Markandey Katju: What is India?

Bangalorean

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Do people actually have enough spare time on their hands to read Tehelka ?

You watch India TV too ?
I was referring to the Katju's article, not the link that I posted. The link that I posted appeared on churumuri.wordpress.com - a Bangalore-Mysore blog which I regularly follow.
 

KS

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I was referring to the Katju's article, not the link that I posted. The link that I posted appeared on churumuri.wordpress.com - a Bangalore-Mysore blog which I regularly follow.
Are you sure of the quality of that blog ?

Just 4% of population but 7 Brahmins in Indian XI? � churumuri

I mean c'mon.

Actually I read through that Tehelka link and wanted to rebut many points that were gross generalizations, falseties and exaggerations. But what's the point ? People who know about Tehelka know its idealogical leanings. That would be like explaining the virtues of Modi to Teesta. So let be.
 

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And so we begin. :D

Let me demolish this article piece by piece.

Markandey Katju: What is India?

Page 2

Who were the original inhabitants of India? At one time it was believed that the Dravidians were the original inhabitants, but now that theory has been disproved. Now, it is believed that even the Dravidians came from outside. There are several proofs of that, one of which is that there is a Dravidian language called Brahui which is spoken in Western Pakistan even today by about three million people. The original inhabitants of India, as it is believed now, were the pre-Dravidians tribal, who are called adivasis or Scheduled Tribes in India e.g. the Bhils, the Santhals, the Gonds, the Todas, etc., that is, the speakers of the Austric, pre Dravidian languages e.g. Munda, Gondvi, etc. They are hardly seven or eight percent of the Indian population today. They were pushed into the forests by the immigrants and treated very badly. Except for them all of us are descendents of immigrants who came mainly from the North West of India. (See in this connection the article `Kalidas Ghalib Academy for Mutual Understanding' on the website kgfindia.com.)
Were Pakistan and India were different at that time? Is he saying Pakistan was a foreign country?

Does he knows the term Dravidian? The term "dravid" means where three rivers meet. And it clearly refers to the south India.

Clever way to distort facts.

(2) Because India is a country of immigrants there is tremendous diversity in India so many religions, castes, languages, ethnic groups, etc. Somebody is tall, somebody is short, somebody is fair, somebody is dark, somebody is brown, with all kinds of shades in between, someone has got Mongoloid features, someone has got Caucasian features, someone has got Negroid features, there are differences in food habits, dress, traditional festivals, etc. We may compare India with China. Our population is about 1200 million while China has about 1300 million and they have perhaps 2 ½ times our land area. However, there is broad (though not absolute) homogeneity in China. All Chineese have Mongoloid faces, they have one common written script called Mandarin Chinese (although spoken dialects are different), and 95% Chinese belong to one ethnic group called the Han Chinese. So there is broad homogeneity in China. In India, on the other hand, there is tremendous diversity, because whichever group of immigrants came into India brought in their own culture, their religion, their language etc.
The physical features are not because of ascendants, they are resultant of environmental factors. How is that the northies look generally alike and southies look generally alike?

(3) Is India a nation at all, or is it just a group of hundreds of kinds of immigrants? Is there anything common in India? The answer is that the immigrants who came into India over the last 10 thousand years or so, by their interaction and intermingling created a common culture which can broadly be called the Sanskrit- Urdu culture. This is our culture.

Now this has to be explained because some people asked me when I put forward this thesis how do you say this is the culture of India? How are Tamilians part of Sanskrit Urdu culture, what have the people of Nagaland got to do with Sanskrit and Urdu, etc.
Urdu is a native language yes. But has he completely lost it when he says "Sanskrit-Urdu" culture? The culture pertains to just the languages or the traditional way of life?

I want to tell you about the scientific achievements of our ancestors. But before doing so let me tell you that a lot of people talk non-sense that in ancient India there were atom bombs, guided missiles, etc. This is all non-sense, and you make a laughing stock of yourselves by talking like this. Some people say that we had aeroplanes in ancient India, because in the Ramayana it is mentioned that Lord Ram brought Sita back from Lanka on a Pushpak Viman. They conclude from this that there were aeroplanes in ancient India. Everyone, including children, know that the first aeroplane was invented by the Wright brothers in America in 1903. so it is total nonsense to say that we had aeroplanes in ancient India.

Now it is true that in the Ramayana there is mention of PushpakViman. But what is the Ramayana? It is an epic poem. A poet has what is called poetic licence. That means that he has a right to exaggerate. So we should not take words in a poem literally. If there were aeroplanes in ancient India then that means there were engines. Then why did the ancient warriors fight on chariots, horses and elephants, they should have fought in tanks. This kind of talk is all nonsense, and we make a laughing stock of ourselves by talking like this.
He does not even knows that in the "known history" the aero-planes was first conceptualized many years before the Wright brothers.
Early flying machines - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

And a person can disprove of something because no one has yet been able to garner tangible proof for it? That is not scientific method Mr. Katju. By that way, we should not talk of dark matter and dark energy either.

And then Ramayana becomes a figment of imagination. So all other scriptures including the Vedas, the Upanishads and Bhagavad Gita must be figment of imaginations too? In that sense, he means to say all that people have achieved through this texts are based on false unscientific foundations. Who are you trying too fool? Or are you yourself not competent enough on the subjects that you speak of them with so much authority.

The real great achievements of our ancestors most people are totally unaware of, and instead they talk such nonsense.
Surely, nonsense to an unthinking individual.

You may not believe all this but look at the flight of imagination of our ancestors, how high they could go.
Yeah sure, then they were the greatest intellectuals who can devise perfect methods just by imagining things. What utter nonsense!

Today we are far behind them, so what happened? Why did we not have an Industrial Revolution? Why did we lag behind? This is known as Needham's question or Needham's Grand Question, first posed by Prof. Joseph Needham. He was a brilliant Professor in micro-biology in Cambridge University who born in 1900 and became a Professor in 1925. Prof. Needham posed this question why did India and China who were ahead of whole world in Science and Technology at one time later fell behind and did not have an Industrial Revolution. This question has been sought to be answered in various ways, but that discussion will have to be held some other day.
Because people of ancient India were aware of the wrought that industrialization would bring about on nature. They exactly knew what was more important to Man.

Now, just imagine what mischief has been done. Deliberately our history books have been falsified so that the mind of a child at an impressionable age is poisoned so that he should start hating Muslims in India and in Pakistan he should start hating Hindus. The poison put in the mind of an impressionable age is very difficult to remove at a later age. All our history books have been falsified in this manner.
Does he knows most of chapters of the history books were devoted to Mughal rulers?

Q. Tell me what went wrong in the Aurangzeb era where million of Hindus were converted into Muslims? How it changed the entire picture, what was going on?
A. I think you did not do your home work, because if you had, you would have read in the article called 'Kalidas Ghalib Academy for Mutual Understanding' on the website called kgfindia.com which is the website of the organization of which I am a patron called Kalidas Ghalib Foundation.
That is his source?

Q. My question is going back to the ancient times in India. How did the caste system evolve? Who created this caste system in India and why does it still linger on and why is it still so powerful in India?
A. Caste system originated from a racial basis, that is, a white race, the Aryans came to India and conquered a dark coloured race, and the proof of this is that even now India is a racial society, we prefer white colour When we advertise in newspapers we say "wanted fair colour bride", when a child is born if the colour is fair, the grand mother is very happy. But, having originated from a racial basis caste later on developed into the feudal occupational division of labour in society. That means that every vocation became a caste, like for instance, carpenter 'badhai' became a caste, 'lohar', blacksmith became a caste, potter, 'kumhar' became a caste etc.
Totally incorrect! The fact that he begins with AIT says much. Historians are gradually withdrawing from it. At least those who are unbiased.
 
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Bangalorean

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Are you sure of the quality of that blog ?

Just 4% of population but 7 Brahmins in Indian XI? � churumuri

I mean c'mon.

Actually I read through that Tehelka link and wanted to rebut many points that were gross generalizations, falseties and exaggerations. But what's the point ? People who know about Tehelka know its idealogical leanings. That would be like explaining the virtues of Modi to Teesta. So let be.
The blog is of excellent quality.

It is run by an eminent journalist called Krishna Prasad.

Such articles are provocative and spicy, and the blog brings up lot of such stuff.
 

KS

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Such articles are provocative and spicy, and the blog brings up lot of such stuff.
Then how do you say it is excellent. ?

An excellent blog , generally, must be one that speaks about happenings in an objective way and not in a provocative way with the blogger's own take on it, intended to generate a debate. Yes, it might be excellent as a tautly directed movie script will full of masala..but then that becomes the work of fiction of one man and not the objective truth that needs to be debated upon.
 

LurkerBaba

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Rearranging some of the paragraphs .....(I'm not going to reply to the entire document.)

(1) India is broadly a country of immigrants, like North America.The difference between North America and India is that North America is a country of new immigrants, where people came mainly from Europe over the last four to five hundred years, India is a country of old immigrants where people have been coming in for 10 thousand years or so.

(i) India is broadly a country of immigrants like North America. Over 92% people living in India are not the original inhabitants of India. Their ancestors came from outside, mainly from the North West.

(ii) Because India is a country of immigrants like North America there is tremendous diversity in India - so many religions, castes, languages, ethnic groups etc.
America is a result of colonization and genocide of their native population, "country of immigrants" is a just a term to hide the fact.

10,000 years is also "immigration" ? What next, do we start judging cave men by modern standards of human rights ?

But, yes I agree with the fact that there is tremendous genetic diversity in the Subcontinent. There have been multiple waves of human migration, each wave was assimilated and "Indianized" (most of the waves)

(iii) Despite the tremendous diversity in India, by the interaction and intermingling of these immigrants who came into India a common culture emerged in India which can broadly be called the Sanskrit-Urdu culture, which is broadly the culture of India.
Extremely interesting. So, waves from the last 9000 years were integrated into a common culture called "Sanskrit" culture ? But somehow later waves give rise to a "common" Sankrit-Urdu culture ?

Completely disagree with this line of thinking. If there was a common culture then it would not have a silly name of "Sanskrit-Urdu" culture.

Actually, I even disagree with the "Sanskrit" culture part. There was no such thing as "Sanskrit" culture, but rather Sanskrit-Tamil culture, where true cultural fusion occurred. Shaivism, which is supposed to be "Dravidian" in origin became a part of this common culture. However, same cannot be said about this "common" "Sanskrit-Udru" culture.

Now it is true that in the Ramayana there is mention of PushpakViman. But what is the Ramayana? It is an epic poem. A poet has what is called poetic licence. That means that he has a right to exaggerate. So we should not take words in a poem literally. If there were aeroplanes in ancient India then that means there were engines. Then why did the ancient warriors fight on chariots, horses and elephants, they should have fought in tanks. This kind of talk is all nonsense, and we make a laughing stock of ourselves by talking like this.
True, as a rationalist I just take them as works of literature.

However, Fying cars, nuclear weapons etc etc in ancient India etc are as nonsensical as say...... angels talking to Prophets or creationism or.....


About Urdu there is a misconception that it is the language of Muslims and of foreigners, which is a totally false propaganda made against Urdu after 1947 that is after Partition.


Unlike Arabic and Persian which are foreign language, Urdu is an indigenous language, and is loved by the people of India even today. If you go to a bookstall on a railway platform in India you will find a lot of poetry books of Mir, Ghalib, Firaq, etc. of course, nowadays in Devanagiri script.
Urdu was an a language created to allow the Persian speaking nobility to rule over the denizens of Hindustan. It's like a bridge for total Persianization of the populace. Ghalib himself wrote poetry in Persian, and was more proud of it than his Urdu work

Two people can be said to be the creators of modern India. One is the Emperor Akbar, and the other is Pandit Jawahar Lal Nehru. There was no ruler in the world like Emperor Akbar.
Akbar was a good guy, but his mark on history is insignificant. If he was truly great, then Islam in India would have been localized and digested as Din-i-Ilahi. He failed in this.

By comparison Ashoka is better by many orders of magnitude. He spread Buddhism and Indian culture to the entire ASEAN region. His moral code on the Ashokstambha was probably the first charter of human rights in the entire world.

In this connection I wish to tell you that the initial Muslim invaders who came into India no doubt broke a lot of Hindu temples, like for instance, Mahmood Ghazni who broke the Somnath temple.

Now, just imagine what mischief has been done. Deliberately our history books have been falsified so that the mind of a child at an impressionable age is poisoned so that he should start hating Muslims in India and in Pakistan he should start hating Hindus. The poison put in the mind of an impressionable age is very difficult to remove at a later age. All our history books have been falsified in this manner.

It is time we re-write our History books and show that in fact upto 1857 there was no communal problem at all in India.
Wow ! He's making an equal-equal with the Pakis on the history part ! Our history books are incredibly biased in favor of the Mughals, things like the sacrifices of the Sikh gurus are not even mentioned, the wars with the Marathas are just a passing remark.

Some will rationalize: "that temples were sacked due to the wealth, nothing to do with religion of the invader, it was simply his greed". So let's just leave "oppression of Hindus" and "Hindu-Muslim" conflict aside, as that discussion will just lead to a big circle-jerk.

Take the case of Nalanda University. It was sacked, destroyed and the monks killed simply because it didn't hold a copy of the Koran.

No jewels, no gold, no wealth; just books and defenseless monks. No communal problem before 1857 eh ? That reminds me, do we have the destruction of Nalanda (and thus Buddhism) in our history books ?
 

KS

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Rearranging some of the paragraphs .....(I'm not going to reply to the entire document.)



America is a result of colonization and genocide of their native population, "country of immigrants" is a just a term to hide the fact.

10,000 years is also "immigration" ? What next, do we start judging cave men by modern standards of human rights ?

But, yes I agree with the fact that there is tremendous genetic diversity in the Subcontinent. There have been multiple waves of human migration, each wave was assimilated and "Indianized" (most of the waves)



Extremely interesting. So, waves from the last 9000 years were integrated into a common culture called "Sanskrit" culture ? But somehow later waves give rise to a "common" Sankrit-Urdu culture ?

Completely disagree with this line of thinking. If there was a common culture then it would not have a silly name of "Sanskrit-Urdu" culture.

Actually, I even disagree with the "Sanskrit" culture part. There was no such thing as "Sanskrit" culture, but rather Sanskrit-Tamil culture, where true cultural fusion occurred. Shaivism, which is supposed to be "Dravidian" in origin became a part of this common culture. However, same cannot be said about this "common" "Sanskrit-Udru" culture.



True, as a rationalist I just take them as works of literature.

However, Fying cars, nuclear weapons etc etc in ancient India etc are as nonsensical as say...... angels talking to Prophets or creationism or.....




Urdu was an a language created to allow the Persian speaking nobility to rule over the denizens of Hindustan. It's like a bridge for total Persianization of the populace. Ghalib himself wrote poetry in Persian, and was more proud of it than his Urdu work



Akbar was a good guy, but his mark on history is insignificant. If he was truly great, then Islam in India would have been localized and digested as Din-i-Ilahi. He failed in this.

By comparison Ashoka is better by many orders of magnitude. He spread Buddhism and Indian culture to the entire ASEAN region. His moral code on the Ashokstambha was probably the first charter of human rights in the entire world.



Wow ! He's making an equal-equal with the Pakis on the history part ! Our history books are incredibly biased in favor of the Mughals, things like the sacrifices of the Sikh gurus are not even mentioned, the wars with the Marathas are just a passing remark.

Some will rationalize: "that temples were sacked due to the wealth, nothing to do with religion of the invader, it was simply his greed". So let's just leave "oppression of Hindus" and "Hindu-Muslim" conflict aside, as that discussion will just lead to a big circle-jerk.

Take the case of Nalanda University. It was sacked, destroyed and the monks killed simply because it didn't hold a copy of the Koran.

No jewels, no gold, no wealth; just books and defenseless monks. No communal problem before 1857 eh ? That reminds me, do we have the destruction of Nalanda (and thus Buddhism) in our history books ?
Stole my words..the bolded parts.
 

KS

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After reading his article, I am more convinced that lawyers or judges should not be let anywhere outside their court rooms and especially into history lectures. Such generalizations and inaccuracies.

India is broadly a country of immigrants, like North America.The difference between North America and India is that North America is a country of new immigrants, where people came mainly from Europe over the last four to five hundred years, India is a country of old immigrants where people have been coming in for 10 thousand years or so.
India =/= North America.

Main reason : What happened in North America was , in no uncertain terms, an ethnic cleansing of the local population by outsiders using all forces at their disposal. That was no immigration dammit. That was plain genocide.

On the contrary what happened in the Indian subcontinent is :

first of all is not clear as there is no definitive conclusion reached on it yet. What exists are various hypothesis by various anthropologists with each having their own explanations, strong points and weaknesses.

And again comparing/equating what happens gradually over many thousands of years with small groups of moving in search of pasture,water and fertile soil, settling down and gradually assimilating themselves into the local society with no difference visible with invasions/conquests that happened over a relatively short span of time is a dumb thing to do.



Caste system originated from a racial basis, that is, a white race, the Aryans came to India and conquered a dark coloured race,
AIT..? Seriously ?


Now, it is believed that even the Dravidians came from outside. There are several proofs of that, one of which is that there is a Dravidian language called Brahui which is spoken in Western Pakistan even today by about three million people. Except for them all of us are descendents of immigrants who came mainly from the North West of India
Please some one tell him that his 'beliefs' actually dont stand upto scientific scrutiny. In Indian context, Aryan and Dravidian are linguistic terms and nothing to do with ethnicity.

The so-called Aryans and Dravidian races of India are members of the same Mediterranean branch of the Caucasian race, which prevailed in the ancient civilizations of Egypt and Sumeria and is still the main group in the Mediterranean area, North Africa, and the Middle East. The Caucasian race is not simply white but also contains dark skinned types. Skin color and race is another nineteenth century idea that has been recently discarded.

Darker skin color is commonly found in peoples living in more southern regions and appears as an adjustment mechanism to hotter climates and greater sunshine. For example southern Europeans are darker in skin color than northern Europeans, though they are not a different race because of this. This suggests that the Dravidian branch of the Mediterranean race must have lived in South India for some thousands of years to make this adjustment, and the same thing could be said of the people of North India as well if we would make them originally light-skinned invaders from the north.


Solid Evidence Debunking Aryan Invasion



Is India a nation at all, or is it just a group of hundreds of kinds of immigrants? Is there anything common in India? The answer is that the immigrants who came into India over the last 10 thousand years or so, by their interaction and intermingling created a common culture which can broadly be called the Sanskrit- Urdu culture. This is our culture.
What in the holy hell is Sanskrit-Urdu culture ? :shocked:

Urdu has been in the Indian subcontinent for about 650-700 years now with a minimal impact on the Indian culture. Lumping it with Sanskrit is in itself a great mistake. He says Sanskrit-Urdu culture and then he himself admits 70% of vocabulary in Urdu is from Sanskrit !

And what does he mean by "our" culture ? For him born in Allahabad it might be his culture, what does a Southie whose culture was neither influenced much by Sanskrit or Urdu got to do with them ?

As lurker said Sanskrit-Tamil culture would have been a much more precise description of whatever he wanted to say. These two languages formed the real deal with mutual exchanges and influence. Shaivism as said was much more of Tamil/Dravidian origin and Gods like Ram, Krishna were thought to be of sanskrit (north Indian origin) and those ideas spread from one region to another.

Before 1947, all educated people in large parts of India were studying Urdu. It was not the language of Muslims alone. It was the language of Hindus, Muslims, Christians, Sikhs everybody. For instance, in Punjab the Sikhs used to write in Urdu script, it is only after 1947 that they switched over to Gurumukhi script. Before 1947 all they were writing in Urdu even now they know it. So it was the language of all of us.
Bull.

AFAIK Urdu never had much of a traction in South (except Deccan), West or Eastern part of India. It flourished in areas of modern day UP,Bihar,parts of Rajasthan,MP and Haryana under the patronage of the Nawabs and only people from those parts studied that language. Infact it was not Urdu, rather Persian, which was considered the language of the high class - the poets,aristocrats and royalty.And I strongly doubt the Sikh part he said. For Sikhs, Gurmukhi is a part of their religious identity (I think GGS was written in Gurmukhi only) and it was patronized by the Sikh royalty long before partition of independence. And another nitpick..its not called Urdu script..its called Shahmukhi.


I have studied the history of the whole world, but I have found no ruler in the world like Emperor. He was far ahead of his times. In the 16th Century Akbar proclaimed the doctrine of Suleh-e-kul which means universal toleration of all religions.
Such arrogance.

He has studied history of whole world ? And no emperor like Akbar.? What a load of crap. Did he even know that this one-of-a-kind emperor slaughtered 30000 Rajput civilians in Chittor after conquering them ?.

Religious tolerance was not proclaimed explicity in India before the Islamic invasions...because there was no need for it in the first place. The kings in those days rarely indulged in persecution of other religions and it was common to see kings patronizing all three faiths - Hinduism,Jainism and Buddhism simultaneously.

Does this chap even know of the existence of great kings like Karikalan, Raja Raja Cholan, Mamallan Narasimhan who would put Akbar to shame in any given field. And I've not even brought in kings like Samudragupta, Chandragupta Maurya, Ashoka etc in this.

The running joke is there were only two followers of Din-e-lahi...Akbar and Birbal. Birbal because Akbar followed it. It was just a mish-mash of all the available faiths at that time without a serious philosophical/spiritual backing behind it.


If they broke temples everyday there would be a revolt or turmoil which no ruler wants. Just use your common sense, if you are a Muslim ruler in an area where 80-90% population is Hindu would you break temples? You would like to have a jolly good time enjoy life as a king, you would not like everyday revolts and turmoil.Tipu Sultan used to give annual grants to 156 Hindu Temples,
Disingenuity at best.

80-90% of the population were never one homogenous block to resist any move. The truth is they were hopelessly divided into clans, castes,different vassal states with internecine feuds that was the prime reason for India getting conquered in the first place. Also the soldiery of the Mughals was dominated by Afghans,other pashtuns,central asian mercenaries and local muslims that a revolt in the ranks was never a serious threat.

Regarding the bolded part, I dare him to come to Kerala and repeat what he just said. That Tipu was good to Hindus.



Now, just imagine what mischief has been done. Deliberately our history books have been falsified so that the mind of a child at an impressionable age is poisoned so that he should start hating Muslims in India and in Pakistan he should start hating Hindus. The poison put in the mind of an impressionable age is very difficult to remove at a later age. All our history books have been falsified in this manner.
Mischief was done ? Yes. But not in the way MK seems to insinuate. Many atrocities that were committed during the Islamic/European conquest of India has been whitewashed for the sake of "communal harmony". One example is there is no mention in any of our history books about the Inquisition in Goa by the Portuguese. While we read about the sacking of the Somnath Mandir, we dont see Kashi,Mathura or Ayodhya temples being sacked. Another example.

And contrary to what he says , Aurangazeb is not exactly portrayed as a zealot (which he exactly was). Shahjahan and Jahangir are portrayed as some luminaries , which they most certainly are not.

The medieval history - Delhi sultanates and Mughal Empire stretch for about 3 chapters in history books (one I studied), while the Maurya,Gupta empires under whose period India saw much advancement in literature,science are contained into half a chapter..

Moreover the Marathas get half a chapter and there is only a passing mention about the Sikh empire. The less said about the Chera,Chola,Pallava,Pandya kingdoms - which are actually our history - the better. We, who should be studying about it the most, actually study the least about that.

yeah its time to rewrite our history books for the following blunders.


It is time we re-write our History books and show that in fact upto 1857 there was no communal problem at all in India.
:bs:
 
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Mad Indian

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Which moron wrote that Article, If i see him I will punch him in the face.... All the Dravidian languages are completely different from the Sanskrit... This is the reason many dont trust the Northies here in South.... I had to fight with my fellow statesman about this issue, seems like he is right all along

P.S: Not against the one who posted it, but the Frigging moron who even said these things....
 

KS

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Which moron wrote that Article, If i see him I will punch him in the face.... All the Dravidian languages are completely different from the Sanskrit... This is the reason many dont trust the Northies here in South.... I had to fight with my fellow statesman about this issue, seems like he is right all along

P.S: Not against the one who posted it, but the Frigging moron who even said these things....
Mate....there is definitely an influence of Sanskrit on the four southern languages..It is only the degree to which it influences differs.

Malayalam is most sanskritized of the four southern languages and Tamil is the least. Telugu and Kannad come inbetween.
 

Mad Indian

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Mate....there is definitely an influence of Sanskrit on the four southern languages..It is only the degree to which it influences differs.

Malayalam is most sanskritized of the four southern languages and Tamil is the least. Telugu and Kannad come inbetween.
Mate I respect Sanskrit all right but tying down Tamil to a Sanskrit Origin is stupid... It is a Dravidian Language and Hinduism is a mix of Dravidian(more oriented to Shaivism) and Aryan(more oriented towards Vaishnavism) Cultures .... Will you say German has French Origin just because it has a few words from French....
 

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After reading his article, I am more convinced that lawyers or judges should not be let anywhere outside their court rooms and especially into history lectures. Such generalizations and inaccuracies.



India =/= North America.

Main reason : What happened in North America was , in no uncertain terms, an ethnic cleansing of the local population by outsiders using all forces at their disposal. That was no immigration dammit. That was plain genocide.

On the contrary what happened in the Indian subcontinent is :

first of all is not clear as there is no definitive conclusion reached on it yet. What exists are various hypothesis by various anthropologists with each having their own explanations, strong points and weaknesses.

And again comparing/equating what happens gradually over many thousands of years with small groups of moving in search of pasture,water and fertile soil, settling down and gradually assimilating themselves into the local society with no difference visible with invasions/conquests that happened over a relatively short span of time is a dumb thing to do.





AIT..? Seriously ?




Please some one tell him that his 'beliefs' actually dont stand upto scientific scrutiny. In Indian context, Aryan and Dravidian are linguistic terms and nothing to do with ethnicity.

The so-called Aryans and Dravidian races of India are members of the same Mediterranean branch of the Caucasian race, which prevailed in the ancient civilizations of Egypt and Sumeria and is still the main group in the Mediterranean area, North Africa, and the Middle East. The Caucasian race is not simply white but also contains dark skinned types. Skin color and race is another nineteenth century idea that has been recently discarded.

Darker skin color is commonly found in peoples living in more southern regions and appears as an adjustment mechanism to hotter climates and greater sunshine. For example southern Europeans are darker in skin color than northern Europeans, though they are not a different race because of this. This suggests that the Dravidian branch of the Mediterranean race must have lived in South India for some thousands of years to make this adjustment, and the same thing could be said of the people of North India as well if we would make them originally light-skinned invaders from the north.


Solid Evidence Debunking Aryan Invasion





What in the holy hell is Sanskrit-Urdu culture ? :shocked:

Urdu has been in the Indian subcontinent for about 650-700 years now with a minimal impact on the Indian culture. Lumping it with Sanskrit is in itself a great mistake. He says Sanskrit-Urdu culture and then he himself admits 70% of vocabulary in Urdu is from Sanskrit !

And what does he mean by "our" culture ? For him born in Allahabad it might be his culture, what does a Southie whose culture was neither influenced much by Sanskrit or Urdu got to do with them ?

As lurker said Sanskrit-Tamil culture would have been a much more precise description of whatever he wanted to say. These two languages formed the real deal with mutual exchanges and influence. Shaivism as said was much more of Tamil/Dravidian origin and Gods like Ram, Krishna were thought to be of sanskrit (north Indian origin) and those ideas spread from one region to another.



Bull.

AFAIK Urdu never had much of a traction in South (except Deccan), West or Eastern part of India. It flourished in areas of modern day UP,Bihar,parts of Rajasthan,MP and Haryana under the patronage of the Nawabs and only people from those parts studied that language. Infact it was not Urdu, rather Persian, which was considered the language of the high class - the poets,aristocrats and royalty.And I strongly doubt the Sikh part he said. For Sikhs, Gurmukhi is a part of their religious identity (I think GGS was written in Gurmukhi only) and it was patronized by the Sikh royalty long before partition of independence. And another nitpick..its not called Urdu script..its called Shahmukhi.




Such arrogance.

He has studied history of whole world ? And no emperor like Akbar.? What a load of crap. Did he even know that this one-of-a-kind emperor slaughtered 30000 Rajput civilians in Chittor after conquering them ?.

Religious tolerance was not proclaimed explicity in India before the Islamic invasions...because there was no need for it in the first place. The kings in those days rarely indulged in persecution of other religions and it was common to see kings patronizing all three faiths - Hinduism,Jainism and Buddhism simultaneously.

Does this chap even know of the existence of great kings like Karikalan, Raja Raja Cholan, Mamallan Narasimhan who would put Akbar to shame in any given field. And I've not even brought in kings like Samudragupta, Chandragupta Maurya, Ashoka etc in this.

The running joke is there were only two followers of Din-e-lahi...Akbar and Birbal. Birbal because Akbar followed it. It was just a mish-mash of all the available faiths at that time without a serious philosophical/spiritual backing behind it.




Disingenuity at best.

80-90% of the population were never one homogenous block to resist any move. The truth is they were hopelessly divided into clans, castes,different vassal states with internecine feuds that was the prime reason for India getting conquered in the first place. Also the soldiery of the Mughals was dominated by Afghans,other pashtuns,central asian mercenaries and local muslims that a revolt in the ranks was never a serious threat.

Regarding the bolded part, I dare him to come to Kerala and repeat what he just said. That Tipu was good to Hindus.





Mischief was done ? Yes. But not in the way MK seems to insinuate. Many atrocities that were committed during the Islamic/European conquest of India has been whitewashed for the sake of "communal harmony". One example is there is no mention in any of our history books about the Inquisition in Goa by the Portuguese. While we read about the sacking of the Somnath Mandir, we dont see Kashi,Mathura or Ayodhya temples being sacked. Another example.

And contrary to what he says , Aurangazeb is not exactly portrayed as a zealot (which he exactly was). Shahjahan and Jahangir are portrayed as some luminaries , which they most certainly are not.

The medieval history - Delhi sultanates and Mughal Empire stretch for about 3 chapters in history books (one I studied), while the Maurya,Gupta empires under whose period India saw much advancement in literature,science are contained into half a chapter..

Moreover the Marathas get half a chapter and there is only a passing mention about the Sikh empire. The less said about the Chera,Chola,Pallava,Pandya kingdoms - which are actually our history - the better. We, who should be studying about it the most, actually study the least about that.

yeah its time to rewrite our history books for the following blunders.




:bs:
:hail::hail::hail::hail:
 

civfanatic

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Nice thread, will give a proper reply once I get the time and double-check my sources.

I have some controversial theories myself!


karthicsri said:
Does this chap even know of the existence of great kings like Karikalan, Raja Raja Cholan, Mamallan Narasimhan who would put Akbar to shame in any given field. And I've not even brought in kings like Samudragupta, Chandragupta Maurya, Ashoka etc in this.
Agree with Ashoka, leave aside the rest. They were all petty monarchs with no vision. At least Akbar had a vision for the future of India. He was not successful with his vision but that is more the fault of his incompetent successors than himself.
 

mayfair

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Agree with Ashoka, leave aside the rest. They were all petty monarchs with no vision. At least Akbar had a vision for the future of India. He was not successful with his vision but that is more the fault of his incompetent successors than himself.
Mohd. Bin Tughlak had far more vision than Akbar.
 

mayfair

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Can you elaborate?
Quite a few things actually- he for one was actually educated, his experiments with coinage and fractionalisation are well documented; he attempted novel administrative measures that were far ahead of their time. Of course he was a religious zealot and perhaps far less pragmatic than Akbar, which explains the ill thought decision to shift the capital to Devgiri and the loss of his kingdom.

My point was that Akbar was no less petty than the kings you denounced as petty and shortsighted. He was perhaps far more sneaky about it. His successors were bigots with misplaced delusions of grandeur (Jahangir, Shah Jahan) or religious fanaticism (Aurangzeb).

I if not for suppose Dara Shikoh being defeated and murdered by his blood-thirsty brother, things may have turned out to be different.
 

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