Massive U.S. Fleet Nears Disputed Islands

asianobserve

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If you look from where I am looking, China is a challenge for everyone but India. They present us with the biggest opportunity by using their arrogance to our benefit. Just the way the crisis in East Asia was an opportunity, believe me you, China with it's arrogance will itself open up the space for us across the globe. Their arrogance works very well to our advantage, I would love them to do more of what they are doing and only keep getting aggressive by the day, dependencies on India would have only increased more, something that remains a necessity for India's real rise.
Stop dreaming about China not being a threat to India. China is doing an India containment in South Asia by proxy and more than the US, it is China that is the strategic rival of India in South Asia. This will not lessen and will only grow as China gains more power. Unless of course India is willing to settle its territorial differences with China (that is give it all away to China) and reverse all previous positions on Tibet and the Himalayas.....
 

amoy

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Agree that Asians needs to get their collective acts together to contain China, actually we're doing it now. But we need the leadership of a strong outside power. Note that these smaller Asian countries also have their own entanglements with each other like SoKor against Japan or some ASEAN countries for some sections of the Spratlys. Without a superpower to moderate these grievances (in some extent suppress them) I'm afraid China will have a free reign dividing and conquering Asia.
Getting collective against China? Another pipe dream if I may say.

Apart from S.Korea -Japan row, Taiwan is also up against JP over Diaoyu Taiwan, Japan fire water cannon in disputed island controversy | Fox News Historically and administratively Diaoyu is part of "Taiwan Province".

S.Korea - China China-South Korea pact 'first on agenda' | Economy | chinadaily.com.cn, and North Korea Why The Chinese Are Developing Rason In North Korea | ROK Drop

Russia, yes, is also a vital Asian power. Russia's PM dismisses Japan's anger at his Kuril trip "¹ Japan Today: Japan News and Discussion

Even within ASEAN, when can members gang up on China? Cambodia? Thailand? Myanmar? Laos? Or Indonesia? Then Indonesia, China set to boost military relations | The Jakarta Post Are they all China's trojans in ASEAN?

Is "divide and conquer" trick working? The answer lies in the fact that often enough these small Asian countries have more convergence of interest with China than with the US. Consequently the expectation that the Asian orchestra would follow one single conductor is doomed to be frustrated. :namaste:
 
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thakur_ritesh

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Stop dreaming about China not being a threat to India. China is doing an India containment in South Asia by proxy and more than the US, it is China that is the strategic rival of India in South Asia. This will not lessen and will only grow as China gains more power. Unless of course India is willing to settle its territorial differences with China (that is give it all away to China) and reverse all previous positions on Tibet and the Himalayas.....
Oh no my friend, you aren't getting to where I intend to take you to so as to get a grip of the Indian perspective.

China is doing all that it is, but is that in any way stopping India from creating counters, and effective ones, to it? India has in the past many years diversified it's diplomatic time and energy in the immediate neighbourhood from Pakistan to other countries in the region. There is a significant economic integration being done, their economic dependencies are being created by letting them in with a bigger share of the economy, loans-grants-aid money are being extended, natural resources are being shared, with a good number of them there are significant military-military relations being built up, their bureaucracy is being closely worked with, and much more. China's over smartness in the region has only woken up the Indian polity, and the work to be done remains in some very safe hands with the officers from the IFS.

China is being balanced in the immediate neighbourhood using various means, first, as explained above, which is the direct approach. The second remains the indirect approach, where the growing relations with the US and the west, at large, figure in, and it has been well documented, each time India works out something significant with the west, and the US in particular, that makes China soften up further towards India. Of course, that is just one facet to Indo-West relations, since there is so much more to gain from the west than just use those relations to counter China from time to time. The third, there is a tit-for-tat response. What the Chinese are doing in and around us, the same to a certain extent is being extended to their neighbourhood. The message is clear for the Chinese, beyond a certain point you can't go further, you go, India will respond but then the biggest drawback is a complete lack of a defence industrial base, but then that can be countered by creating JVs with various countries in East-Asia. If you look at it a lot more closely, the very hype around the "string of pearls" works in our favour.

India will never put the US or anyone else in a position from where they exploit the position in their favour at our cost, so, India will never ever take any lead in any strategic outreach that puts us in a direct confrontation with China, definitely not till the time China puts itself in a direct confrontation with us using a third party. Other than that, India will rather handle any other challenge directly and on it's own, and that is why a certain group of strategic thinkers believe it is time India gets prepared for a two-front war if ever such a situation erupts so that India needn't look at others for help. In other words and metaphorically speaking, India will never be a Pakistan or a UK or a Japan to the west.

Take a look at what I mean when I say the aggressive attitude of China works in our favour. More than India, who are keen that India joins the SCO even though there remains opposition from China? It's the central Asians, and the Russians because they fear SCO might get hijacked by China in times to come. As I said in the previous post, look at India in East-Asia, where was it in the last decade, and today? Would the smooth run in and largely unnoticed entry be possible if the PRC wasn't all arrogant, and thinking to take on the whole world together? You have to read what amazing stuff India has done in Africa from economics to militarily, absolute change in strategy from the soft power that it once used to present itself as. Latin America is no different, significant gains made, though being a distant continent we took our time. Here is how it is, everywhere wherever China has stepped in, the GoI has got curious, and because the Chinese have a brash way, the opportunity gets created for India to step in as the other viable option. Guess what, had there not been an aggressive China, the west would have covered all such Indian moves internationally, looked at all such moves with suspicion and the media there would have been used to present us as the next emerging challenge.

It is how India will position itself, not as a direct threat or a challenge to China, but use every such opportunity so that we build in significant gains for ourselves. I will take you to the times of the right-wing, nationalist party, the BJP, when it ruled through the coalition, the NDA, from '99-'04. Check how were India's relations with the US, and China and that too right after the nuke tests back then. You will get a hint of what Indian top brass thinks and remains capable of. Extending the point of capability further, the world believes Indo-Israel relations are all about military, I would say, the military and strategic relations make no more than 10-15% of what this relationship has been built on, which means the relationship is far more deep rooted than most perceive it to be and still we are have worked out a good relationship with others in the region who could be extremely hostile to Israel.

As I said, not many have really analyzed India's foreign policy/relations. It's quite a case study from what it was back in 90's to what it is today.
 

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^^ You've been reading Shashi Tharoor's book "Pax Indica". :cool:

I purchased it a couple of months back, had to stop reading in the middle. Your post reminded me that I had to finish that book. :D
 

thakur_ritesh

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^^ You've been reading Shashi Tharoor's book "Pax Indica". :cool:

I purchased it a couple of months back, had to stop reading in the middle. Your post reminded me that I had to finish that book. :D
I have absolutely not. Any commonality? You make it sound as if it's a rip off from his work.
 

Bangalorean

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I have absolutely not. Any commonality? You make it sound as if it's a rip off from his work.
The book is basically about India's foreign policy. It deals with relations with African nations, East Asian nations, Latin American nations, etc. Of course, there are dedicated chapters to relations with Pakistan, China, US, Russia, and a few other countries. He describes in detail, what India has been doing in terms of foreign policy in all these places.
 

thakur_ritesh

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The book is basically about India's foreign policy. It deals with relations with African nations, East Asian nations, Latin American nations, etc. Of course, there are dedicated chapters to relations with Pakistan, China, US, Russia, and a few other countries. He describes in detail, what India has been doing in terms of foreign policy in all these places.
Well I guess there is one thing across the party lines, mainly between the Congress and the BJP, and the top diplomats, they more or less agree on how India's foreign relations need to move ahead, so one gets a decent grip by reading any of these chaps on what India has done, and will do.
 

SajeevJino

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I am wondering about US decision over the island issue...Is they think they can beat the Chinese Navy in East chinese sea area...

Oh my god Big daddy ready to show the muscle to Jym Body
 

Tolaha

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Agree that Asians needs to get their collective acts together to contain China, actually we're doing it now. But we need the leadership of a strong outside power. Note that these smaller Asian countries also have their own entanglements with each other like SoKor against Japan or some ASEAN countries for some sections of the Spratlys. Without a superpower to moderate these grievances (in some extent suppress them) I'm afraid China will have a free reign dividing and conquering Asia.
I do not agree with the statement made in bold. The disunity, the lack of recognition of an obvious advisory is so apparent amongst the ASEAN countries who have the most to loose (far more than India) from a resurgent China. No external forces can do anything much when ASEAN countries (barring Vietnam and Singapore) lack a strategic vision and are solely focused on their individual benefits. If India sticks out its neck for the ASEAN against China, it will be hung out like a juicy target IMO!
 

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What is so wrong with China having a free reign to conquer East Asia and bring it under their influence? Historically, it was always their sphere of influence and ASEAN countries were their tributaries. The U.S., when they were emerging as a great power in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, did the exact same thing in their own neighborhood in the Caribbean and Latin America; in fact they were much more blatant and aggressive about it then the Chinese are today, but perhaps times have changed since them. Eventually, India too should carve out a sphere of influence for itself in South Asia and the Indian Ocean region.

Confrontation with China is futile and pointless in the long run. Instead, both India and China should eventually recognize each others' spheres of influence. In the meantime, we can use the scepter of an Indo-U.S. "Alliance" to scare China, but such an alliance is not an end in itself.
 

average american

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What is so wrong with China having a free reign to conquer East Asia and bring it under their influence? Historically, it was always their sphere of influence and ASEAN countries were their tributaries. The U.S., when they were emerging as a great power in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, did the exact same thing in their own neighborhood in the Caribbean and Latin America; in fact they were much more blatant and aggressive about it then the Chinese are today, but perhaps times have changed since them. Eventually, India too should carve out a sphere of influence for itself in South Asia and the Indian Ocean region.

Confrontation with China is futile and pointless in the long run. Instead, both India and China should eventually recognize each others' spheres of influence. In the meantime, we can use the scepter of an Indo-U.S. "Alliance" to scare China, but such an alliance is not an end in itself.
Totalitarian government like China seeks to control not only all economic and political matters but the attitudes, values, and beliefs of its population, erasing the distinction between state and society. They see any one that is differant as a threat and seek to eliminate that threat including neighboring countries. China is seeking to expand its territory by tens of thousands of sq miles in the south China Sea, have even refered to the Phillipines as a Chinese Islands on National TV. China is building a big military, a big hammer and when you have a big hammer everything starts looking like a nail, India might become the next nail.
 
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W.G.Ewald

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What is so wrong with China having a free reign to conquer East Asia and bring it under their influence? Historically, it was always their sphere of influence and ASEAN countries were their tributaries. The U.S., when they were emerging as a great power in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, did the exact same thing in their own neighborhood in the Caribbean and Latin America; in fact they were much more blatant and aggressive about it then the Chinese are today, but perhaps times have changed since them. Eventually, India too should carve out a sphere of influence for itself in South Asia and the Indian Ocean region.

Confrontation with China is futile and pointless in the long run. Instead, both India and China should eventually recognize each others' spheres of influence. In the meantime, we can use the scepter of an Indo-U.S. "Alliance" to scare China, but such an alliance is not an end in itself.
You will remember that the United States were primarily confronting another European power, Spain at that time, not an Asian power. Correct me if I am mistaken.
 

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What is so wrong with China having a free reign to conquer East Asia and bring it under their influence? Historically, it was always their sphere of influence and ASEAN countries were their tributaries. The U.S., when they were emerging as a great power in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, did the exact same thing in their own neighborhood in the Caribbean and Latin America; in fact they were much more blatant and aggressive about it then the Chinese are today, but perhaps times have changed since them. Eventually, India too should carve out a sphere of influence for itself in South Asia and the Indian Ocean region.

Confrontation with China is futile and pointless in the long run. Instead, both India and China should eventually recognize each others' spheres of influence. In the meantime, we can use the scepter of an Indo-U.S. "Alliance" to scare China, but such an alliance is not an end in itself.
It is not wrong if the current year is 1800 or 1900. But in 2012, in the age of information permeating to the last mile, and the ability of the smaller countries to annihilate bigger countries if necessary, and the ability to transport people and troops anywhere in the shortest possible time changed the way we look at the game. You can influence on other countries and bully some which are weak but it's not easy to manage people as before. If an advanced and free societal country tries to engulf another nation, it would be acceptable. But a medival mindset country like china trying to annex advanced countries or free societal countries, it would not be acceptable. US atleast has some sense when they occupy. To put it in perspective, China is just a d**k encroaching your rear.
 

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Totalitarian government like China seeks to control not only all economic and political matters but the attitudes, values, and beliefs of its population, erasing the distinction between state and society.
So the Chinese want to create the Borg? Not a bad idea.


You will remember that the United States were primarily confronting another European power, Spain at that time, not an Asian power. Correct me if I am mistaken.
Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that the U.S. were indeed 'primarily confronting another European power' at that time. What difference would that make, as it pertains to my point?


It is not wrong if the current year is 1800 or 1900. But in 2012, in the age of information permeating to the last mile, and the ability of the smaller countries to annihilate bigger countries if necessary, and the ability to transport people and troops anywhere in the shortest possible time changed the way we look at the game. You can influence on other countries and bully some which are weak but it's not easy to manage people as before. If an advanced and free societal country tries to engulf another nation, it would be acceptable. But a medival mindset country like china trying to annex advanced countries or free societal countries, it would not be acceptable. US atleast has some sense when they occupy. To put it in perspective, China is just a d**k encroaching your rear.
Exactly which country is China trying to "engulf and annex"? Taiwan?

The Chinese mindset is in tune with how geopolitics work. They have learned from the Westerners who came before them, and we in turn should learn from them. Their mindset is not "medieval" but rather realistic.
 

amoy

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The Monroe Doctrine

Monroe Doctrine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Monroe Doctrine is a policy of the United States introduced on December 2, 1823. It stated that further efforts by European nations to colonize land or interfere with states in North or South America would be viewed as acts of aggression requiring U.S. intervention.[1] The Doctrine noted that the United States would neither interfere with existing European colonies nor meddle in the internal concerns of European countries. The Doctrine was issued at a time when nearly all Latin American colonies of Spain and Portugal had achieved independence from the Spanish Empire (except Cuba and Puerto Rico) and Portuguese Empire. The United States, working in agreement with Britain, wanted to guarantee no European power would move in.
As the United States began to emerge as a world power, the Monroe Doctrine came to define a recognized sphere of control that few dared to challenge.
The Cold War
During the Cold War, the Monroe Doctrine was applied to Latin America by the framers of U.S. foreign policy.[23] When the Cuban Revolution established a Communist government with ties to the Soviet Union, after trying to establish fruitful relations with the U.S., it was argued that the spirit of the Monroe Doctrine should be again invoked, this time to prevent the further spreading of Soviet-backed Communism in Latin America.[24] During the Cold War, the United States thus often provided intelligence and military aid to Latin and South American governments that claimed or appeared to be threatened by Communist subversion. This, in turn, led to some domestic controversy within the United States, especially among some members of the left who argued that the Communist threat and Soviet influence in Latin America was greatly exaggerated.[who?]

The debate over this new spirit of the Monroe Doctrine came to a head in the 1980s, as part of the Iran-Contra affair. Among other things, it was revealed that the U.S. Central Intelligence Agency had been covertly training "Contra" guerrilla soldiers in Honduras in an attempt to destabilize and overthrow the Sandinista revolutionary government of Nicaragua and its President, Daniel Ortega. CIA director Robert Gates vigorously defended the Contra operation, arguing that avoiding U.S. intervention in Nicaragua would be "totally to abandon the Monroe doctrine".
 
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asianobserve

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What is so wrong with China having a free reign to conquer East Asia and bring it under their influence?

Ask any Asian country if they want to go back to the ancient times when we have to pay tribute to the Chinese Emperor...
 

ice berg

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Ask any Asian country if they want to go back to the ancient times when we have to pay tribute to the Chinese Emperor...
China dont want tributes, but trade opportunities. The burgeoning trade between China and ASEAN is a good exemple.

Some people are just so deep in their XXXX to realise this. I dont recall Malaysia ever paid tributes to China though...
 

asianobserve

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China dont want tributes, but trade opportunities.
Trade aside, China wants all areas with oil at the fringes of the territory of their smaller neighbors to be theirs. You know why? Because China does not have much oil sources of each own and will use its new found military strength to grab these odd territories.

Oh we did pay your emperor tributes in ancient times, at least some sultanates.
 
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Ray

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What is so wrong with China having a free reign to conquer East Asia and bring it under their influence? Historically, it was always their sphere of influence and ASEAN countries were their tributaries. The U.S., when they were emerging as a great power in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, did the exact same thing in their own neighborhood in the Caribbean and Latin America; in fact they were much more blatant and aggressive about it then the Chinese are today, but perhaps times have changed since them. Eventually, India too should carve out a sphere of influence for itself in South Asia and the Indian Ocean region.

Confrontation with China is futile and pointless in the long run. Instead, both India and China should eventually recognize each others' spheres of influence. In the meantime, we can use the scepter of an Indo-U.S. "Alliance" to scare China, but such an alliance is not an end in itself.
There is no doubt that confrontation in any form between Nations is futile and even destructive to the national economy and progress.

However, that is in the ideal world and is utopia.

As man, so are Nations always trying to be the best amongst all. It is a natural phenomenon. Nothing surprising, World's history ratifies this fact.

For a Nation to be the best amongst others, it requires resources in minerals and land. Hence, the necessity to get those lands and when those who live on these lands oppose, then it is taken by force, This is called war.

When one want's to avoid war, through other means, including soft power, a Nation brings other nations in what is known as 'their spheres of influence' wherein, in actuality, the other nation becomes a semi surrogate of the Nation that exerts itself and bring these Nations in that Nation's sphere of influence'.

What you observe around the world which appear to be 'confrontational' is but this being played out. This being a modern world with devastating weapons of destruction, there is no open war, but a whole lot of jockeying for power with small confrontation that does not take the form of a conflagration.

In so far as China is concerned, its history indicates the steady expansionism from the original area North of the Yellow River.

However, it is not true that countries of ASEAN were tributaries of China.

Vietnam's three sisters overthrew the Chinese rulers even though they have captured the areas north of Vietnam, which has similar ethnicity as the Viets.

Thailand or Siam is believed that Siam was derived from the Hindi word shyam, or brown race, with a contemptuous signification. Indianized kingdoms such as the Mon, Khmer and Malay kingdoms had ruled the region. Thai people established their own states starting with Sukhothai, Chiang Saen and Chiang Mai and Lanna Kingdom and then Ayutthaya kingdom.

The most recent and accurate theory about the origin of the Tai people stipulates that Guangxi province in China is really the Tai motherland instead of Yunnan province. A large number of Tai people, known as the Zhuang, still live in Guangxi today. Around 700 AD, Tai people who did not come under Chinese influence settled in what is now Dien Bien Phu in modern Vietnam according to the Khun Borom legend. From there, the Tais began to radiate into northern highlands and founded the cities of Luang Prabang and Chiang Saen.

I could not find any Chinese connection with Cambodia.

In short, though I may have missed it, but I sure would like to know if indeed these countries were under Chinese (Han to be precise) sphere of influence or tributaries of China.
 
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