterans I think and in future you will have gulf war and Afghan war vets. In India, army avoids politics like plague and since Nehru's time politicians made sure army was nowhere near the seat of power. Funny that they don't trust an army which has never shown any inclination to cease power at the worst of times when perhaps it would have even been welcomed by the Indian people I may say.

 

[W.G.Ewald]

Many Nam veterans I think and in future you will have gulf war and Afghan war vets. In India, army avoids politics like plague and since Nehru's time politicians made sure army was nowhere near the seat of power. Funny that they don't trust an army which has never shown any inclination to cease power at the worst of times when perhaps it would have even been welcomed by the Indian people I may say.

A major war would change the perception.

Most here probably won't like the Brit connection, but there is universal truth in this, by Rudyard Kipling. (BG Ray has posted in here before, I believe.)

Tommy

I went into a public-'ouse to get a pint o' beer,
The publican 'e up an' sez, "We serve no red-coats here."
The girls be'ind the bar they laughed an' giggled fit to die,
I outs into the street again an' to myself sez I:
O it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, go away";
But it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play,
The band begins to play, my boys, the band begins to play,
O it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play.

I went into a theatre as sober as could be,
They gave a drunk civilian room, but 'adn't none for me;
They sent me to the gallery or round the music-'alls,
But when it comes to fightin', Lord! they'll shove me in the stalls!
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, wait outside";
But it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide,
The troopship's on the tide, my boys, the troopship's on the tide,
O it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide.

Yes, makin' mock o' uniforms that guard you while you sleep
Is cheaper than them uniforms, an' they're starvation cheap;
An' hustlin' drunken soldiers when they're goin' large a bit
Is five times better business than paradin' in full kit.
Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, 'ow's yer soul?"
But it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll,
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll.

We aren't no thin red 'eroes, nor we aren't no blackguards too,
But single men in barricks, most remarkable like you;
An' if sometimes our conduck isn't all your fancy paints,
Why, single men in barricks don't grow into plaster saints;
While it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, fall be'ind",
But it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there's trouble in the wind,
There's trouble in the wind, my boys, there's trouble in the wind,
O it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there's trouble in the wind.

You talk o' better food for us, an' schools, an' fires, an' all:
We'll wait for extry rations if you treat us rational.
Don't mess about the cook-room slops, but prove it to our face
The Widow's Uniform is not the soldier-man's disgrace.
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the brute!"
But it's "Saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot;
An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please;
An' Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool -- you bet that Tommy sees!

 

[shom]

My college mate who is in the army has come on leave and I met him after 4 years. Currently he is on deputation in South Sudan.

Funny part is that I was interested to know what's going with his life and all about his experiences and he wanted to know about me and thought his life was not worth talking about.

When I told him I am admin on a defence forum and my interest in such affairs, his joy knew no bound. He could not believe people like me exist in India he said and by extension like those ok this forum who care about the army. He said I made him happy. Happy coz he got to know one citizen who is bothered about the army. He went on to say that in the US, a US Marine boarded a plane. An announcement was made by the flight attendant about the presence of the marine in their midst and how proud they were to have him on board. All passengers gave a round of applause and a person from the business class asked him to take his seat. He said this is how the US people respect their armed forces something that lacks in India. So he was pleasantly surprised about my interest and the existence of the forum.

He shared his experience of couple of weeks back. He said his car was ambushed by rebel forces and how his friend was hit by a bullet which broke his spine. He was saved, but may not walk again. This soldier who got hit is Indian Army Major. My salute to him for putting his life on the line in a foreign nation. I asked him what will happen now that the Major will not be able to walk. He said he will be given some money and will be discharged and will be left to fend for himself.

He said his deputation has been an eye opener for him. He has come in contact with Japanese, Nepalese and other nations contributing to the UN force. He said even the Nepalese soldier was better equipped than him. He was pissed with the govt "shoving" down DRDO into their throats all the time. He said we wear a bloody bullet proof vest which is 8 kgs! A helmet which gives a headache but not save the head and a rifle (INSAS) that sucks. ( @Kunal Biswas, @Ray) He said the other nations came in Land Cruisers (Nepali), another in a Nissan but the Indian govt sends them good old Mahindra Jeep! He said official UN reimbursement is 30-40lakhs for getting one vehicle but the govt sends a 3 lakh jeep and pockets the rest. Even his allowance is 1/3rd of what the UN pays per soldier on deputation. Rest goes to the govt.

Time just flew. 3 hours just vanished. I hope to meet him again later next week and hopefully for a longer time.

Sir,,, with due respect to your friend and you ,,, after reading the post I remember a patriotic song in Bengali ,,, which goes on like this ,,,
Mayer deoa mota kapor mathay tule ne re bhai,, din dukhini maa je toder er beshi aar sadhyo naiiii,,,
I will try to translate it real fast,,
My son, humbly accept the coarse cloth being offered , alas your poor motherland can no more afford,,,,,,( Translation courtesy Poulomi Das)
Mayer Deoya Mota Kapor.mpg - YouTube

 

[Yusuf]

A major war would change the perception.

Most here probably won't like the Brit connection, but there is universal truth in this, by Rudyard Kipling. (BG Ray has posted in here before, I believe.)

Tommy

48,62,65,71,99. Cannot get worse than that for young and new nation to fight 5 wars in 50 years.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

@Yusuf, Did your friend served in RR and does he belong to Infantry ?, There are plenty of people mostly those who are not exposed to other rifles in force have such opinion when they only see other rifles by there looks and what country they belong too..

 

[Ray]

@Yusuf

I am sure your army friend would be a youngster - the MacDonald Fast Food generation. No offence meant. They are all for glitz and glamour.

And if he is not a youngster, I would be really surprised.

It is true that the BPJ and helmet are real heavy. Indeed, something should be done about it as also for many other equipment that we have.

However, while efficiency is the key to professionalism, one has to see what is in the national kitty.

Nepalese can come in Land Cruisers and Indian in Mahindra jeeps. But what is the bottomline? Movement. Is a Landcruiser any more efficient given the task of movement? It is merely more snazzy and maybe there is better ride comfort. In fact, yesterday I was seeing a Auto programme on TV. It showed the VW SUV where it can take a 31 degree incline, 18 degree tilt and can raise or lower its suspension depending on the road condition or stream crossing requirement. Ideally, this would be great vehicle for the military. But what about the fuel and maintenance that is also to be within the UN Mission budget as contracted with the UN?

What is wrong with the INSAS that it cannot perform the same task as any other rifle? I still maintain that it is not a bad weapon. Of course, the furniture (that is the outer structure) is not glitzy, but is that material to the one who has been shot dead who tried to kill you instead? There are reports that the US soldier preferred to use captured rough, but reliable AK 47s to their glitzy rifles, which were great but could not withstand the rough handling as the AKs.

It is incorrect to state that the Indian officers on deputation gets less money because the Govt pockets the rest. A UN mission is budgeted and contracted by the UN. In 1993 an officer got $2200 (tax free) in addition to his Indian pay (again tax free since he was working in a UN mission). The Govt got money for the equipment that went with the mission. There was an In and Out Survey, where the UN made good financially the equipment lost in action or made unserviceable. I am not too sure if there was some calculation for wear and tear.

The US President has two dedicated Aircraft for his travel (not to forget helicopters). The Indian President or PM has to make good with an aircraft that is refitted for the journey and fancifully called Air India One, just because the US President aircraft is called Air Force One.

And India was to buy a fancy helicopter for the PM and VIPs (that even the US felt was expensive) and see the mess we have landed ourselves in.

We must cut our coat as per the cloth.

Or, Mayer deoa mota kapor mathay tule ne re bhai,, din dukhini maa je toder er beshi aar sadhyo naiiii,,,

The essence of military life and outlook has been very succinctly explained by Rumsfeld (who many do not like and yet I find his sayings loaded):

"As you know, you go to war with the army you have, not the army you might want or wish to have at a later time."

 

[Yusuf]

@Yusuf, Did your friend served in RR and does he belong to Infantry ?, There are plenty of people mostly those who are not exposed to other rifles in force have such opinion when they only see other rifles by there looks and what country they belong too..

He is in Mahar. 7 years of CI. Spent two winters in Drass!!

 

[Yusuf]

@Yusuf

I am sure your army friend would be a youngster - the MacDonald Fast Food generation. No offence meant. They are all for glitz and glamour.

It is true that the BPJ and helmet are real heavy. Indeed, something should be done about it as also for many other equipment that we have.

However, while efficiency is the key to professionalism, one has to see what is in the national kitty.

Nepalese can come in Land Cruisers and Indian in Mahindra jeeps. But what is the bottomline? Movement. Is a Landcruiser any more efficient given the task of movement? It is merely more snazzy and maybe there is better ride comfort. In fact, yesterday I was seeing a Auto programme on TV. It showed the VW SUV where it can take a 31 degree incline, 18 degree tilt and can raise or lower its suspension depending on the road condition or stream crossing requirement. Ideally, this would be great vehicle for the military. But what about the fuel and maintenance that is also to be within the UN Mission budget as contracted with the UN?

What is wrong with the INSAS that it cannot perform the same task as any other rifle? I still maintain that it is not a bad weapon. Of course, the furniture (that is the outer structure) is not glitzy, but is that material to the one who has been shot dead who tried to kill you instead?

It is incorrect to state that the Indian officers on deputation gets less money because the Govt pockets the rest. A UN mission is budgeted and contracted by the UN. In 1993 an officer got $2200 (tax free) in addition to his Indian pay (again tax free since he was working in a UN mission). The Govt got money for the equipment that went with the mission. There was an In and Out Survey, where the UN made good financially the equipment lost in action or made unserviceable. I am not too sure if there was some calculation for wear and tear.

Yes he is a youngster. My age. He is a Major. No he is pretty modest guy and does not crib. He was just showing a comparison and contrast. He says its the training, courage and professionalism of the Indian Army that wins it in the end with whatever they have.

He does not mind moving in a Mahindra but definitely minds that heavy BPJ and Helmet. He didn't say much about what he felt was wrong with the INSAS, I will ask him next time. He said the Nepalis curse the INSAS that were supplied to them. But yeah he says its better than te AKs the tangos use. AK just to deadly in short range spray fire by tangos. His friend got hit as the bullet passed through the B pillar of the Jeep, through the seats and into his spine.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Your friend did not have exposure to other Rifles in details exception of AK..

If you ask him in details about :

1. Maintenance time..
2. Accuracy..
3. Reliability..

Compare to other 5.56mm class Rifle such as TAR / M4 , His opinion will be different..

He is in Mahar. 7 years of CI. Spent two winters in Drass!!

 

[Yusuf]

Your friend did not have exposure to other Rifles in details exception of AK..

If you ask him in details about :

1. Maintenance time..
2. Accuracy..
3. Reliability..

Compare to other 5.56mm class Rifle such as TAR / M4 , His opinion will be different..

I will ask him next time. In a couple of days or so.
I don't think accuracy is a problem with the INSAS.

 

[Ray]

He is in Mahar. 7 years of CI. Spent two winters in Drass!!

Well then send me his name and I will see why the 07 years gave him this outlook!

Dras would not qualify to be a real CI area. One is guarded and there is no doubt about that, but it is the Shia belt and these chaps are not to happy with the Sunnis of the Valley.

I spent two tenures in Kargil. Both in combat. Once in the area encompassing Drass to Kaksar (Dalunang) and once during the last war with Pakistan.

Both the times we were clad with ECC Clothing and after the clamour of how ill clad we are, they are in Siachen clothing. Has to made the people who were in ECC any less efficient in fighting a war? The outcomes do not suggest that both the times I was there in combat!

I totally agree that the BPJs and helmet are most disgusting and people do not like to wear them and that is why the casualty rates looks higher in CI.


In fact, your post got me ringing my friends and subordinates long distance just to check up the facts so that I did not get it wrong.

 

[Bhadra]

My college mate who is in the army has come on leave and I met him after 4 years. Currently he is on deputation in South Sudan.

Funny part is that I was interested to know what's going with his life and all about his experiences and he wanted to know about me and thought his life was not worth talking about.

When I told him I am admin on a defence forum and my interest in such affairs, his joy knew no bound. He could not believe people like me exist in India he said and by extension like those ok this forum who care about the army. He said I made him happy. Happy coz he got to know one citizen who is bothered about the army. He went on to say that in the US, a US Marine boarded a plane. An announcement was made by the flight attendant about the presence of the marine in their midst and how proud they were to have him on board. All passengers gave a round of applause and a person from the business class asked him to take his seat. He said this is how the US people respect their armed forces something that lacks in India. So he was pleasantly surprised about my interest and the existence of the forum.

I value your and your friends sentiments. Defence Forum you say ?? I disagree with you. DFI as have senn for past two years is either a defnse chit chat thread or being used as a mediam of DRDO propaganda. Majority of them can not withstand any or slightest criticism and then gang up on parochial basis. Other memebers (many) are on the forum to project a perticular type of equipment or rather they are seller. There is a real lack of academician or experienced members on the forum.

In comparision PDF has lots of experiemced memebers and veterans.

IDF perhaps also reflects on general lack of internet facilities in acive units and with their officers who most of the time do not have time for such activities. I have seen DRDO labs and offices where the office starts with internets and closes with internet.

He shared his experience of couple of weeks back. He said his car was ambushed by rebel forces and how his friend was hit by a bullet which broke his spine. He was saved, but may not walk again. This soldier who got hit is Indian Army Major. My salute to him for putting his life on the line in a foreign nation. I asked him what will happen now that the Major will not be able to walk. He said he will be given some money and will be discharged and will be left to fend for himself.

Army and the govt does try to look after their disabled soldier. With this kind of disabilities where disabilities go beyong 80 per cent on is discharged from service by the medical board with 100 per cent of the last pay drawn plus disability pension. Well being disabled or killed is part of the game and responsibilities.

He said his deputation has been an eye opener for him.

yes, It is eye opener in many ways. Their are Armies such as those of African states and Asian states who are in much more pathetic conditions. Their are countries like those of Latin America such as Uruguay who keep Army only to send them to UN miltary missions. Then there are Holland and Scandinavians who send their part time civilians as soldiers as a means of providing employment to their civilians. Then there professional Armies such as India, Pakistan and BD who send their good regulars.

Allmost all UN contingents are being run bey Indians, Pakistanies or BD contigents, rest all INMO are just number fillers.

He has come in contact with Japanese, Nepalese and other nations contributing to the UN force. He said even the Nepalese soldier was better equipped than him.

A country send a contingent or observers and they are equipped as per the norms of their countries. UN demands are generic such as one mechanised company. UN does not lay down the equipment. There are countries which buy equipment solely for the purpose of sending it for UN mission and at home they have no equipment for their own Army. Nepal is an example. Others send equipment as per existing equipment. Their are countries like Newzealand whoes soldiers come mendatarily with nuclear protection kits !!

He was pissed with the govt "shoving" down DRDO into their throats all the time. He said we wear a bloody bullet proof vest which is 8 kgs! A helmet which gives a headache but not save the head and a rifle (INSAS) that sucks. ( @Kunal Biswas, @Ray)

Who is the IAF, IN and IA is not pissed off with D O D O ... Ha Ha Ha... I am glad I find a company..

He said the other nations came in Land Cruisers (Nepali), another in a Nissan but the Indian govt sends them good old Mahindra Jeep! He said official UN reimbursement is 30-40lakhs for getting one vehicle but the govt sends a 3 lakh jeep and pockets the rest.

Mission is accomplished with Manhindras and Gypsies may be except for deserts of Sudan.

UN does reimburse the usage cost of equpment and not the cost of equipment and they are no such fools that they will pay Rs 30 laks for an equipment of Rs 3 laks.


[/quote]Even his allowance is 1/3rd of what the UN pays per soldier on deputation. Rest goes to the govt. [/quote]

Your friend is grossely illinformed.

UN pay $ 1100/- pm for his services but GOI pays the officer $2100/- pm through an internal arrangements. Other third world countries such as Pakistan pays what UN pays $1100 pm. African countries pay half this amount to their officers. Many other countries such as USA or UK pay their officers about $ 3500 as per their national standards.

Time just flew. 3 hours just vanished. I hope to meet him again later next week and hopefully for a longer time.

when you meet him again do tell him that as an officer he is supposed to be better informed..

yes, Ray sir's comments were unwarranted and unkind..

 

[Bhadra]

And when I told my friend( defense force personnel) that I am interested in defence stuffs and forums he become more cautious in letting me know inside stories and secrets

That should be part of their training and upbringing...

 

[Yusuf]

@Kunal Biswas Ok generic info from him based on his usage. He has used AK and INSAS although both are different guns with different rounds.

1) Maintenance : AK better than INSAS
2) Accuracy: pretty good
3) Reliability major issues. The magazine he says drops off after firing a few rounds when the gun gets hot from repeated firing. The magazine is made of cheap plastic that breaks quite often.
Jamming is another problem he faces. The gun would just fire after firing a few rounds.

This is only user experience. He says I am not a technical guy only user and can't say more. I am sure he won't say more even if he knew more.
@Ray Sir, the Mahindra jeep can do a good job to move from one place to another. But in jungles and desserts and difficult terrain, better vehicle is required.
@Bhadra, he may be less informed or may be he does not want to give all the info. I don't want to push him more into saying anything more.

 

[Bhadra]

@Bhadra[/user], he may be less informed or may be he does not want to give all the info. I don't want to push him more into saying anything more.

No, my point is not what your friend tells you..

My concenrn is how you put your friends views for the information of the forum which will be taken better coming from Yususf rather than heresay..

Before a publisher places something, he needs to check up on many things...

That is why my known rejoinder.. as the fellow told you things factually wrong..