May i come in?

[Raja.pakistani]

Be happy. Your introduction thread is probably the most long-running intro thread in the forum's history. Be proud.

Anyway, this thread would have made you realize that Indians don't like Pakistanis to equate Pakistan and Islam. Indians don't subscribe to the 2-nation theory the same way that you guys do - we do not accept that "Hindus and Muslims cannot live together".

First of all why Indians dont like to equate Pakistani with their religion? How it affect Indians? Hindu and muslim can surely live together even with all their differences but only if a country is really a secular country or if peoples/rulers/leaders/law makers are really secular who don't discriminates others because of their religion/castes. If peoples are religious then its hard for them to be neutral/objectives in all different religious/political affairs as well as conflicts. same laws/rules for everyone..same opportunity of work/education for everyone..no quota system for any religion/castes..no favouritism etc. Are not Muslims and Hindu living together in foreign countries? Why hindu/muslim dont have any problem there? Think about it

another thing which you should consider is that religion is primary identity of muslims. I dont think if other will agree with me or not but i consider my religion before my country. My first loyalty is religion, my second loyalty is my country, my third loyalty is ethnicity and my last loyalty will be my caste while for Hindu it might be opposite as for them land/nationality is above their religion but Islam dont agree with Hinduism on this matter and that was the motive behind creation of Pakistan as Muslim thoughts that they will not be getting equal political rights as well as religious freedom without demand of Pakistan and to be honest desi peoples during that times were not that secular .. Imagine Ghandi and Jinnah were boht very much scholars but political identity of jinnah was muslim league which was very much dependent on islam and Ghandi may known as secular but he represented the political force which primarily symbolized ancient civilisation of Hindu and he was demi God of contemporary hindu history

 

[Raja.pakistani]

which part of Pakistan are you from ?

And thank you for taking the time to clear the misconception us Indians have of Pakistan or Pakistanis. And please ignore users, using the ignore button, or report inflammatory posts.

ps: Singh is King has a feel good factor but that's about it 8)

you welcome dude ...I am from rawalpindi pakistan.. and i dont think any use of report button but thanks

 

[Raja.pakistani]

Innocent until proven guilty but when it comes to pakis in my eyes it is guilty until proven innocent.

and by paki i dont mean muslim...it is old trick of pakis to use muslim shield to deflect. just pointing out that so that our resident paki doesn't think im going on a tirade against islam.

which one more suit you ?

Prejudice (or foredeeming) is making a judgment or assumption about someone or something before having enough knowledge to be able to do so with guaranteed accuracy, or "judging a book by its cover". The word prejudice is most often used to refer to preconceived judgments toward people or a person because of race, social class, ethnicity, age, disability, obesity, religion, sexual orientation, or other personal characteristics. It also means beliefs without knowledge of the facts[SUP][1][/SUP] and may include "any unreasonable attitude that is unusually resistant to rational influence

Prejudice - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A bigot is a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices, especially one exhibiting intolerance, andanimosity toward those of differing beliefs. The predominant usage in modern English refers to persons hostile to those of differing sex, race, ethnicity, religion or spirituality, nationality, language, inter-regional prejudice, gender and sexual orientation, age, homelessness, various medical disorders particularly behavioral disorders and addictive disorders. Forms of bigotry may have a related ideology or world views.

Bigotry - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BigotryReply to rest of posters later.

 

[The Messiah]

The word prejudice is most often used to refer to preconceived judgments toward people or a person because of race, social class, ethnicity, age, disability, obesity, religion, sexual orientation, or other personal characteristics.

I am neither because i only dislike you because of your nationality. You could be the same person with same race, social class, ethnicity, age, disability, obesity, religion, sexual orientation, or other personal characteristics from another country and i wont have a problem with you.

How many times will you try to use religion to defend yourself rather than your nationality ?

 

[LurkerBaba]

i consider my religion before my country. My first loyalty is religion, my second loyalty is my country, my third loyalty is ethnicity and my last loyalty will be my caste

Can we discuss this particular detail in another thread ? (you can open one). I have heard a lot of conflicting views about this.

 

[Ray]

First of all why Indians dont like to equate Pakistani with their religion? How it affect Indians? Hindu and muslim can surely live together even with all their differences but only if a country is really a secular country or if peoples/rulers/leaders/law makers are really secular who don't discriminates others because of their religion/castes. If peoples are religious then its hard for them to be neutral/objectives in all different religious/political affairs as well as conflicts. same laws/rules for everyone..same opportunity of work/education for everyone..no quota system for any religion/castes..no favouritism etc. Are not Muslims and Hindu living together in foreign countries? Why hindu/muslim dont have any problem there? Think about it

another thing which you should consider is that religion is primary identity of muslims. I dont think if other will agree with me or not but i consider my religion before my country. My first loyalty is religion, my second loyalty is my country, my third loyalty is ethnicity and my last loyalty will be my caste while for Hindu it might be opposite as for them land/nationality is above their religion but Islam dont agree with Hinduism on this matter and that was the motive behind creation of Pakistan as Muslim thoughts that they will not be getting equal political rights as well as religious freedom without demand of Pakistan and to be honest desi peoples during that times were not that secular .. Imagine Ghandi and Jinnah were boht very much scholars but political identity of jinnah was muslim league which was very much dependent on islam and Ghandi may known as secular but he represented the political force which primarily symbolized ancient civilisation of Hindu and he was demi God of contemporary hindu history

Good point.

Why the discrimination if India is secular!

May I ask you a question?

If you claim Islam is your choice before your choice of your country. then why kill a Shia or a Shia kill a Muslim when you believe in the same Allah and the same Prophet and the same religious book?

If people with same religion affinity can kill each other and discriminate, then to expect people of different belief not to have any discrimination is a bit thick and incongruous.

True Hindus and Muslim are living in other countries peaceably, but then those countries will not be so tolerant as India if things go out of hand. Therefore, the options are limited. Further, while you will hear of Muslims going on a rampage in such countries, Hindus as a group do not have this negative attribute. The reason is simple. They place country above religion and keep religion out of their workplace and environment beyond their homes, In other words, they learn to adjust and not dominate and crib and whine.

I am not cheerleader for Gandhi but then, with all due regards, I don't think JInnah was bothered too much about Muslim rights. He was hardly a Muslim given that he married a Parsi and knocked of the delights of alcohol and pork (not to hold it against him, it was the fashion those days to be in the right social crowd, irrespective of religion). And his address to the Constituent assembly of 11 Aug was very laudable and secular!

Thus Indians don't like equating existence solely based on religion because possibly they believe that all must exist and exist on an equal footing as humanly as is possible to create such an atmosphere.

 

[SPIEZ]

Welcome to DFI raja. Have a good stay here !

Hindu's and Muslims peacefully co-exist in most places. I myself being a Hindu have many Muslim friends.

Why don't you start a thread to clear the misconceptions we have on each other as in India and Pakistan, and have clearer views on each other ?

 

[Bangalorean]

First of all why Indians dont like to equate Pakistani with their religion? How it affect Indians? Hindu and muslim can surely live together even with all their differences but only if a country is really a secular country or if peoples/rulers/leaders/law makers are really secular who don't discriminates others because of their religion/castes. If peoples are religious then its hard for them to be neutral/objectives in all different religious/political affairs as well as conflicts. same laws/rules for everyone..same opportunity of work/education for everyone..no quota system for any religion/castes..no favouritism etc. Are not Muslims and Hindu living together in foreign countries? Why hindu/muslim dont have any problem there? Think about it

another thing which you should consider is that religion is primary identity of muslims. I dont think if other will agree with me or not but i consider my religion before my country. My first loyalty is religion, my second loyalty is my country, my third loyalty is ethnicity and my last loyalty will be my caste while for Hindu it might be opposite as for them land/nationality is above their religion but Islam dont agree with Hinduism on this matter and that was the motive behind creation of Pakistan as Muslim thoughts that they will not be getting equal political rights as well as religious freedom without demand of Pakistan and to be honest desi peoples during that times were not that secular .. Imagine Ghandi and Jinnah were boht very much scholars but political identity of jinnah was muslim league which was very much dependent on islam and Ghandi may known as secular but he represented the political force which primarily symbolized ancient civilisation of Hindu and he was demi God of contemporary hindu history

Through most of India's history, we have had more Muslims than the entire Pakistani population. Indian Muslims find such statements (equating Pakistan and Islam) particularly abhorrent.

According to Indians, this whole concept of "Hindus cannot live with Muslims" is totally messed up. If that logic was really correct, then how were Hindu and Christian minorities allowed in Pakistan? Jinnah used to say that Hindus and Muslims cannot live together, and are two separate nations, while at the same time he also used to say that Hindus can live peacefully in Pakistan if they want to. You see the contradiction here?

And you claim that for Muslims, "religion is above nation". If that had really been true for all Muslims, there would have been no problems in the Muslim world. You do know that the Arabs are extremely racist towards people from the Indian subcontinent? You do know that they look down upon Pakistanis? And the Arabs look down upon black African Muslims too! Such as Somalians. Severe and intense racism! And the Arab states such as Saudi cannot stand Iran. There is sectarian violence and strife internally among Muslims - more than with any other community in the world.

You will not find any Indian Muslim supporting Pakistan's stance on Kashmir. If your hypothesis were indeed true, this would not have been the case!!

Indians and Pakistanis simply think differently on this 2-nation theory thing.

 

[Bangalorean]

Someone lock this thread - discussions like the above can happen in another thread. Say, "2-nation theory - Pakistani and Indian perspectives"

 

[Raja.pakistani]

I am neither because i only dislike you because of your nationality. You could be the same person with same race, social class, ethnicity, age, disability, obesity, religion, sexual orientation, or other personal characteristics from another country and i wont have a problem with you.

How many times will you try to use religion to defend yourself rather than your nationality ?

I am really surprised that you are " Respected member " here when you cannot respect those who belong to different nationality. You said you dislike me because of my nationality so according to you land/nationality is the only criteria for you to judge the character of any person. A person hold Pakistani nationality will be bad always no matter how good he is as a person. If same person hold the Indian nationality he will become good automatically

I don't need any thing to defend myself. The only reason you are differentiating my religion from my nationality is because you know there are many Indian Muslims on this forum otherwise if you are intolerant to others becuase of their nationality then you can be intolerant to them because of their religion

 

[Raja.pakistani]

Can we discuss this particular detail in another thread ? (you can open one). I have heard a lot of conflicting views about this.

Sure there are many different views there. I was sharing my personal views and personal understanding of Islam. My personal understanding of Islam is that its alien to nationalism. Nationalist has loyalty and attachment with his homeland whereas in Islam it should be with God/belief/religion. I can oppose my country if it go against teaching of my religion. Islam even ask me to leave my country for sake of my belief. I will say again that Islam is not against patriotism and there is nothing really wrong with loving your country. We all love our birth place and its natural feeling which we all have for our motherland but Islam is surely against blind nationalism/patriotism. When there is a conflict between nation and religion then Islam ask Muslims to take side of religion and i think that was the thought of those Muslims who believed in two nation theory because they wanted union based on their belief rather than their land.

I also think this is not right place to have such discussion

 

[Raja.pakistani]

If you claim Islam is your choice before your choice of your country. then why kill a Shia or a Shia kill a Muslim when you believe in the same Allah and the same Prophet and the same religious book?

No i said if there is a conflict between my country vs my religion then i will pick the side of religion. Why shia vs sunni killing? Its because of religious differences. Unfortunately there will be always some peoples who will misinterpret their religious scriptures to kill someone because he dont agree with their personal interpretations of religion as i said before that terrorist dont kill only non muslims. they kill anyone who oppose their version or interpretation including Muslims

If people with same religion affinity can kill each other and discriminate, then to expect people of different belief not to have any discrimination is a bit thick and incongruous.

No, what i was saying that if peoples believe in secular principles then it should not happen. If you are comparing extremist religious peoples with peoples who believe in secular principles and you are telling me that boht should bring same result then you are doing a wrong thing. Its like comparing secular state of UK with islamic state of Iran/saudia Arabia. Can we compare boht? no , becuase they are based on different principles. If an Indian think that nationality is stronger than religion then he should never kill a fellow indian muslim in revenge of fellow hindu indians and same is true for muslim if he is more loyal to his nationality as compare to his belief but problem is India is secular country with non secular peoples/leaders/police etc

I am not cheerleader for Gandhi but then, with all due regards, I don't think JInnah was bothered too much about Muslim rights. He was hardly a Muslim given that he married a Parsi and knocked of the delights of alcohol and pork (not to hold it against him, it was the fashion those days to be in the right social crowd, irrespective of religion). And his address to the Constituent assembly of 11 Aug was very laudable and secular!

If Jinnah was not muslim because he married with parsi then what about Shah rukh khan , Amir khan and all those indian muslims who married with hindu? Are they Muslims according to you? I always thought why some muslim actors( like dalip kumar,meena kumari, madu bahla etc) in past felt the need to adopt hindu name to get in film industry? Again do you think Congress did not suppressed the rights of Muslims? Why Muslims of sub continent felt the need to have Muslim league? If everything was ok then why there were demand of separate land ? Do you also think Hindu culture has/had no influence on religion of muslims(Islam)? This idea of two-nation had long history and it was not just formed in one day or night out of nowhere

Thus Indians don't like equating existence solely based on religion because possibly they believe that all must exist and exist on an equal footing as humanly as is possible to create such an atmosphere.

I don't mind it and many hindu/christian are also living a peaceful life in Pakistan.I dont think we should bother to discuss what happened before us..no use of it..we should move on and concentrate on present issue instead of discussing what happened hundred years ago

 

[Raja.pakistani]

According to Indians, this whole concept of "Hindus cannot live with Muslims" is totally messed up. If that logic was really correct, then how were Hindu and Christian minorities allowed in Pakistan? Jinnah used to say that Hindus and Muslims cannot live together, and are two separate nations, while at the same time he also used to say that Hindus can live peacefully in Pakistan if they want to. You see the contradiction here?

Yes you have valid questions here but again you should ask those muslims of sub continent why they felt the need of separate land if according to you they were given all political/religious rights ? Jinnah was only the representative of demand of Muslims of sub continent. Muslim country should give equal rights to non muslim minorities so i guess he wanted a country with majority muslim where non Muslims also have freedom to practice their religion. Pakistan claim of Islamic is very much same to India claim of secular

And you claim that for Muslims, "religion is above nation". If that had really been true for all Muslims, there would have been no problems in the Muslim world. You do know that the Arabs are extremely racist towards people from the Indian subcontinent? You do know that they look down upon Pakistanis? And the Arabs look down upon black African Muslims too! Such as Somalians. Severe and intense racism! And the Arab states such as Saudi cannot stand Iran. There is sectarian violence and strife internally among Muslims - more than with any other community in the world.

I will not deny it but i cannot speak on behalf of others. I only practice my belief according to my understanding and what others do is none of my business. There will be always some peoples who will consider themselves superior than others either because of religion, caste, nationality, race, colour, status, power etc. How you will justify the caste/quota system in secular India? I can say that there is/was also a lot of division/discrimination because of castes in indian society but again all countries have different issues and different kind of discrimination. we are all guilty of some crimes

You will not find any Indian Muslim supporting Pakistan's stance on Kashmir. If your hypothesis were indeed true, this would not have been the case!!
Indians and Pakistanis simply think differently on this 2-nation theory thing.

I was sharing my personal opinion of Islam in posts above. I dont expect everyone to agree with me. If indian muslims take side of israel even if Isreal commit crimes against their fellow Palestinians muslims then its their choice. Again do you think that a country can do wrong things to gain its national interests?

 

[SADAKHUSH]

Moderator please close this thread. It was introduction and got sidetracked.

 

[SPIEZ]

No i said if there is a conflict between my country vs my religion then i will pick the side of religion. Why shia vs sunni killing? Its because of religious differences. Unfortunately there will be always some peoples who will misinterpret their religious scriptures to kill someone because he dont agree with their personal interpretations of religion

You nailed it there.

No, what i was saying that if peoples believe in secular principles then it should not happen. If you are comparing extremist religious peoples with peoples who believe in secular principles and you are telling me that boht should bring same result then you are doing a wrong thing. Its like comparing secular state of UK with islamic state of Iran/saudia Arabia. Can we compare boht? no , becuase they are based on different principles. If an Indian think that nationality is stronger than religion then he should never kill a fellow indian muslim in revenge of fellow hindu indians and same is true for muslim if he is more loyal to his nationality as compare to his belief but problem is India is secular country with non secular peoples/leaders/police etc

Unfortunately revenge and anger have no logic or thinking. Tell me when the same happens elsewhere do you briing in the logic of religion ?

If Jinnah was not muslim because he married with parsi then what about Shah rukh khan , Amir khan and all those indian muslims who married with hindu? Are they Muslims according to you? I always thought why some muslim actors( like dalip kumar,meena kumari, madu bahla etc) in past felt the need to adopt hindu name to get in film industry? Again do you think Congress did not suppressed the rights of Muslims? Why Muslims of sub continent felt the need to have Muslim league? If everything was ok then why there were demand of separate land ? Do you also think Hindu culture has/had no influence on religion of muslims(Islam)? This idea of two-nation had long history and it was not just formed in one day or night out of nowhere

Than why call it a Muslim state? We are secular, and have no problems when SRK marries anyone, but according to your logic isn't it wrong for Jinnah to do so ?

I don't mind it and many hindu/christian are also living a peaceful life in Pakistan.I dont think we should bother to discuss what happened before us..no use of it..we should move on and concentrate on present issue instead of discussing what happened hundred years ago

Again you have nailed it right, my friend!

 

[LETHALFORCE]

No further discussions in the intro thread beyond this point

 

[Raja.pakistani]

Spiez you misunderstood some points in my posts. I was tempted to clarify but then moderator said no further discussion but my friend if peoples of sub continent were really secular/tolerant then we would have never seen bloodshed committed by hindu/muslims/Sikhs towards each others during or after partition on basis of religion. any way we will talk this in other threads

 

[SADAKHUSH]

No further discussions in the intro thread beyond this point

Thank you very much for your much awaited action. I would like to suggest that in future any one introducing him/herself should not be allowed to carry on with any discussion without exception. Thank you once again.