Marx becoming relevant again: Tariq Ali

Adux

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The Marxists and socialists did play a very important role in the passage of labor laws including, but not limited to, the minimum wage, eight-hour workday, and banning of child labour. This was because the Marxists and socialists formed the radical end of the labour movement and "shocked" the governments of various industrialising countries into action. Since countries like the U.S. and U.K. did not want to see Marxists and socialists gain power and popularity among their population, they implemented various labour reforms to reduce the appeal of Marxism/socialism among the lower classes. Most reform movements require radicals of some sort to galvanize action, since moderates are too easy to ignore.

Also, attributing the crimes of people like Stalin and Mao to Marx makes absolutely no sense whatsover.
Not true, Child labor was abolished in various countries far before Karl Marx ever wrote anything about Communism, Take UK for example , abolished child labor 40 years before,

Labor Laws was passed in UK, Germany, France far before the advent of Communism. 1802 to be exact, and further reforms were a regular feature as time passed.

Was Life in Industrial revolution era rosy, nope. But it was a phase, and labor reforms further would have happened without the intervention of Communism, Communism just like any other utopian ideology (read religion) means to control and convert people to make a few attain power at the expense of others.
 

Mad Indian

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I dont make the thread personal, unless i know that person, but you leave me no choice. I wanted to debate it with PM as i know he is not that socialistic, unlike some self righteous socialist idiots here.

I normally do not respond to your posts since, well, since you're nothing but a very big troll.
If i am a troll then you are a Hypocrit- That Nationalist Socialist who defended the mercy plea on the Rojoana case;). Any way, its funny that you dint find my post supporting your stand on not executing Rojoana as not a troll:p. Figures, selective blindness is always present in Socies

And BTW, are you a socialist? F no. You are that middle class enjoying his comfort ;life with the computer and stuff speaking about the glories of Socialsm:doh: . Any way, will you distribute your income to your workers just like that-? Just asking.

However, let me respond to your stupidity here; had you actually read the article, you would have noticed that Tariq Ali is talking about studying Marx to better understand the politics and economics of the world; not implementing communism!

Ha, i did read the article, its your arrogance to assume i dint- figures. Any way, Karl marx wrote a book- not a poem which can be re-explained and re adjusted to suit your ivew. No matter how many times they revisit it, shit is shit.

The capitalism you see today uses concepts borrowed from Marx himself. Labour unions, minimum wage laws, and even government interference (like the recent American government's bailouts of several giant American companies) are all concepts and consequences tying into Marx's works. No capitalist country in the world today is fully capitalist and borrows on improvements from Marx's critique of the Capitalist system
No you did not say that-

1. Labour union- really? Thats just shit. Its responsible for nil investment WB and Kerala gets
2. Minimum wage laws- Dude?
3. Govt interference is foolish and it is not Marxism- :frusty:. Did marx ask the govt to bailout the Capitalists? Its a common misunderstanding to think that Govt bailout is socialism- it just means anti- free market- again not a very good thing

. This is ofcourse unless you hold the Chinese as the beaming light of capitalism, with their lack of labour laws; but, even the Chinese have recently started allowing labour unions to be formed!
:facepalm: Chinese are more capitalist than the capitalist nations themselves- thats the reason for their success.

That all said and done, dude, did you say you're in medical school? :rolleyes:
Fvk i am. At least i know what i am talking about unlike most idiots here who have no clue about their ideology- be it left, right or center.
 
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Mad Indian

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1) You don't know shit about me.
I know you are a med student and that was enough for me in this debate. Any way, may be i was wrong regarding that, that you are a med student, but in case you are, just ask yourself, are you that holy cow that you will share your income to your driver-just incase;). Any who, its just a scenerio:heh:

2) You might have some good points against communism, but we will never appreciate them because you flood your posts with teenage language and smilies.
You will never appreciate them even if i dont use those similies. Heck you dint in the other communism thread, where you left debating after the communism as an ideology was shown to be shit.

3) You come off as a troll with an inferiority complex of some sort.
You sure know no shit about me, i sure as fvk dont have inferiority complex. WE can debate it out if you are up for it.,though i personally feel you have some sort of superiority complex of some sort. Dont know for sure. But since all our chats were at SB, and there is no way of recording them, i wont go into that trouble on who has the complex.

No, I am not interested in debating with teenagers.

Why one round was enough? Any way good to know
 
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civfanatic

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Not true, Child labor was abolished in various countries far before Karl Marx ever wrote anything about Communism, Take UK for example , abolished child labor 40 years before

Labor Laws was passed in UK, Germany, France far before the advent of Communism. 1802 to be exact, and further reforms were a regular feature as time passed.
No, child labour was not abolished in any countries that early. The labour movement naturally began in Britain since it was the first country to industrialize, but even there the labour movement did not achieve any real success until the mid- to late-19th century. The Factory Acts which were passed in Britain starting in 1802 were attempts to regulate child labour but they were largely ineffective, hence why labour agitation continued well into the 19th century and first half of the 20th century. And the abolition of child labour was just one aspect of the labour movement; there were many other grievances, such as the lack of adequate safety standards.

If we take the United States as an example, where child labour was widespread well into the 20th century, the key pieces of legislation regarding the labour movement were the La Guardia Act (1932), which limited federal interference in labour unions; the Wagner Act (1935), which protects the right of labour unions to collective bargaining; and most importantly, the Fair Labour Act (1938), which first introduced the minimum wage and banned child labour. All three of these key legislative acts were passed at least in part to prevent the American labour movement from becoming increasingly radicalized, as pro-Marxist sympathies were on the rise during the Great Depression.
 

pmaitra

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Guys, please, let this not get personal. Also, let us leave Rajoana out of this, because that is OT.

Mad Indian, you are right about Labour Unions and their activities in WB, however, whatever CivFanatic said is indeed correct. He is also correct about minimum wage laws and 8 hour workday.

Government interference is not necessarily Marxism, and that word was missing in your sentence.

You are correct that PRC, today, is more capitalist than communist, but it wasn't like that in the beginning.
 

Tronic

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Not true, Child labor was abolished in various countries far before Karl Marx ever wrote anything about Communism, Take UK for example , abolished child labor 40 years before,
Child labour in the UK was still rampant even into the early 20th century! The industrial revolution and the Victorian era (1832-1901) is notorious for the growth of child labour!

The child labour laws of the 19th and 18th centuries were not there to abolish Child labour, but to regulate it.

Labor Laws was passed in UK, Germany, France far before the advent of Communism. 1802 to be exact, and further reforms were a regular feature as time passed.
Adux, read those laws, they were still notorious.

Child Labour in America in the 20th century is well documented:
The History Place - Child Labor in America: Investigative Photos of Lewis Hine

Was Life in Industrial revolution era rosy, nope. But it was a phase, and labor reforms further would have happened without the intervention of Communism,
Possibly, but one cannot argue against the fact that the reforms were sped up due to the threat of the far-left. The Socialist Party of America, from the 1900 to 1920s became the fastest growing leftist party in that country, even outpacing the moderate left parties!

It was only after the moderate left, the Democratic Party, under Roosevelt, got directly involved with the country's economy, implementing several social programs, bringing fourth labour reforms, putting in place government regulation of US industries, did the socialist party's support start to wane. At the time, the right wing Republicans were up in arms against the Democrats, terming them the enemies of business and growth. Yet, it was the moderate left which brought about the reforms in American industries, brought America out of depression, and to this day, remains a party with the longest history of ruling America.

So the point is not about full on communism! You are clinging onto one extreme.

Communism is the far-left. We are talking about the moderate left.

Labour laws are somewhere in the middle of full on capitalism and full on communism.

That is the whole point.

Communism just like any other utopian ideology (read religion) means to control and convert people to make a few attain power at the expense of others.
Communism is a wonderful utopian idea which works on paper, but not in real life, due to human nature.

Marx being shunned in totality simply because of the communist tag is ignorance however. He is an extreme example of one end of the spectrum, but that alone does not make the spectrum not worth studying!
 

pmaitra

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Charles Dickens' (7 February 1812 – 9 June 1870) David Copperfield, reflects his life in Britain. One should read it before commenting on UK's child labour.

The Minimum Age Convention was help by the International Labour Organization, which, originally, was part of the League of Nations, and whose creation was largely influenced by Trade Unions and Labour Unions.

Regarding UK, it ratified the Minimum Age Convention, 1973, on June 7, 2000.
 

Mad Indian

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Guys, please, let this not get personal. Also, let us leave Rajoana out of this, because that is OT.
Thanks, i called for your name , as you were the socialist(at least you think you are) and i thought you were a capitalist and i wanted to slug it out with you. But then some self righteous leftist comes around and calls me a troll, what to do. Unfortunately i have a good memory. So i had to bring his stuff too:innocent:

Regarding Civ, i only ,meant the Economic part, but i think he misunderstood me and thought i was speaking sbout his boasts on the SB:laugh:. So he went on to claim that i have inferiority complex and shit. If the SB is recorded , we will know who has complex, but alas. Any who, i repeat, i hate commies and i wanted just a economic discussion but its not my fault if people respond it in a stupid way and i am forced to respond to it.

Mad Indian, you are right about Labour Unions and their activities in WB, however, whatever CivFanatic said is indeed correct. He is also correct about minimum wage laws and 8 hour workday.
But the thing is, the Capitalism is not the reason for that neither is the Communism. The Thing is, the laws would have eventually come into force as the people got richer and the economy picked up, albeit slower and at a lesser cost the Humanity payed for Communism and Socialism. I still cant forgive that Nehru [edited] for fcuking up my country with socialism.

Government interference is not necessarily Marxism, and that word was missing in your sentence.
No i thought i said that- govt interfernce is not equal to Marxism . You are right. Here is what i said

3. Govt interference is foolish and it is not Marxism- . Did marx ask the govt to bailout the Capitalists? Its a common misunderstanding to think that Govt bailout is socialism- it just means anti- free market- again not a very good thing
You are correct that PRC, today, is more capitalist than communist, but it wasn't like that in the beginning.
BUt thats why it is more successful and wants to be a supah powah now:sad:- True story
 

civfanatic

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Charles Dickens' (7 February 1812 – 9 June 1870) David Copperfield, reflects his life in Britain. One should read it before commenting on UK's child labour.

The Minimum Age Convention was help by the International Labour Organization, which, originally, was part of the League of Nations, and whose creation was largely influenced by Trade Unions and Labour Unions.

Regarding UK, it ratified the Minimum Age Convention, 1973, on June 7, 2000.
The minimum wage is a rather recent thing in the history of the labour movement. It has its roots in FDR's "New Deal" during the Great Depression.
 

pmaitra

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The minimum wage is a rather recent thing in the history of the labour movement. It has its roots in FDR's "New Deal" during the Great Depression.
Recent, as in the first convention being in 1919. Could be a coincidence, but the USSR was founded in 1919.
 

Tronic

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This is why I don't normally respond to this. He makes you get down to his own level.

If i am a troll then you are a Hypocrit- That Nationalist Socialist who defended the mercy plea on the Rojoana case;). Any way, its funny that you dint find my post supporting your stand on not executing Rojoana as not a troll:p. Figures, selective blindness is always present in Socies
I don't know what you supported or what you didn't.

Your posts are normally not worth spending much time on.

Most likely your posts there were ignored.

And BTW, are you a socialist? F no. You are that middle class enjoying his comfort ;life with the computer and stuff speaking about the glories of Socialsm:doh: . Any way, will you distribute your income to your workers just like that-? Just asking.
You don't know shit about me. I have said what I am, you may not have the intellectual ability to process what I write.

Ha, i did read the article, its your arrogance to assume i dint- figures. Any way, Karl marx wrote a book- not a poem which can be re-explained and re adjusted to suit your ivew. No matter how many times they revisit it, shit is shit.
You read the article and are still ranting against implementation of Communism?

Either you're a deliberate troll, or an unintentional dumb ass.

No you did not say that-

1. Labour union- really? Thats just shit. Its responsible for nil investment WB and Kerala gets
2. Minimum wage laws- Dude?
3. Govt interference is foolish and it is not Marxism- :frusty:. Did marx ask the govt to bailout the Capitalists? Its a common misunderstanding to think that Govt bailout is socialism- it just means anti- free market- again not a very good thing
Can't argue with that logic.

:facepalm: Chinese are more capitalist than the capitalist nations themselves- thats the reason for their success.
Exactly. :laugh:

I said the same thing. Learn to read.

Fvk i am. At least i know what i am talking about unlike most idiots here who have no clue about their ideology- be it left, right or center.
Yeah, I can see that.

Goodluck graduating through med school. :laugh:
 

Mad Indian

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This is why I don't normally respond to this. He makes you get down to his own level.
No mostly you run away from everything which wont suit you:taunt1:. This time its different, dont know why.

I don't know what you supported or what you didn't.

Your posts are normally not worth spending much time on.

Most likely your posts there were ignored.
You liked it dumb ass, when i said . Reading difficulties?:lol:

You don't know shit about me. I have said what I am, you may not have the intellectual ability to process what I write.
Oh please, i know you are among the rich middle class who can afford a computer and post shit regarding socialism and non sense. You sure dont represent poor, just like most intellectuals. And i sure dont think you are a commie.

You read the article and are still ranting against implementation of Communism?
This itself shows what an ignorant troll you are and this itself should have prevented you from in participating in this discussion. I said the economic ideology of marx is shit, that is all. Show me the stuff where i have said about implementing it. You cant as l have not said any thing like that:taunt1:.

Either you're a deliberate troll, or an unintentional dumb ass.
Ya i can see that about you:heh:

Can't argue with that logic.
Because it is right:lol:

I said the same thing. Learn to read.
Then why did you bring it here. Capitalism not equal to no labour unions:doh:. It was the Commie countries which brought the restrictions on Labour unions AFAIK

Yeah, I can see that.
Just like you.

Goodluck graduating through med school.
:rotflmao: Says the Nationalist socialist who was advocating the clemency of Rojaona Singh. Well good luck with your socialism- you Champagne Socialist:taunt1:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Champagne_socialist
 
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pmaitra

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Mad Indian, it is not Rajoana Singh, it is Balwant Singh Rajoana. Anyway, we are not discussing Beant Singh's assassination here. Please don't bring in off topic comments.
 

Mad Indian

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Mad Indian, it is not Rajoana Singh, it is Balwant Singh Rajoana. Anyway, we are not discussing Beant Singh's assassination here. Please don't bring in off topic comments.
He calls me a troll, without even reading what i said- what can i do?:noidea:
 

Adux

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Silly tweebs again with idiotic musings, not to mention even a more idiotic tweeb of a prefect


The factory Act was passed in 1833 which made it illegal for factory owners to employ children under 9 years old, this coincided with the abolition of Slavery in the UK in 1833 - 34. During this time it was becoming more recognised that children needed to be educated mostly for the upper classes, however under The Factory Act it was made compulsory for factory owners to provide 2 hours of education daily for under 13's

Further legislation was enforced in 1844, 1847, 1850, 1853 and 1867. After 1867 factories could not employ under 8's and children between the ages of 8 and 13 were to receive at least 10 hours of education per week, this was by no means foolproof though and inspectors often found it difficult to prove the age of child and a lot of factory owners did not provide the correct hours set side for education - that's in the U.K.
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/When_was_child_labor_abolished
 

Tronic

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No mostly you run away from everything which wont suit you:taunt1:. This time its different, dont know why.
Had time to kill.

You liked it dumb ass, when i said . Reading difficulties?:lol:
As long as you're happy.

Oh please, i know you are among the rich middle class who can afford a computer and post shit regarding socialism and non sense. You sure dont represent poor, just like most intellectuals. And i sure dont think you are a commie.
Again, don't have time to sit here and school pricks on the difference between egalitarian socialist principles and the economic divide. Just don't cry like on other thread when I label you out for right wing on everything else besides economy.

This itself shows what an ignorant troll you are and this itself should have prevented you from in participating in this discussion. I said the economic ideology of marx is shit, that is all. Show me the stuff where i have said about implementing it. You cant as l have not said any thing like that:taunt1:.
You've been ranting about communism since your second post, while the article had nothing on it, and was comparing the social aspects of Marx with the fundoos using religion today.

Because it is right:lol:
Because it makes no sense.

Then why did you bring it here. Capitalism not equal to no labour unions:doh:. It was the Commie countries which brought the restrictions on Labour unions AFAIK
What BS. You yourself said China was capitalist, and I agree. China not implementing labour unions is because its going against it's own commie system.

:rotflmao: Says the Nationalist socialist who was advocating the clemency of Rojaona Singh. Well good luck with your socialism- you Champagne Socialist:taunt1:Champagne socialist - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
[/QUOTE]

Never advocated the clemency for Rajoana, dumbass; only advocated equal punishment to all.
 

Adux

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Tronic,

It might have been notoroious, so was the old times, it was time we were enslaved remember? So I suggest you dont judge it by today's standards

The point is, Communist thugs are not the reason for development of Humanity in Humans, especially for something as basic labor laws and child labor.
 

pmaitra

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Pfffft - WikiAnswer! :lol: (not laughing at WikiAnswer, but at the answer)

Guess it takes more than an imbecile to post a link and not read it.

The factory Act was passed in 1833 which made it illegal for factory owners to employ children under 9 years old, this coincided with the abolition of Slavery in the UK in 1833 - 34. During this time it was becoming more recognised that children needed to be educated mostly for the upper classes, however under The Factory Act it was made compulsory for factory owners to provide 2 hours of education daily for under 13's

Further legislation was enforced in 1844, 1847, 1850, 1853 and 1867. After 1867 factories could not employ under 8's and children between the ages of 8 and 13 were to receive at least 10 hours of education per week, this was by no means foolproof though and inspectors often found it difficult to prove the age of child and a lot of factory owners did not provide the correct hours set side for education - that's in the U.K

Read more: When was child labor abolished
Very nice. An 8 year old could be legally employed in a factory, and that is called a 'Labour Law.' Fooling the masses was easier in those days, unfortunately, not any more, except in some exceptional cases.
 

Tronic

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Tronic,

It might have been notoroious, so was the old times, it was time we were enslaved remember? So I suggest you dont judge it by today's standards

The point is, Communist thugs are not the reason for development of Humanity in Humans, especially for something as basic labor laws and child labor.
No, they are not.

However, there are indeed some things that they do right, as can be observed from Kerala's very high Human Development Index. Nothing wrong in adopting things which work.
 

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