Manohar Parrikar clears proposal to acquire 814 artillery guns for IA

[Dharmateja]

Manohar Parrikar clears proposal to acquire 814 artillery guns for Rs 15,750 crore for Indian Army

In a fresh bid to break the Bofors jinx, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar on Saturday cleared proposal to acquire 814 artillery guns for Rs 15,750 crore while deferring decision on joint bid by Tata Sons and Airbus to replace IAF's Avro transport fleet and also procurement of 106 Swiss Pilatus basic trainer aircraft. The artillery guns would be procured as per the "Buy and Make" procedure introduced last year under which 100 such guns would be bought off the shelf while 714 would be made in India. The Indian Army has not acquired artillery guns in the past three decades after the Bofors scam surfaced in 1986. Sources said at least six tenders have been issued so far but were cancelled due to a number of reasons including blacklisting and single vendor scenario. The plans to acquire such guns were first mooted under Army's Field Artillery Rationalisation Plan (FARP) formulated in 1999. The decisions were taken after Parrikar chaired his maiden meeting of the Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) here this morning. Defence Ministry sources said the DAC has cleared the long pending proposal to acquire 814 mounted guns of 155mm/52 calibre.

Sources said a fresh Request for Proposal (RFP) would be issued for the procurement which will be open to public as well as private companies. The Indian private companies that are likely to make a bid for this project include L&T, TATA and Bharat Forge. "The Indian company, when selected, will be the lead partner now. They can either show their ability to make the product completely here or tie-up with a foreign firm and build the guns here," a source said. Talking about the multi-crore joint bid by Tata Sons and European firm Airbus to manufacture 56 transport aircraft to replace the Avro fleet of the Indian Air Force (IAF), sources said the DAC has sought additional information. A similar decision was also taken on the proposal to acquire an additional 106 Swiss Pilatus basic trainer aircraft for the IAF at an estimated cost of about Rs 8,200 crore. The DAC also approved the revised payment schedule of Rs 7,160 crore for the IAF's Integrated Air Command and Control System which aims to integrate all ground and air censors.

The IAF currently has five sector headquarters (nodes) of communication and the plan is to have five four more besides 10 sub-nodes and up-gradation of the entire system. Parrikar, who comes with an IIT background and has himself being an entrepreneur, stressed that the procurement policy should be fast and transparent. According to the Ministry sources, Parrikar said that the DAC could be held for more than a month and with lesser agenda. As of now, the Ministry is aiming to hold DAC at least once a month. During the discussion on Saturday, the issue of "Make In India" initiative of Prime Minister Narendra Modi also came up. Sources said there would be more discussion on the matter and the effort is to make the entire process more attractive to foreign investors. The DAC, set up in 2001 as part of the post-Kargil reforms in defence sector, approves the long-term integrated perspective plan for the forces, accords acceptance of necessity (AON) to begin acquisition proposals, and has to grant its approval to all major deals through all their important phases.

It also has the power to approve any deviations in an acquisition, and recommends all big purchases for approval of the Cabinet committee on security.

Manohar Parrikar clears proposal to acquire 814 artillery guns for Rs 15,750 crore for Indian Army | Latest News & Updates at Daily News & Analysis

 

[Jacobjm]

Re: Manohar Parrikar clears proposal to acquire 814 artillery guns for

Thanks for sharing this info

 

[JBH22]

Re: Manohar Parrikar clears proposal to acquire 814 artillery guns for

he Indian Army has not acquired artillery guns in the past three decades after the Bofors scam surfaced in 1986. Sources said at least six tenders have been issued so far but were cancelled due to a number of reasons including blacklisting and single vendor scenario.

India is notorious for red tape and this artillery replacement is a main illustration of it.

When the world is at the cusp of major changes India which needs to protect itself and having fought a mini-conventional war like Kargil war it still hesitates to purchase guns for its armed forces.

One thing you got to give to the Chinese they are methodological in their approach while Indians are compulsive debaters in each of their actions.

 

[Hari Sud]

Re: Manohar Parrikar clears proposal to acquire 814 artillery guns for

I believe we have a spoiled bunch of generals and another notoriously inefficient Babus in the Defence Ministry. It looks that the new Defence Minister has fallen victim to the machination of both these entities.

Now the procurement process for artillery guns would begin all over again. It would take three years before recommendation on Bharati, L&T or TATA supplied is made. The difference from this RFP and the previous one is that they have an Indian partner, although the guns are same either BAE or Austrian or Denel etc.

What a counterproductive decision by the Defence Minister when ready made 155/45 caliber Dhanush Howitzer is waiting to be ordered in greater number and Kalyani after transporting Noricum's whole manufacturing operation has been transported to India. They can begin manufacturing in less than a year.

If the spoiled brat of Indian Army is insisting on imported design then somebody should tell them that Dhanush and Kalyani are also imported design.

I believe that Indian Army wants a specific design. This they can have it only after they prove every other gun in the competetion is inferior. Which one is this gun, they have not said yet.

The new Defence Minister can use his authority and retire a few erring generals. Until then this indecision would continue and national security continue to suffer.

 

[sgarg]

Re: Manohar Parrikar clears proposal to acquire 814 artillery guns for

@Hari Sud, Parrikar will ensure Army gets the guns it needs while MOD has to shell out minimum amount of money. The chances of manipulation are very low. The RFP will be out soon. The guns will be made in local factories. There is a good possibility of order to be split between two different companies to make the process faster. If things work out as expected, army may get all these guns in the next five years.

 

[JBH22]

Re: Manohar Parrikar clears proposal to acquire 814 artillery guns for

@Hari Sud, Parrikar will ensure Army gets the guns it needs while MOD has to shell out minimum amount of money. The chances of manipulation are very low. The RFP will be out soon. The guns will be made in local factories. There is a good possibility of order to be split between two different companies to make the process faster. If things work out as expected, army may get all these guns in the next five years.

Nothing can take five years.

What happens if a war break out? Will the 400 odd Bofors save the day for us.

What about training and experience if the hardware is not there?

Its a joke what these people are doing "at times one has to put his foot down and do it", we are the type of people who learn only post event and that too it takes dozen of kicks to grasp the lesson.

Everyone here knows these guns are crucial if India is to fight a war, taking into consideration what is happening this is unbelievable .

 

[sasi]

Re: Manohar Parrikar clears proposal to acquire 814 artillery guns for

Why not mount Dhanush on truck?
So we're going to pay for another IPR and tot!

I am sure no one going to share 52mm barrel tech!
Hey but nuts and bolts tech will be shared!

And they will also share whatever tech in dhanush will be shared with private parter!

10cr for dhanush,more than 20cr for phoren meal. I am sure,it will further go up!

Ps- govt should asked bharat forge to develop 52mm barrel with ofb!

 

[sgarg]

Re: Manohar Parrikar clears proposal to acquire 814 artillery guns for

Nothing can take five years.

Let us hope for the best. 814 is a big order. It will take some time. Think about how little has been done in the past 30 years.

It is not that army has no artillery. This tender is part of artillery modernization.

 

[Zebra]

Re: Manohar Parrikar clears proposal to acquire 814 artillery guns for

I believe we have a spoiled bunch of generals and another notoriously inefficient Babus in the Defence Ministry. It looks that the new Defence Minister has fallen victim to the machination of both these entities.

Now the procurement process for artillery guns would begin all over again. It would take three years before recommendation on Bharati, L&T or TATA supplied is made. The difference from this RFP and the previous one is that they have an Indian partner, although the guns are same either BAE or Austrian or Denel etc.

What a counterproductive decision by the Defence Minister when ready made 155/45 caliber Dhanush Howitzer is waiting to be ordered in greater number and Kalyani after transporting Noricum's whole manufacturing operation has been transported to India. They can begin manufacturing in less than a year.

If the spoiled brat of Indian Army is insisting on imported design then somebody should tell them that Dhanush and Kalyani are also imported design.

I believe that Indian Army wants a specific design. This they can have it only after they prove every other gun in the competetion is inferior. Which one is this gun, they have not said yet.

The new Defence Minister can use his authority and retire a few erring generals. Until then this indecision would continue and national security continue to suffer.

One of them will be better ----> the Caesar (L&T-Nexter- AL) or FH 77BW Archer or TATA-Denel G6.

 

[Hari Sud]

Re: Manohar Parrikar clears proposal to acquire 814 artillery guns for

If I understand from the discussion above and elsewhere, this DAC approval is for wheeled guns 814 155/52 in all. Am I right?

The towed gun order is separate. That is where the Dhanush -144 155/45 of these are being ordered. That order may increase to 400, in case the gun is highly satisfactory.

Both orders are to be filled sooner than later.

The wheeled gun order, at best after all kinds of negotiations and starting to manufacture at a green field site will take 5 years for the first gun to come out (first hundred will be supplied off the shelf in the first year after all negotiations completed). The second order of the towed gun is already here. If I remember correctly one or the other thread said ten guns per year can be produced initially increasing to twenty soon there after. Next five years could see one hundred of these with the army.

Hence, there is no quick turn around. Army will have not too much of artillery in next five years except 300 or so of repaired Bofors guns.

All this indicates is that a wasted last seven years.

 

[Zebra]

Re: Manohar Parrikar clears proposal to acquire 814 artillery guns for

If I am not wrong IA's requirement in 1980s were nearly 1600 guns.

Imagine how much their requirements could be as of 2014!

IMO, the only one way they can achieve some of their targets is split the orders.

So they can get more numbers of guns from different sources at the same time and in short period.

The total numbers from each of supplier will be big enough.

So it won't be logistics issue either, as far as they all can fire most of the ammos which suits these guns.

 

[mikhail]

Re: Manohar Parrikar clears proposal to acquire 814 artillery guns for

If I understand from the discussion above and elsewhere, this DAC approval is for wheeled guns 814 155/52 in all. Am I right?

The towed gun order is separate. That is where the Dhanush -144 155/45 of these are being ordered. That order may increase to 400, in case the gun is highly satisfactory.

Both orders are to be filled sooner than later.

The wheeled gun order, at best after all kinds of negotiations and starting to manufacture at a green field site will take 5 years for the first gun to come out (first hundred will be supplied off the shelf in the first year after all negotiations completed). The second order of the towed gun is already here. If I remember correctly one or the other thread said ten guns per year can be produced initially increasing to twenty soon there after. Next five years could see one hundred of these with the army.

Hence, there is no quick turn around. Army will have not too much of artillery in next five years except 300 or so of repaired Bofors guns.

All this indicates is that a wasted last seven years.

While you are partially correct that India doesn't have a significant no. of 155 mm artillery at this moment save for the 200 or so Bofors FH-77 and another 200 or so upgraded and upgunned 155 mm Metamorphosis you are overlooking the fact that we have got no dearth of field artillery at present.We have 60 regiments(roughly 1200) M-46 130 mm in the Artillery Corp which are more than enough to take care of our western border.Plus we also have around 500-600 D-30 122 mm guns in our arsenal.This alone counts upto 1700-1800 guns.Then we have around 1500-1700 105 mm I.F.G. and around 700 L.F.G.s which are quite effective in case of a counter battery assault.What we need right now is an ultra light howitzer for our Northern and North eastern border.We are facing some serious disadvantage w.r.t. to the PLA in this regard.Currently we have deployed around 400-500 L.F.G.s at the northern sector but these guns are crippled by their limited range which will hamper any significant counter battery assault in that sector.The Kalyani 155 mm Ultra Light Howitzer is the need of the hour as we have already cancelled the M-777 deal with the U.S. So unless we can acquire some ultra light howitzers a.s.a.p. we'll remain at a disadvantageous position at the Northern border.

 

[mikhail]

Re: Manohar Parrikar clears proposal to acquire 814 artillery guns for

If I am not wrong IA's requirement in 1980s were nearly 1600 guns.

Imagine how much their requirements could be as of 2014!

IMO, the only one way they can achieve some of their targets is split the orders.

So they can get more numbers of guns from different sources at the same time and in short period.

The total numbers from each of supplier will be big enough.

So it won't be logistics issue either, as far as they all can fire most of the ammos which suits these guns.

Under the Field Artillery Rationalization Plan,the Indian Army wants to procure around 3,000-4000 155 mm towed,mounted,self propelled,tracked and ultra light guns within the next 10-15 years.This includes This includes purchasing 1580 towed, 814 mounted, 180 self-propelled wheeled, 100 self-propelled tracked and 145 ultra-light 155 mm/52 calibre artillery guns.Now the MoD has approved the proposal to procure 814 truck mounted 155 mm artillery.So that means the next step for the MoD is to approve the procurement paln for the 1600 odd towed artillery which will be split between the 155 mm 45 caliber Dhanush and the 155 mm 52 caliber DRDO artillery gun which is currently in the development phase.The Dhanush will replace the older FH-77 guns and the 52 cal will replace the remaining 60 regiments of M-46 130 mm.

 

[mikhail]

Re: Manohar Parrikar clears proposal to acquire 814 artillery guns for

The likely contenders for this deal:-
1) Nexter Systems teamed with Larsen & Toubro (offering the Caesar)

2)BAE Systems teamed with Mahindra Defence offering the FH-77BW L52 Archer

3)Serbia's Yugoimport SDPR teamed with Punj Lloyd offering the Nora-B52K1

4)Krauss Maffei-Wegmann teamed with Ashok Leyland offering the 22.5-tonne AGM (on a 6 x 6 truck)

5)DENEL Land Systems teamed with TATA Power SED offering a customised version of the T-5-52 Mk2000 Condor

 

[Zebra]

Re: Manohar Parrikar clears proposal to acquire 814 artillery guns for

Under the Field Artillery Rationalization Plan,the Indian Army wants to procure around 3,000-4000 155 mm towed,mounted,self propelled,tracked and ultra light guns within the next 10-15 years.This includes This includes purchasing 1580 towed, 814 mounted, 180 self-propelled wheeled, 100 self-propelled tracked and 145 ultra-light 155 mm/52 calibre artillery guns.Now the MoD has approved the proposal to procure 814 truck mounted 155 mm artillery.So that means the next step for the MoD is to approve the procurement paln for the 1600 odd towed artillery which will be split between the 155 mm 45 caliber Dhanush and the 155 mm 52 caliber DRDO artillery gun which is currently in the development phase.The Dhanush will replace the older FH-77 guns and the 52 cal will replace the remaining 60 regiments of M-46 130 mm.

Sir, first of all the numbers of 3000-4000 guns won't be enough.

On top of it, if they select xyz private sector manufacture then how much guns they can supply without any foreign support and experience. That is also a big question.

If the supplier is any PSU then also their supply rate will be low. How much time they will take to supply 1000 guns!

 

[Zebra]

Re: Manohar Parrikar clears proposal to acquire 814 artillery guns for

@mikhail, they are not interested in fully automated systems. If I am not wrong.

They preferred semi auto guns.

That is why few companies came in with semi auto guns.
@Kunal Biswas

 

[Zebra]

Re: Manohar Parrikar clears proposal to acquire 814 artillery guns for

Nothing can take five years.

What happens if a war break out? Will the 400 odd Bofors save the day for us.

What about training and experience if the hardware is not there?

Its a joke what these people are doing "at times one has to put his foot down and do it", we are the type of people who learn only post event and that too it takes dozen of kicks to grasp the lesson.

Everyone here knows these guns are crucial if India is to fight a war, taking into consideration what is happening this is unbelievable .

Sir, I do agree with you.

But suggest some ways to get new guns faster. If you don't mind.

 

[sgarg]

Re: Manohar Parrikar clears proposal to acquire 814 artillery guns for

Sir, first of all the numbers of 3000-4000 guns won't be enough.

On top of it, if they select xyz private sector manufacture then how much guns they can supply without any foreign support and experience. That is also a big question.

If the supplier is any PSU then also their supply rate will be low. How much time they will take to supply 1000 guns!

Casper, the Indian manufacturing industry is driven by private sector. It is the private sector that has the big plants in engineering space. PSUs are only strong where they have a monopoly status. Look at BHEL where this previously mighty PSU has fallen on hard times.

The private sector can make 10 times the guns that DPSUs can make. They have so much industrial capacity.

See how OFB is struggling with the small Dhanush order. Army will be lucky if it gets 18 Dhanush in this financial year.

Government knows the problems as well as the solutions.

You forget that private sector (specially engineering space) is also built with public money. It is extremely silly and annoying to differentiate between private and public companies.

 

[sgarg]

Re: Manohar Parrikar clears proposal to acquire 814 artillery guns for

@mikhail, they are not interested in fully automated systems. If I am not wrong.

They preferred semi auto guns.

That is why few companies came in with semi auto guns.
@Kunal Biswas

Army has to see how they WILL MAINTAIN the equipment they purchase. More complex systems mean more and expensive maintenance.

How much maintenance facilities does Army has. Can its engineers cope with increased workload? All the factors have to be counted.

The truck mounted gun is the best solution as it gives both mobility and simplicity.

 

[JBH22]

Re: Manohar Parrikar clears proposal to acquire 814 artillery guns for

Sir, I do agree with you.

But suggest some ways to get new guns faster. If you don't mind.

Taking a dig at me won't also help acquire the guns faster.

Perhaps using a bit of common sense in the MoD and army might help faster acquisition instead of getting into the bureaucracy.

If Croatia and Slovakia can build their own artillery system then you surely know we are doing something wrong. Now this craze for tender process is mind boggling so much that for the last decade correct me if i'm wrong its nearly 3 times these systems have been put on trial.

If you have the results of the past trials then MOD and Army knows which system suits our requirement then why need to restart the damn process.