Maitri SR-SAM

pmaitra

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Re: Rs 30,000 cr India-France missile development plan in troubled wat

NEW DELHI: An India-France proposed joint venture expected to be worth around Rs 30,000 crore to develop short range air defence missiles seems to have run into rough weather as Indian Air Force feels that its requirements could be met by indigenous Akash surface-to-air missile weapon system.
Folks, this is a favourable news.

At least some military hardware meets the requirements of our Air Force, and that we no longer need to bring in a foreign power to collaborate with us. I see Indian indigenous military hardware development maturing.

This makes me happy.
 

pmaitra

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Re: Rs 30,000 cr India-France missile development plan in troubled wat

I am not sure if it a good news, but India do need a SR SAM to provide cover for mobile Armored column where moving Akash SAM may not be good choice...
Akash SAM sits on various mobile platforms.







 

kseeker

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Re: Rs 30,000 cr India-France missile development plan in troubled wat

Folks, this is a favourable news.

At least some military hardware meets the requirements of our Air Force, and that we no longer need to bring in a foreign power to collaborate with us. I see Indian indigenous military hardware development maturing.

This makes me happy.
Absolutely.

IAF endorsement itself is enough to prove that, Akash weapon system has a world class standard.
 

Jagdish58

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IAF not keen on 30,000Cr MAITRI SAM project

Air Force Not Keen on Rs 30,000 Crore Indo-French Missile Deal: Sources - NDTV

New Delhi: An Indo-French proposed joint venture expected to be worth around Rs. 30,000 crore to develop short range air defence missiles seems to have run into rough weather as the Indian Air Force feels that its requirements could be met by indigenous Akash surface-to-air missile weapon system.

The proposed joint venture is planned between DRDO and the French missile manufacturer MBDA under which they were planning to produce short-range surface-to-air missile (SR-SAM) systems for the Indian Air Force for the Maitri programme.

The Akash air defence missile system has already been developed by the DRDO indigenously and its development trials were completed successfully by the agency in Odisha recently.

The SR-SAM is also planned to be a project in the same class, highly placed sources said in New Delhi.

The IAF feels that when the indigenous system meets the requirements of the force, then there is no requirement for importing or co-developing a similar system, they said.

As per the proposed SR-SAM project, the IAF had to induct 49 Missile Firing Units (MFUs) of the co-developed missiles.

The IAF has already placed orders for eight squadrons of the Akash surface-to-air missile and it would require to place orders for another 25 squadrons of the weapon systems to meet its complete requirement of air defence missiles of this range, the sources said.

The induction would also save a lot of foreign exchange and help in expanding the indigenous missile production industry in view of the large orders to be placed, they said.

The negotiations for the SR-SAM project were started in 2007-08 and it was discussed in detail in parleys between the Indian and French government at highest levels during visits by senior dignitaries to each other's country.

During talks between French President Francois Hollande and the then Prime Minister Manmohan Singh in January 2013, the two sides had stated that negotiations for finalisation of the joint development programme have been concluded.

The indigenously developed Akash missile, with a 27-km range and an effective ceiling of 15 km, was recently test fired from Integrated Test Range in Balasore district in Odisha.

The Akash air defence weapon system has been designed, developed and led to production by DRDO for defending and protecting important assets of the country from penetrating aerial attacks.

The missile is planned to be inducted in to the Army and the Air Force.

It was developed by the DRDO as part of the integrated missile development programme under which Agni, Prithvi, Trishul and Nag missile systems were to be developed.
 

pmaitra

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Re: Rs 30,000 cr India-France missile development plan in troubled wat

Threads merged.
 

Twinblade

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Re: Rs 30,000 cr India-France missile development plan in troubled wat

Folks, this is a favourable news.
Good news for indigenous defence sector :thumb:
Bad news for indigenous defence sector, because if Maitri project goes down, Army and Navy will go for outright imports.

The Indian Navy will keep the project alive. They need a replacement for Barak-1 which is becoming obselete.
Airforce had the least requirement for Trishul project as well. When Army purchased SpyDer and Navy purchase Barak-1, the Airforce backed off it's need for Trishul. Maitri, is Trishul project reborn, as usual, Army and Navy have a more urgent requirement for QR-SAM and Anti Sea Skimmer SAM than Airforce has for SR-SAM.
 
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p2prada

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Re: Rs 30,000 cr India-France missile development plan in troubled wat

The air force has no real need for a QRSAM. But Maitri itself is required by the other wings. Or else they will continue importing.

The navy may end up switching to CAMM-M. The army may buy more SPYDERS.
 

Sea Eagle

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Re: Rs 30,000 cr India-France missile development plan in troubled wat

The navy may end up switching to CAMM-M. The army may buy more SPYDERS.
The navy will buy the Russian 9M100 if the Maitri Project is dropped
 

Sea Eagle

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Re: Rs 30,000 cr India-France missile development plan in troubled wat

Airforce had the least requirement for Trishul project as well. When Army purchased SpyDer and Navy purchase Barak-1, the Airforce backed off it's need for Trishul. Maitri, is Trishul project reborn, as usual, Army and Navy have a more urgent requirement for QR-SAM and Anti Sea Skimmer SAM than Airforce has for SR-SAM.
Navy initiates procurement of SR-SAM. They want an open competition
Thum! Kaun Aata Hai?: Navy Initiates Procurement of Short Range Surface-to-Air Missile (SRSAM) System for Naval Surface Platform: IDP Exclusive!
 

arnabmit

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Maitri was meant to be a Tri-Service QR-SR-SAM.

Requirement in order of importance is: Navy>Army>Air Force

Main reason for the JV was the seeker from MBDA, with Indian control and propulsion.

However with the success of the MMW radar in Astra (now being ported to NAG) we might not need the JV any more.

Astra Mk1 (40km range at sea level) based SAM with ECCM could very well be in or above the same class as MBDA CAMM.

Later Astra Mk2 (80km range at sea level) based SAM can be also developed to replace Akash Mk1 (by then Akash Mk2 would have come).

If I have not mistaken currently our seeker/guidance technology maturity stands thus:
INS - Mature
GPS - Mature
MMW - Mid-way
IIR - Lacking
Laser - Lacking
 

p2prada

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Maitri was meant to be a Tri-Service QR-SR-SAM.

Requirement in order of importance is: Navy>Army>Air Force

Main reason for the JV was the seeker from MBDA, with Indian control and propulsion.

However with the success of the MMW radar in Astra (now being ported to NAG) we might not need the JV any more.

Astra Mk1 (40km range at sea level) based SAM with ECCM could very well be in or above the same class as MBDA CAMM.

Later Astra Mk2 (80km range at sea level) based SAM can be also developed to replace Akash Mk1 (by then Akash Mk2 would have come).

If I have not mistaken currently our seeker/guidance technology maturity stands thus:
INS - Mature
GPS - Mature
MMW - Mid-way
IIR - Lacking
Laser - Lacking
Astra has an X band seeker, not MMW.
 

arnabmit

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I always get confused there. What is the operational difference between L/S/D/X band radars? Pros & Cons?

Also, can you tell us where is India's technology maturity in Electro-Optical seekers?

Astra has an X band seeker, not MMW.
 

p2prada

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I always get confused there. What is the operational difference between L/S/D/X band radars? Pros & Cons?
L band is 1-2 GHz
S band is 2-4 GHz
C band is 4-8 GHz
X band is 8-12 GHz
D band is the same as L band.

L, S, C, X, Ku, K etc are all IEEE specified bands while A, B, C, D, E etc are all NATO specific bands. In India we refer to the IEEE specifications while NATO uses their own. It's like Km and Miles. Most of the world refers to the IEEE band. You should be careful when you see C, K and L band from IEEE and C, K and L band from NATO. They have different values.

When it comes to aircraft, L band and S band are used for volume search and long range surveillance. These are the primary radars on AWACS and ships.

C band is also used for long range surveillance but can attenuate in the atmosphere so is not used as much. S and C band radars are used by air traffic controllers, along with L band.

X band is used for cueing missiles to targets. It helps generate a firing solution. All other bands above X can be used for the same. But as you go higher, you will need greater power to do the same. MMW is the last band in the radio spectrum.

The pros and cons are specific to the type of target. Large targets are better seen using L band, that's why they say stealth aircraft can be detected using even lower frequencies in the lower bands. But such bands do not provide high accuracy and are quite useless when it comes to guiding a missile to the target since they have a greater chances at missing.

Small targets are tracked better using higher bands like X, K etc. But due to their small wavelengths they lose power quickly in the atmosphere due to presence of water and dust. So, you are going to need more power to track such a target than if you used L band. But they provide greater accuracy. That's why fighter radars are X band, so are missile seekers. Eventually seeker technology will advance enough to use higher bands, but it gets expensive.

Also, can you tell us where is India's technology maturity in Electro-Optical seekers?
No idea. Nothing is known since it is used in extremely important programs like the BMD program.
 

arnabmit

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Thanks! Very nice explanation!

So, logically for BMD Phase 1, LRTR would use L/S band and MFCR would use X band?

L band is 1-2 GHz
S band is 2-4 GHz
C band is 4-8 GHz
X band is 8-12 GHz
D band is the same as L band.

L, S, C, X, Ku, K etc are all IEEE specified bands while A, B, C, D, E etc are all NATO specific bands. In India we refer to the IEEE specifications while NATO uses their own. It's like Km and Miles. Most of the world refers to the IEEE band. You should be careful when you see C, K and L band from IEEE and C, K and L band from NATO. They have different values.

When it comes to aircraft, L band and S band are used for volume search and long range surveillance. These are the primary radars on AWACS and ships.

C band is also used for long range surveillance but can attenuate in the atmosphere so is not used as much. S and C band radars are used by air traffic controllers, along with L band.

X band is used for cueing missiles to targets. It helps generate a firing solution. All other bands above X can be used for the same. But as you go higher, you will need greater power to do the same. MMW is the last band in the radio spectrum.

The pros and cons are specific to the type of target. Large targets are better seen using L band, that's why they say stealth aircraft can be detected using even lower frequencies in the lower bands. But such bands do not provide high accuracy and are quite useless when it comes to guiding a missile to the target since they have a greater chances at missing.

Small targets are tracked better using higher bands like X, K etc. But due to their small wavelengths they lose power quickly in the atmosphere due to presence of water and dust. So, you are going to need more power to track such a target than if you used L band. But they provide greater accuracy. That's why fighter radars are X band, so are missile seekers. Eventually seeker technology will advance enough to use higher bands, but it gets expensive.



No idea. Nothing is known since it is used in extremely important programs like the BMD program.
 
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p2prada

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Thanks! Very nice explanation!

So, logically for BMD Phase 1, LRTR would use L/S band and MFCR would use X band?
BMD uses both. L band LRTR for surveillance and X band MFCR for guidance.
 

PaliwalWarrior

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2 questions

1. if IAF finds Aakash useful and it is also able to fire in Ripple mode as per latest tests what the problem with army & Navy

2. If The Maitri project & even the MR SAM LR SAM with Israel are based on our larnings from trishul project

tehn why cant Trishul project be revived QRSAM / our own version of IRON DOME with addtional learnings clubbed from NAG/Astra?brahmos ?
 

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France asks India to finalize joint missile project soon

NEW DELHI: France has asked India for early finalisation of the long-pending Rs 30,000-crore project for joint production of short-range surface-to-air missile (SR-SAM) systems. In a letter, the French defence ministry has told its Indian counterpart that "it will carry out substantial transfer of technology and know-how, especially in the field of missile guidance". The French side has proposed that the project "would enable India to get in a few years in areas of strategic missile, the maximum autonomy you have called for". SR-SAM is proposed to be a joint venture between India and France and they have nominated the DRDO (Defence Research and Development Organisation) and a French multinational firm for the programme. The deal has been under negotiations for over five years and has been awaiting final clearance after French President Francois Hollande and then Prime Minister Manmohan Singh in 2013 announced that talks have been concluded between both the sides on the missile development project. The IAF had raised certain objections over the programme but the defence ministry has to take a final call on the programme after holding discussions with all stakeholders. The French defence ministry said it wants to actively participate in new Indian government's plans to achieve autonomy in field of military hardware production. It has said that the missile programme would help in meeting India's domestic market and can also be supplied to future export markets.
France asks India to finalize joint missile project soon - The Times of India
 

arnabmit

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After France kept us hanging for more than 5yrs, now that DRDO is capable in seeker tech and is actively pursuing Astra based QR-SRSAM, France has finally woken up.

Now that the big $s are on the verge of flying away, they are falling head over heels to get the contract.

France asks India to finalize joint missile project soon

NEW DELHI: France has asked India for early finalisation of the long-pending Rs 30,000-crore project for joint production of short-range surface-to-air missile (SR-SAM) systems. In a letter, the French defence ministry has told its Indian counterpart that "it will carry out substantial transfer of technology and know-how, especially in the field of missile guidance". The French side has proposed that the project "would enable India to get in a few years in areas of strategic missile, the maximum autonomy you have called for". SR-SAM is proposed to be a joint venture between India and France and they have nominated the DRDO (Defence Research and Development Organisation) and a French multinational firm for the programme. The deal has been under negotiations for over five years and has been awaiting final clearance after French President Francois Hollande and then Prime Minister Manmohan Singh in 2013 announced that talks have been concluded between both the sides on the missile development project. The IAF had raised certain objections over the programme but the defence ministry has to take a final call on the programme after holding discussions with all stakeholders. The French defence ministry said it wants to actively participate in new Indian government's plans to achieve autonomy in field of military hardware production. It has said that the missile programme would help in meeting India's domestic market and can also be supplied to future export markets.
France asks India to finalize joint missile project soon - The Times of India
 

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