Manohar Parrikar clears proposal to acquire 814 artillery guns for IA

[sayareakd]

Re: Manohar Parrikar clears proposal to acquire 814 artillery guns for

What has happened to the big "self propelled "lobby" of the forum??

dont know about that, i think the mess of artillery guns is make by the artillery officers and Indian army.

 

[Bhadra]

Re: Manohar Parrikar clears proposal to acquire 814 artillery guns for

dont know about that, i think the mess of artillery guns is make by the artillery officers and Indian army.

Again a baseless accusatory comments and Army bashing ..... ??

Both Mounted Gun System and Self Propelled (Tracked or Wheeled) are essentially the same - SELF PROPELLED. They move on their own power and do not rely on a Field Artillery Tractor (FAT).

MGS is a more modern term as SP howitzer is a term which has been used for Tracked guns which are expected to keep pace with armored columns. Where Towed Guns would otherwise have a problem going.

Coming to why have SP Tracked, Wheeled and MGS - I think this all depends on terrain and war-fighting philosophy. My understanding of evolution of MGS in western armies is because requirement of enhanced mobility for their guns as well as expeditionary commitments of these nations. Plus, a need to reduce the logistic foot-print. And only very few nations in Europe (like Germany) now have any decent size mechanized force. So, overall requirement for SP-Tracked is limited.

And while a SP Arty brings attributes like mobility and protection for the crews, it is not an ideal solution. For one, they're too heavy to permit easy deployment across the globe. And second, they're an over-kill.

MGS is a more ideal solution in terms of logistic foot-print and ease of deployment. Not to mention the cost.

In Indian case, MGS fills role between SP-Tracked/Wheeled and Towed Guns. IA requires 100 SP-Tracked and 180 SP Wheeled guns.

While bulk of SP-Tracked/Wheeled are expected to be with armor heavy formations like armored divisions, MGS gives flexibility to fill out other armor centric formations like RAPID and (I) Armor Brigades. Not to forget Artillery Divisions. The former would've otherwise required investment in more expensive SP-Tracked platforms.

Further, MGS and Towed Guns allows IA to mix and match these in a given formation depending on requirement of terrain and role.

@rohitvats .... Bharat Rakshak • View topic - Artillery Discussion Thread

 

[Singh]

Re: Manohar Parrikar clears proposal to acquire 814 artillery guns for

Sir,first of all we have to admit the fact that Pakistani Army has built an impressive artillery corp in the last 20 years.They have got nearly 800+ 155 mm towed and SPH(M-109 Paladin) deployed all along the western sector.Plus they have around 1000 or so Type-54,Type-59 and Type-60 field guns.So in order to counter such a massive and impressive enemy artillery we have to deploy at least equal amount of effective field guns and SPHs for an effective counter battery shelling.But unfortunately at this very moment we don't have any modern 155 mm artillery,the only thing that we have in decent numbers are the M-46 and the indigenous 105 mm Indian Field guns and Light Field Guns and hence we have deployed close to 2000 M-46 and I.F.G. along the western border.In the present scenario we are in no position to successfully implement any C.S.D. style doctrine due to the lack of good artillery guns hence we have deployed our artillery guns in defensive positions all along the western border as of now.

Please don't sir me saar.

I think it would be nice if you could start a thread on Pak Army's Arty. Forumers here are so derisive of Pakistan that we tend to gloss over their "achievements".

The point I was trying to make was :

Most of our skirmishes in the recent past have been along LoC and not IB. But in the western sector, it would not be a flashpoint but a war.

And our war startegy is of cold start / atleast we will be in an offensive position so we will need mobile/towed/air liftable arty something like M777/Pegasus or SPH (tracked/wheeled) to provide support.

Am I right in thinking this ?

 

[Bhadra]

Re: Manohar Parrikar clears proposal to acquire 814 artillery guns for

Sir,first of all we have to admit the fact that Pakistani Army has built an impressive artillery corp in the last 20 years.They have got nearly 800+ 155 mm towed and SPH(M-109 Paladin) deployed all along the western sector.Plus they have around 1000 or so Type-54,Type-59 and Type-60 field guns.So in order to counter such a massive and impressive enemy artillery we have to deploy at least equal amount of effective field guns and SPHs for an effective counter battery shelling.But unfortunately at this very moment we don't have any modern 155 mm artillery,the only thing that we have in decent numbers are the M-46 and the indigenous 105 mm Indian Field guns and Light Field Guns and hence we have deployed close to 2000 M-46 and I.F.G. along the western border.In the present scenario we are in no position to successfully implement any C.S.D. style doctrine due to the lack of good artillery guns hence we have deployed our artillery guns in defensive positions all along the western border as of now.

The situation is not that bad either .... if I think correctly....

When was the last war won by Artillary ?

Not that it is not very important ..... but Indian army has never been subdued due to Paki Army artillery superiority ....

What they have is inferior 155 with lesser ranges..

 

[JBH22]

Re: Manohar Parrikar clears proposal to acquire 814 artillery guns for

The situation is not that bad either .... if I think correctly....

When was the last war won by Artillary ?

Not that it is not very important ..... but Indian army has never been subdued due to Paki Army artillery superiority ....

What they have is inferior 155 with lesser ranges..

Wrong in 1965 war Pakistani artillery took a toll on Indian army. For Kargil without MLRS BM-21 and Bofors Gun recapturing the mountains would have been impossible for the infantry.

Artillery is key to CSD and that too self propelled one to keep up with mechanised and motorised forces.

 

[Bhadra]

Re: Manohar Parrikar clears proposal to acquire 814 artillery guns for

Wrong in 1965 war Pakistani artillery took a toll on Indian army. For Kargil without MLRS BM-21 and Bofors Gun recapturing the mountains would have been impossible for the infantry.

Artillery is key to CSD and that too self propelled one to keep up with mechanised and motorised forces.

How far inside will you go, in your CSD ?

That may answer all your questions .....

Mod Edit: words shuffled for better understanding

 

[sgarg]

Re: Manohar Parrikar clears proposal to acquire 814 artillery guns for

Let us use our friend Wikipedia. Pakistani Army Artillery:

Self Propelled:

M110 (SP - 203mm) - 60
M109 (SP - 155mm) - 265
Norinco SH1 - (SP - 155mm) - 90
MLRS - A100E (300mm) - 42
KRL-122 (122mm) - 40
Type 83 (122mm) - 52

Towed Artillery:

M115 (203mm) - 28
Panter (155mm) - 72
M198 (155mm) - 148
M144 (155mm) - 144
M59 (155mm) - 30
Type 59 (130mm) - 410
Type 54 (122mm) - 490
Type 60 (122mm) - 200
M56 (105mm) - 113
D-30 (122mm) - 143
Oto Melara (105mm) - 50
M101 (105mm) - 250
Type 56 (85mm) - 200
25 pounder - 1000

The above almost seems like United Nations of Artillery. Not sure how much of it is maintainable.

 

[Singh]

Re: Manohar Parrikar clears proposal to acquire 814 artillery guns for

How far will you inside in your CSD ?

That may answer all your questions .....

Explain saar.

 

[sgarg]

Re: Manohar Parrikar clears proposal to acquire 814 artillery guns for

If I count 203mm and 155mm guns, PA has 415 self-propelled guns and 422 towed guns.

India may have about 600+ towed 155mm guns (Bofors and upgraded M-46). India has 100 self propelled Catapult guns. India may also have 1000+ M-46 (130mm) and 2000+ IFG (105mm) in addition.

The situation does not seem too bad except the self propelled part. GOI is tackling it two ways - ordering new truck mounted guns and upgrading 1000+ M-46 to 155mm caliber. Also Dhanush towed guns have been ordered.

 

[Hari Sud]

Re: Manohar Parrikar clears proposal to acquire 814 artillery guns for

To and fro discussions between members trying to shoot down each other's views is useless.

To the smart ones, if you wish to do research, then come up with a comparative study of Denel, BAE, French, Soltam (Israel), Austrian, Ruag guns. Suggest which gun is likely to make it into the final two.

Give your suggestions, which local company (s) will finally get the Army's nod.

 

[sgarg]

Re: Manohar Parrikar clears proposal to acquire 814 artillery guns for

My money is on a. Tata-Denel and b. Bharat Forge-Elbit ATMOS. Would like to see a split order between the two.

 

[Neil]

Re: Manohar Parrikar clears proposal to acquire 814 artillery guns for

My money is on a. Tata-Denel and b. Bharat Forge-Elbit ATMOS. Would like to see a split order between the two.

why create logistical nightmare for IA?

 

[sgarg]

Re: Manohar Parrikar clears proposal to acquire 814 artillery guns for

why create logistical nightmare for IA?

Why? Same guns can also be made as towed artillery or mounted on a tracked platform. It is unlikely the total requirement of 3000+ guns will come from a single vendor.

 

[Hari Sud]

Re: Manohar Parrikar clears proposal to acquire 814 artillery guns for

Do not give a casual answer. Think!!!

Come to a logical conclusion. Give reasons.

Consider yourself in a corporate office. You have this assignment and your boss wants to know which dotted line he should sign and why. After all it is $2.5 billion decision.

 

[Neil]

Re: Manohar Parrikar clears proposal to acquire 814 artillery guns for

Why? Same guns can also be made as towed artillery or mounted on a tracked platform. It is unlikely the total requirement of 3000+ guns will come from a single vendor.

well... there is a possibility. If we get ToT-which we are- why not use the same gun for both towed and tracked instead of building up logistical problems IA will have to go through.

anyways... I'm not saying IA wont... I just dont understand why!!

 

[sgarg]

Re: Manohar Parrikar clears proposal to acquire 814 artillery guns for

@Neil, of all the Indian private companies, Tata and Bharat Forge are best suited to build artillery. Tata has the complete value chain in related technologies and has considerable spare capacity at present. I suspect Tata is capable of building 1000 artillery units per year if government gives such an order.

Bharat Forge is the best run private company that has the expertise and interest in building artillery systems. Of course Bharat Forge does not have the scale of Tata, but can still churn out good numbers.

TOT is not a problem. These two companies have everything to absorb the technology and built fully local guns.

 

[mikhail]

Re: Manohar Parrikar clears proposal to acquire 814 artillery guns for

The situation is not that bad either .... if I think correctly....

When was the last war won by Artillary ?

Not that it is not very important ..... but Indian army has never been subdued due to Paki Army artillery superiority ....

What they have is inferior 155 with lesser ranges..

Sir,i think artillery does play an important role in any C.S.D. style Blitzkrieg operation.We have to remember that the most important feature of artillery is to give direct/indirect infantry support and cover fire.Now most of the Indian field artillery lacks a decent automated ballistic coputer(other than the FH-77 which has a 2nd generation one) and hence they have to be fired manually each time decreasing their accuracy and effectiveness in case of precision bombing.Plus we have got a serious gap in the SPH category which means most of our artillery(majority of whom are towed ones) lacks the mobility that will hamper our operational capability in case of implementing a C.S.D. style operation.Pakistan on the other hand,has got an impressive arsenal of SPH which includes the reliable and battle proven M-109A2 and M-109A5 howitzers which are modern upgraded versions of the Paladin and aorund 60 M-110A2 203 mm howitzers which are quite deadly in infantry support role.Plus they also have around 100 Norinco made SH-1 155 mm SPH which has a max. range of around 53 kms using RAP ammunition which will become a major headache for the Indian Army in case of a future all out offensive.The IAF can't provide an all out ground support role in that case as it suffers from the lack of a dedicated sub-sonic CAS aircraft like the A-10 "warthog" or Su-25 "Toad".So at present our Artillery Corp is serious lagging behind their Pakistani counterpart in most of the areas.But once we induct these 814 mounted systems the balance of power will once again shift in our favor as far as artillery is concerned by right now we are in no position to successfully implement any C.S.D. style blitkrieg.

 

[Neil]

Re: Manohar Parrikar clears proposal to acquire 814 artillery guns for

@Neil, of all the Indian private companies, Tata and Bharat Forge are best suited to build artillery. Tata has the complete value chain in related technologies and has considerable spare capacity at present. I suspect Tata is capable of building 1000 artillery units per year if government gives such an order.

Bharat Forge is the best run private company that has the expertise and interest in building artillery systems. Of course Bharat Forge does not have the scale of Tata, but can still churn out good numbers.

TOT is not a problem. These two companies have everything to absorb the technology and built fully local guns.

there is no company on earth that can dole out 1000 guns a year.

Is there a possibility that if anyone of the company looses out they can still be in the game by encouraging outsourcing

eg. say TAT wins the order BF can provide metallurgy related help and so on... does MoD forbids such agreement can be debated.

 

[mikhail]

Re: Manohar Parrikar clears proposal to acquire 814 artillery guns for

Please don't sir me saar.

I think it would be nice if you could start a thread on Pak Army's Arty. Forumers here are so derisive of Pakistan that we tend to gloss over their "achievements".

The point I was trying to make was :

Most of our skirmishes in the recent past have been along LoC and not IB. But in the western sector, it would not be a flashpoint but a war.

And our war startegy is of cold start / atleast we will be in an offensive position so we will need mobile/towed/air liftable arty something like M777/Pegasus or SPH (tracked/wheeled) to provide support.

Am I right in thinking this ?

Sir,i would love to create a thread on Pakistani Artillery capability but right now i am a bit busy because of my upcoming Bengal Civil Service exam which is in the middle of the next month.Once that's over i will definitely create that thread.
Now the most important factor in case of a C.S.D. style operation is mobility and for that the need of the hour is for a mounted/SPH system.The current Indian arsenal is lacking in mobility as the majority of the field artillery are towed.A M-777 howitzer/SLWH Pegasus if inducted in sufficient nos. will definitely be a game changer for us but that seems to be a distant probability in the present scenario because of the "Make in India" policy of this new Govt.The only Ultra Light Howitzer that is being made by an Indian Company at present is the Kalyani Ultra Light Long Range Howitzer which is under development and will be operational within the next 2 years.I guess until then the I.A. has to wait for it's quest of an air lift ultra light gun.In the mean time if we manage to finalize the deal for the mounted artillery system then it'll be a huge boost for our Artillery Corp.These mounted guns will literally shift the balance of power in our favor once they get inducted in sufficient no. and the advantage of having a truck mounted system is that it offers a superior mobility as against a tracked SPH,which means we can successfully negate the M-109 factor of the Pakistani Army in case of any future ground operation.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Re: Manohar Parrikar clears proposal to acquire 814 artillery guns for

My Money on Old and faithful 105mm and 155mm Dhanush ..

This will take time, Not to mention years of trails in various weathers by Maker as well as User ..