Maulvi in Indian Army ‘censured’ for saying Jai Hind.

Discussion in 'Indian Army' started by Poseidon, Sep 18, 2014.

  1. Poseidon

    Poseidon Regular Member

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    Maulvi in Army ‘censured’ for saying Jai Hind.

    Raghav Ohri,ET Bureau | Sep 18, 2014, 12.09PM IST


    Leading lawyer Rajeev Anand, who took premature retirement as assistant commandant of Border Security Force, was critical of the notice issued to Ali

    CHANDIGARH: Made famous by Netaji Subhash Chandra Bose, the salutation "Jai Hind" was coined by Major Abid Hasan Zafrani of the Azad Hind Fauj. Two decades after Zafrani's death, a Muslim priest of the Indian Army has approached the President of India, the National Commission of Minorities and Uttar Pradesh chief minister Akhilesh Yadav alleging that his superior officers have censured him for using the slogan because it "sends a message of religious hatred and extremism".

    Subedar Ishrat Ali alleges his commanding officer has served him a notice warning him to "rise above narrowmindedness", and instead salute by using "Ram, Ram" and "Jai Mata Di" — the official battalion slogans — or face "disciplinary action". Ali told ET from Bikaner that he has protested and written to his superior officers.

    He has informed them that it is impossible for him to use the said salutes as they are Hindu religious chants and he is an Islamic priest. On his behalf, his wife Shehnaz Bano has written to the President of India and the National Commission for Minorities, Delhi, with a copy to the Uttar Pradesh chief minister complaining of "mental torture and harassment" and demanding justice.

    Ali's commanding officer Colonel Chitra Sen refused to comment on the issue and said Army HQ had all the relevant information. "Army is absolutely secular. We respect salutation of Jai Hind and all battle cries," said Major General Shokin Chauhan, additional director general, public information, without getting into the details of Subedar Ali's complaints.

    Leading lawyer Rajeev Anand, who took premature retirement as assistant commandant of Border Security Force, was critical of the notice issued to Ali. "This is totally wrong. Salutations are in the name of the country and not in the name of a religion. They all are soldiers of India. Passing such directives are totally untenable."

    The notice issued to Ali asks him to change his salutation. "The task of Army's religious teacher is to enthuse the spirit of patriotism, zeal and unity in the jawans, while the slogan of Jai Hind (Long Live India) sends a message of religious hatred and extremism. If you do not rise above narrowmindedness and do not salute by shouting 'Ram Ram' and 'Jai Mata di', as per the rules of the battalion disciplinary action will be taken against you," it says. "You are a religious teacher and your job is to enthuse patriotism, zeal and spirit of unity in the jawans. Your action (the utterance of Jai Hind) does not only send a message of religious hatred and extremism but also reflects upon your lack of knowledge; and that will not be tolerated."

    In his 22 years of service as a maulvi, Ali claims he was never asked not to use "Jai Hind" until July when he was verbally "warned" to shun the slogan and resort to shouting "Ram Ram and Jai Mata Ki" or else face a court martial.

    "I have served the Army for 22 years, saluted many chiefs including General VK Singh and others who never objected to it. Jai Hind is a slogan, which marks patriotism. How can I be faulted for being a patriot?" he asks. Ali claims his "harassment" began in May this year after his return from Sudan, after a seven-month special assignment.

    According to him, he is being targeted for his earlier complaint against a junior maulvi being sent to Sudan. "I had served at Rajputana Rifles centre, Delhi, for 10 years but was transferred to Rajputana Rifles (3 Raj Rif Bikaner) because I had complained against the move to send a junior of mine to Sudan. After my complaint I was sent to Sudan but immediately after my return I was posted to Bikaner, Rajasthan," Ali told ET over the phone from there.

    Ali added that he petitioned the Delhi high court against the transfer citing the ill health of his wife who is a heart patient and is undergoing treatment. In his petition, Ali had also mentioned that since he is left with two years of service and his two daughters and a son are studying in Delhi, he be allowed to serve in the capital.

    Although his initial case was rejected on the grounds of delay, his review petition is hanging fire in the Delhi high court.

    Ali says that on August 17, he refused to sign his annual confidential report (ACR), which according to him was tarnished "deliberately".

    A second notice was issued to him over this issue.

    http://m.timesofindia.com/india/Maulvi-in-Army-censured-for-saying-Jai-Hind/articleshow/42790700.cms
     
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  3. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    The maulavi is an idiot.

    The Indian Army is secular.

    No matter what is your religious affiliation, you have to adhere to the religious affiliation of the troops.

    If one is in a Sikh regiment and do not say "Sat Sri Akal" that would be absolutely incorrect and against the ethos of the Army where one adheres to the sentiments of the troop and not personal sentiments.

    I was in the Mahar Regiment, (Mahars are of Ambedkar's ilk) and so would I be right in saying that I will not eat with them at the barakhana or command a unit or sub unit of the regiment? I am damned if I would do it so. Unlike Rahul Gandhi's photo op with the SC and eating with them, I did it throughout my military career, not for photo op but because I am a part of them and they are a part of me and proud to be so.

    This idiot Bikram Singh and his politically motivated secular directive to say Jai Hind is responsible for ruining the Indian Army.

    Bikram's justification was that the Air Force says so.

    Air Force success depends on the skills of the single pilot.

    The Army's success is how his men responds to his directives as a team.

    If the troops are not in sync, then you and the team are a goner.

    Therefore, everything depends on the troops and you have to identify with them, like it or not, and on that depends your, your unit, your Regiment's and your Nation's honour.

    Apart from cosmetic tweaking, what has JJ and Bikram done for the Army but letting it down at every stage and creating dissensions and grouses?

    Time to cut out all this political crap for personal mobility which this idiot Bikram Singh wanted to do, even after crawling and kowtowing and sucking up his way to the highest rank of the Indian Army.

    Politics and political populism is the ruin of the Indian Armed Forces.

    And it was started very openly by that ass of wrestler and nothing more of a qualification - Mulayam Singh.
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2014
  4. Agnostic_Indian

    Agnostic_Indian Regular Member

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    sir with respect I strongly disagree,
    I believe maulvi is right , indian army should change the rules.. I don't think anybody should be forced to say any god or godman's name if he is not a believer or believer of that particular god..

    jai hind or bharath matha ki jai is enough to boost the moral of troops and keep it's unity..
     
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  5. Srinivas_K

    Srinivas_K Senior Member Senior Member

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    Your point is right But Mr.Ray is talking about/with his vast experience. I think he is talking about the organization of Army and how it works.
     
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  6. Free Karma

    Free Karma Senior Member Senior Member

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    Okay what about those people who thought Vande Mataram is anti Islam (and it was excluded from Independence day celebrations at that school)
    Muslim Mirror � Why we can’t sing Vande Mataram So okay no more Vande maataram too?


    Edit: The article gives an incorrect picture I think, basically what this is about is: Maulvi refuses to say regiments motto as he claims it clashes with his religion.
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2014
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  7. Agnostic_Indian

    Agnostic_Indian Regular Member

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    those who oppse vandemaataram are religious fundamentalists.
     
  8. Poseidon

    Poseidon Regular Member

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    I completely agree with you.
     
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  9. Agnostic_Indian

    Agnostic_Indian Regular Member

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    I understand that , but still I believe traditions should not be an excuse to resist a change for betterment or correction.. may be it was a requirement back then but today I don't think we need to continue with that.
     
  10. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    With due regards, I will mention that one has to be in the Army and fight a war or even COIN to understand that lives and honour of the team depends on the synergy leading to efficiency and thereby less numbers dead in war that they generate as a team.

    The Army is where it is a life and death issue and not merely politically correct managerial leadership.

    If one does not conform to the sentiments of the majority of the team, then there can be no synergy, success and it might even lead to bad morale with people of the team dying.

    Have you noticed how Ajit Singh whipped up the Jat sentiment over his not wanting to vacate his magnificent Lutyen's Bungalow in total disregard to the concept of law and goodness of Hind?

    Noticed how Bhindrenwale got quite a large number of Sikhs, who otherwise are very proud Indian and loyal soldiers, to do what they did to Hind?

    Jehova's Witness stand up for the National Anthem but do not sing it since they feel their loyalty is to God alone. What about their slighting Hind?

    What about Mamata Bannerjee or Jayalalithaa slighting Hind for their community interest?

    Sadly, the reality is that community and religious sentiments rule higher than the concept of Hind.

    Unfortunate, but nonetheless, a reality.

    It pains me to say so, but then one should be pragmatic when reality stares one in the face.
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2014
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  11. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    The English word "tradition" comes from the Latin traditio, the noun from the verb traderere or tradere (to transmit, to hand over, to give for safekeeping)

    Customs and Traditions are a very essential part to build up a sense of belonging, camaraderie and pride.

    These customs and traditions provide an anchor to the past. They are constant reminders of where we have been, and how we have arrived here. They are the very elements of the military profession that distinguish us and convey the richness of our Army’s tapestry, embroidered with the history and experience of our units and formations. This connection with the past will lend our soldiers a sense of meaning and purpose, even as they journey into the future.

    Our ceremonies, rituals and symbolism are not always understood or appreciated by our soldiers and commanders today, least by the citizenry. Even as we do away with excessive regimentation and move towards a more progressive style of leadership, we must comprehend why we do some of the things that we do, before we decide to keep or change them.
     
  12. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    If we are not to resist change but lets see some exampleds based on the current 'secular' idea of India, which though laudable has its problems when taken to the excess.

    For instance, though very secular otherwise, would it be right for non Muslim officers to shun going to the Mosque as is being currently done in the Muslim majority units (as in some Grenadier units and the JAK LI) and the high caste officers refuse to eat food prepared by Muslim soldier cooks?

    I know of one Colonel of the JAK LI (a Col of the Regt is actually a General), who did not take my offer of lunch when he visited us, because he was fasting as it was Ramzan. And he was a Hindu!

    Likewise, would it be right for non Buddhist officers in a Buddhist majority unit refusing to attend the Buddhist prayers every Sunday?

    And if that type of secularism is allowed for officers of non majority troop denomination, how will it affect the soldier? Would be be delighted that his officer shuns his identity and religion - tradition that has been there in the Army for ages? And how would his dedication be for that officer when the officer leads him into battle?

    If Hind is the sole cement of Indian nationhood, then how come people cheer Pakistan in a cricket match?

    The sauce for the goose should also be sauce for the gander.

    The soldier is no God's own sole creation and less human than others, or are they?
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2014
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  13. Agnostic_Indian

    Agnostic_Indian Regular Member

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    I understand that when the control of British Indian army was handed over to independent india we have continued with this class based regiment system..that was a practical thing to do because a sudden change , especially at that troubled time would have been disastrous..so we have made a compromise..such a less than ideal structure obviously should have been set as temporary setup which will gradually give way to a ideal setup..like we introduced " cast based reservations ".. but look at us , even today after 67 years we are stuck with that..

    army had refused to form any new such cast/sect/ religion based units sighting that it's a secular force.. so army is not ready to make any new compromises , which is a good thing.. but refusal/ non progress to absndon old system and refusal to form new units for other groups both together has resulted even a greater bias..today army not only force a " non pure regiment class soldier to shout the names of Gods which he doesn't belive in but other communities are also denied the same privllage of having a regiment for thier community..reason is " you are late to the party "..so this has involentrly become a permenent bias. In the first case only soldiers from those communities are subjected to discrimination but in second case whole community(s) is subjected to discrimination..

    I undestand( as much as a civilian can) that traditions,pride, camaraderie are the driving force which keeps motivation and unity..but I believe traditions can be changed if needed, source and base of feeling pride and camaraderie can be broadened..same with the rituals and cerimonies...it's for motivation, unity and to create all those feelings and environment which creates a hypnotic kind of effect on soldiers..There for ritusls are there for a purpose..not the other way around ..so if the purpose can be achieved by replacing ritual/ practice based on a narrow sectraian based ritual with a broad nationalistic pride base ritual and practice then it must be implemented. besides, majority sentiments if it's not a rational one , is it wise for a commander to take a bad strategic/ tactical decision caving into majority sentiments ? for example - his jawans are all pumped up and taking the enemy head on while right decusion would be to attack from sides or behind , or wanting to go offensive when right decision might be a defensive posture, or any kind of such situations which you are well aware off ?

    army had 67 years at hand to prepare the ground and slowly educate and prepare the minds of soldiers for a change over to new regiment system and new rules..Isn't there rigorous trining before a soldier is absorbed into the force..i am sure trainers not only give them physical training but they also concentrate on almost every aspect of a jawan.. so i believe it's not that hard to change the old mindsets of jawans at their behining period..sure there will be some resistance but I believe army can handle it with out much trouble.
    The old " single class " system while it id good for maintaining unity of 80 % of majority class soldiers , it's evident that it causes discomfort and alination among the rest of the soldiers.
    what if two different regiments have to work together ? won't the inter regiment unity maintained by feeding the cast/race based pride of soldiers will become a problem ?

    So what are we suppose to do ? Should we continue to feed the narrow minded secterian mindset or should we gradually train them to work with mixed class of soldiers in a regiment where every soldier feels at home..
    @Ray @Free Karma @sob @Srinivas_K @Poseidon @p2prada @Singh
     
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  14. Srinivas_K

    Srinivas_K Senior Member Senior Member

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    There should be one slogan for Indian Army

    Constitution is the ultimate, Britishers formed the regiments based on martial traditions and ethnicities. That tradition is still being continued including slogans.

    IA is secular force and soldiers have Temple, Mosque, Gurudwara , Church etc... for praying.

     
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  15. Singh

    Singh Phat Cat Administrator

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    I believe a large number of Muslims also serve in Rajputana Rifles, even their battle cry is different for both Hindus and Muslims. @Ray sir or someone more knowledgeable can chime in.
     
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  16. Kunal Biswas

    Kunal Biswas Member of the Year 2011 Moderator

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    Such things are something very common in Army, No body cares religious difference in Army except in civil ..

    People go everywhere regardless their religion in Army, Such nonsense only single out individual character whose intentions are nothing lesser than attention seeking ..

    In Our World we obey and work accordingly to our respected Regimental culture which is part of our Army culture ..
     
  17. y_raj

    y_raj New Member

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    I believe it is okay for all regiments to have a common battle cry/official greetings/motto, which has historical origins. Even if they are related to one particular group, such expressions have a totally different meaning in the armed forces and they often connect the men to the origins of their units.One cannot be allowed to disregard the prevailing unit customs due to their personal religious beliefs because the expressions have no connection (in spirit) to their religious origins. They only serve to generate a feeling of shared history and bond the men together. For example, it would certainly sound strange if the British Paratroopers refused to shout 'Wahoo Mohammed'. Same applies to Indian forces as well
     
  18. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    They have Temple, Mosque, Church etc, depending on the troops class composition.

    One slogan defeats the individuality and individuality and not ;assembly produced' is what build self pride and desire to excel.

    For instance, education at the College level is same. But then why are some colleges preferred to the others? Background of academic excellence that becomes a tradition.
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2014
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  19. Agnostic_Indian

    Agnostic_Indian Regular Member

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    your argument is self contradicting.
    if nobody really care about religion
    in the army then why keep this old practices which forces a minority to chant a majorities religious slogans , why even use the religious slogans of majority soldiers to motivate them who according to you doesn't care about religion ? so why not use something like "bharath maata ki jai " which i naturally expect every soldier should care about ?
     
  20. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    In 1857 the POONA HORSE in the battle of Kooshab charged headlong into the square formed by the Persian 1st Khusgai Regiment of Fars whom they practically annihilated.

    In this charge a standard of great antiquity was captured from the Persian Regiment. The captured standard was surmounted by a silver hand, the palm of which is inscribed YAD ULLAL FAUK IDAHEEM which roughly translates THE HAND OF GOD IS ABOVE ALL THINGS. Two VC’s were won in this action and a number of other awards. This hand was later to become the central device of the badge of Poona Horse.

    So, would it be right for non Muslim officers to refuse to put this badge on their beret and thus not have it as a Sartaj?



    @Singh,

    I am not aware that Muslim soldiers have a different war cry in RajRif.

    I am however sure that in Sikh Regt, the war cry is Bole So Nihal, Sat Sri Akal. Every one has to say it, even though this is actually a part of the Sikh liturgy and is shouted at the end of the ardas.

    The unique part of the Army is that while religion does have a part to play, yet it is in its unique way genuinely approached in a secular mindset, and not with the politically interpreted secularism and nationalism.

    Just like the mindset and belief of lot of Hindus in the Dargah of Hazrat Khwaja Moinuddin Chishty at Ajmer,
     
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  21. Ray

    Ray The Chairman Defence Professionals Moderator

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    As soon as you politicise the Army, you are asking for trouble.

    Note he has written to various politicians and organisation instead of going through the route of Redress of Grievances. Imagine, if everyone starts writing for genuine and imagined slights! Great for the discipline, what? Just the stuff to win wars, right?

    Note how devious, sly and cunning is the circular of 2011 is - 'Jai Hind' was to be used as a customary salutation by the personnel while greeting each other but allowed the regimental salutations to continue as per the traditions of respective units.

    In Punjabi it is call Ei bhi wah wah, hor tan bhi wah wah.

    Please the political bosses and yet not upset the Army.
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2014

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