Maiden tests of air-launched BrahMos from November

[Yusuf]

India will carry out maiden tests of its air-launched BrahMos supersonic cruise missile from specially-modified Sukhoi-30 fighter planes from November, BrahMos Aerospace CEO Sudhir Mishra told HT.

Four flight tests will be conducted over a period of six months before the missile is declared ready for deployment on the fighter planes towards mid-2016. The actual missile will be tested in April 2016 following three dummy tests.

The Nasik division of Hindustan Aeronautics Limited has modified two Su-30 fighters to carry the 2.5-tonne missile, the world’s fastest supersonic cruise missile. The second aircraft is expected to be delivered to BrahMos Aerospace by September-end.

The BrahMos missile, an Indo-Russian joint venture, provides India the capability to hit targets 290km away at nearly three times the speed of sound. The missile’s land and naval variants — 500kg heavier than the air version — are already in service.

“The missile will give the IAF extended range capability. No other Air Force has such a powerful cruise missile in its inventory,” Mishra said. The BrahMos missile has three existing variants: Block-I (anti-ship), Block-II (land to land) and Block-III (with steep dive capabilities for mountain warfare).

The BrahMos missile is also expected to be deployed on six high-tech submarines to be built in India under the Rs 65,000-crore Project P-75I. Mishra said the joint venture was also pressing the accelerator on the BrahMos NG (next generation) missile project. Once ready, the NG missile, weighing only 1.4 tonnes, can be deployed on smaller warships and medium-weight fighter planes.

“We are in the process of freezing the design and specifications of BrahMos-NG. We are also talking to users to give us an indication of their requirements,” Mishra said.

BrahMos Aerospace is also developing India’s first hypersonic missile. Capable of travelling at a speed of 8,575 kmph, the missile could be ready in five to seven years. BrahMos-II (K) will be capable of taking out hardened targets such as underground bunkers and weapon storage facilities at seven times the speed of sound (Mach 7). As first reported by HT on August 8, the K in it is for Kalam.

http://m.hindustantimes.com/india-n...d-brahmos-from-november/article1-1390636.aspx

 

[Mikesingh]

Brahmos mated with SU-30MKIs....

 

[Superdefender]

Theory is very simple. When Su-30 MKI fires Brahmos-NG, MKI's speed (Mach 2+) add up with speed of NG (~Mach 3.5). In simple word when supersonic MKI fires, supersonic Brahmos-NG will release at hypersonic speed (Mach 5+) and gradually slow down with sustaining at ~Mach 3.5. Similarly when any supersonic fighter fires subsonic Nirbhaya, it will release at high supersonic speed. Then it speed will keep decreasing metre after metre until it becomes stable at ~Mach 0.8.

 

[Gessler]

Theory is very simple. When Su-30 MKI fires Brahmos-NG, MKI's speed (Mach 2+) add up with speed of NG (~Mach 3.5). In simple word when supersonic MKI fires, supersonic Brahmos-NG will release at hypersonic speed (Mach 5+) and gradually slow down with sustaining at ~Mach 3.5. Similarly when any supersonic fighter fires subsonic Nirbhaya, it will release at high supersonic speed. Then it speed will keep decreasing metre after metre until it becomes stable at ~Mach 0.8.

Lol, that's not how it works dude. You have messed up some basic stuff.

First of all, no MKI is gonna launch anything while travelling at maximum possible speeds. Only at cruise speeds (between 1 and 1.5 M) do missile launches usually take place.

Secondly, the missile's propulsion kicks in only after it has been released/dropped from the plane, which means the missile will coast for a few moments before the RAMJET turns on.

Even if the missile is released at supersonic speed of Mach 2, the Ramjet will only ever take it to M 3.5 (for the new NG version). The currently in-development BrahMos-A will have max speed of 2.8 to 3 Mach only.

What you're saying is like - if I toss a ball at 50kph while travelling in a 200kph train, the ball will go 250kph. But effectively, that's not how physics work. The ball will still be travelling only at a 50kph velocity.

BrahMos' (or any missile) speed is relative to the environment, and you cannot make a M3.5 missile reach M5 - the airframe of the missile is not designed for such speeds.

 

[garg_bharat]

Only at cruise speeds (between 1 and 1.5 M)

Cruise speed for a loaded Su-30 will be less than Mach 1.

What you're saying is like - if I toss a ball at 50kph while travelling in a 200kph train, the ball will go 250kph. But effectively, that's not how physics work. The ball will still be travelling only at a 50kph velocity.

Failed in Physics, Mr Gasbag!

The airplane's forward velocity is always transferred to the missile.

This is the reason air launched missile can be smaller compared to land launched missile due to the fact it requires less energy to sustain its speed.

Speed depends on many things - like how much speed the airframe can sustain and the related control surfaces.

 

[Gessler]

Cruise speed for a loaded Su-30 will be less than Mach 1.



Failed in Physics, Mr Gasbag!

The airplane's forward velocity is always transferred to the missile.

This is the reason air launched missile can be smaller compared to land launched missile due to the fact it requires less energy to sustain its speed.

Speed depends on many things - like how much speed the airframe can sustain and the related control surfaces.

There is Relative Speed and then you have a Frame of reference.

If you're implying that if you travel at M2 and release a M3.5 missile, the missile will go to M5.5, you're an unfathomable idiot.

There is a fundamental difference between AAMs and ALCMs like BrahMos. AAMs do not have propulsion after a while and just coast toward their target using forward momentum - hence launch velocity and altitude can have great effect on their range and speed.

ALCM like BrahMos on the other has continued propulsion till the point it hits its target.

The reason why ALCM BrahMos-A is smaller (length-wise) and lighter than the ground-launched version, is because it comes minus the booster stage. In GLCM version, the boost motor is required to get the missile up to certain altitude & speed before the Ramjet takes over - in air-launched configuration, the missile is separated from aircraft while already mid-air and travelling at required speed and altitude.

(Usually, you need minimum 640kph airspeed to get such a Ramjet working)

Although it's not operationally feasible, let's say you release BrahMos-A at a hypothetical speed of Mach 2 - the missile will fall away from the launch aircraft for a while when released (where it already loses some velocity) before it's Ramjet engine takes over.

In the most imaginary scenario, the speed at which missile is released in unlikely to be much different from the speed at which the booster stage falls off in the GLCM version.

The problem here is no longer relative speed, but the maximum velocity & airspeed that the missile's engine or airframe are designed to withstand. In the end, the maximum speed you can reach is always within the Ramjet's workable envelope (2.8 Mach for the existing version, upto 3.5 Mach for future NG version).

And ofcourse, ideally the speed of aircraft at release will try to be as close to the speed of GLCM version when booster stage ejects, as possible given the scenario.

You are confusing the mechanics of an AAM with this ALCM.

 

[garg_bharat]

@Gessler, blowing even more gas.

Justifying your stupid comments with even more stupid comments.

What is your education by the way?

Frame of reference. My foot.

 

[Gessler]

@Gessler, blowing even more gas.

Justifying your stupid comments with even more stupid comments.

What is your education by the way?

Frame of reference. My foot.

So, you also assume that you can have Mach 2.8 missiles flying at Mach 5.5 by launching them from air?

 

[garg_bharat]

I am not assuming anything.

I am just watching your stupidity.

Churn out more stupid comments.

I shall point out in the end your foolishness with physics proofs.

 

[pmaitra]

Let us look at the video of the Tupolev-160 launching cruise missiles.

Spoiler: Tupolev-160 launches Cruise Missiles

The Tupolev-160 drops the missile. The missile motor does not start until several seconds after being dropped. During this time, it appears that the missile and the Tupolev-160 are travelling at the same speed. This is because, the missile already carries momentum (mass times velocity) acquired from the Tupolev-160.

Now, the Tupolev-160 has its own engines that will sustain its speed. If the cruise missile does not start its engines, it will gradually slow down, due to wind resistance. So, the missile will ultimately have to use its own motor to continue towards its target.

So, while momentum is transferred from the launching airplane to the ALC missile, the advantage is just that a similar GLC missile will need extra propellant to achieve a similar performance (achieve altitude and speed), thus making the GLCM heavier.

After being dropped from the Tupolev-160, the missile has to use its own power to sustain its speed, and the momentum transferred from the Tupolev-160 remains relevant for only a short period of time.

 

[Gessler]

Let us look at the video of the Tupolev-160 launching cruise missiles.

Spoiler: Tupolev-160 launches Cruise Missiles

The Tupolev-160 drops the missile. The missile motor does not start until several seconds after being dropped. During this time, it appears that the missile and the Tupolev-160 are travelling at the same speed. This is because, the missile already carries momentum (mass times velocity) acquired from the Tupolev-160.

Now, the Tupolev-160 has its own engines that will sustain its speed. If the cruise missile does not start its engines, it will gradually slow down, due to wind resistance. So, the missile will ultimately have to use its own motor to continue towards its target.

So, while momentum is transferred from the launching airplane to the ALC missile, the advantage is just that a similar GLC missile will need extra propellant to achieve a similar performance, this making the GLCM heavier.

After being dropped from the Tupolev-160, the missile has to use its own power to sustain its speed, and the momentum transferred from the Tupolev-160 remains relevant for only a short period of time.

Precisely. In the end, the maximum speed that the missile can achieve is well within the envelope set by it's own propulsion system.

 

[harsh]

So, you also assume that you can have Mach 2.8 missiles flying at Mach 5.5 by launching them from air?

Gessler I don't know where do read these type of strange gas logics.

But try these.

Airframes are made much stronger than the actual speed limit. When you say 2.8 is limit then airframe is capable of taking much more.

When missile released from supersonic aircraft its range and speed increases not saying you can just add up the maximum limit.

In this case mach 5.5 is not achievable but it increase beyond mach 3.5. How much it will be known only by scientists.

That is past which are you talking about that you have to slow down before launching a missile.
Now aircraft can launch missile at any speed.

 

[harsh]

Precisely. In the end, the maximum speed that the missile can achieve is well within the envelope set by it's own propulsion system.

Yes air launch version of missile dont have same speed and range limit as land launch missile. They are set higher because they get some help.

Starting of motor depends upon the programme you can make it go closer to ground to hide its heat signature or you start early to enhance range and speed. Depends on the manufacturer

 

[Gessler]

Gessler I don't know where do read these type of strange gas logics.

But try these.

Airframes are made much stronger than the actual speed limit. When you say 2.8 is limit then airframe is capable of taking much more.

When missile released from supersonic aircraft its range and speed increases not saying you can just add up the maximum limit.

In this case mach 5.5 is not achievable but it increase beyond mach 3.5. How much it will be known only by scientists.

That is past which are you talking about that you have to slow down before launching a missile.
Now aircraft can launch missile at any speed.

No my dear,

When the airspeed reaches a certain limit, the Ramjet does not attempt to increase it further - beyond a certain point it cannot infact.

A missile has a maximum speed of M3.5 does not mean it achieves the speed instantly - even if you assume the missile is released at M2 (which won't happen, I assure you), the speed gradually builds up to 3/3.5M over a distance. Nor does it mean it travels at 3.5 throughout it's flight envelope. Going over and beyond 3.5 is another thing which is not possible unless the plane adopts some extraordinary flight profiles.

Besides, it's a question of relative airspeed - if you pass air at 5.5 Mach through a Ramjet certified for much lesser than that while it's running - bad stuff can happen.

I feel that everything will be revealed when BrahMos-A is actually launched from Su-30MKI. So why don't you wait and see instead of making these assumptions?

 

[Gessler]

Yes air launch version of missile dont have same speed and range limit as land launch missile. They are set higher because they get some help.

Starting of motor depends upon the programme you can make it go closer to ground to hide its heat signature or you start early to enhance range and speed. Depends on the manufacturer

You are talking about air-breathing engines here, not self-sustained rocket motors as found on AAMs.

Relative airspeed is an extremely important factor which you're missing. Yes, air-launched missiles can have longer range than GL because of altitude & momentum, but it's a marginal difference.

Speed in the case of cruise missiles depends on it's own air-breathing propulsion system, the initial velocity when released from aircraft is retained for mere seconds (as Pmaitra pointed out). The Ramjet takes over and drives the missile to much faster speed than launch velocity under it's own power - but beyond it's certified limit it cannot do anything.

So when the cruise missile is actually coming to hit the target - it's speed and momentum is completely dependant on it's own propulsion, the launch velocity is lost a long time ago. At NO POINT in it's flight envelope can either BrahMos-A or BrahMos-NG reach speeds faster than what their own Ramjets can propel them.

 

[pmaitra]

I just wanted to add that lunching a missile at a speed around Mach 3 is itself a challenge. Probably not so much if it is external, but from internal bays, there might be an upper limit.

The Tupolev-160 video shows that its wings were at the medium 30 degree sweep angle (min 20 deg.; max 65 deg.), which implies it wasn't flying supersonic.

 

[Gessler]

Seems I missed something (atleast as far as BrahMos-A goes), it is said to have a booster stage, but a much smaller one than GLCM version.

The BrahMos-A is a modified air-launched variant of the missile which will arm the Su-30MKI of the air force as a standoff weapon. To reduce the missile's weight to 2.55 tons, many modifications were made like using a smaller booster, adding fins for airborne stability after launch, and relocating the connector. It can be released from the height of 500 to 14,000 meters (1,640 to 46,000 ft). After release, the missile free falls for 100–150 meters, then goes into a cruise phase at 14,000 meters and finally the terminal phase at 15 meters. BrahMos Aerospace plans to deliver the missile to the IAF in 2015, where it is expected to arm at least three squadrons.[11] An Su-30MKI is able to only carry one BrahMos missile.[66]

The incorporation of a small booster clearly means one thing - the missile is not certified to be released at speeds which can allow for the Ramjet to directly take over. But, it further solidifies the point that the release speed is most likely to be within subsonic envelope. So, sorry guys but it's not going to 5.5 Mach no matter how you look at it.

 

[MKM]

Everyone has upgraded their missile many times to reduce weight & increase speed & range, can we make another variant of Brahmos with a range like Exocet such that we can use it on Mig29K in large numbers & we don't have to import AL AShMs.

 

[Chinmoy]

Everyone has upgraded their missile many times to reduce weight & increase speed & range, can we make another variant of Brahmos with a range like Exocet such that we can use it on Mig29K in large numbers & we don't have to import AL AShMs.

Problem is we are dependent on Russia for the engine and seeker tech of Brahmos. Although we are trying to develop seeker of our own as per CEO of Brahmos corp, but mastering the RAMJET engine tech would need time and effort. Without these two we can't have a long range RAMJET powered CM.

 

[Superdefender]

A Letter to @Gessler​

Ok, you are right. I know Brahmos can’t be launched at its full speed and first it falls freely for some moments. Thus, it can’t attain mach 5+ speed any way. But I was talking about those missiles which boost immediately after release, like Astra. Assume Astra releases from MKI by its own speed at mach 2 (max speed mach 4). Then it will obviously fly initially at mach 2++ (because of simple science)! Potential energy transform to Kinetic energy by speed of fighter as well as from missile booster. If one says that a missile flies only at its own speed, then it is a plain violation of Physics law. You said missile can’t exceed its max speed. It is right, but in a different way. I explain it to you in a hypothetical (funny) way.



Let GOD (yes, the Almighty) hold a Brahmos-NG in his hand and the missile has started boosting. When he will throw it (like we throw a stone), then imagine what will happen? Will Brahmos move forward at mere mach 3 speed? Answer is a big NO. NG would disintegrate totally and ultimately would get into dust because of the sheer lightning speed at which GOD threw it (it was boosting while throwing). It will attain speed of light for just a nano-second before completely disappearing into dust in the air. Remember top speed is mach 3.5; then how could it move forward at such high (unreal) velocity?!! Answer – Kinematic energy.



Now MKI is not GOD. You are right when you say Brahmos first detach itself from aircraft, then its ramjet takes off. But if we consider Astra like missiles, they will receive the extra speed post-release though the momentum could lost after 3-4 seconds and then it will travel purely by its own speed. Our area faced power cut-off for long 7 hours and just now, electricity has come. That’s why commenting so late. I know you will completely dismiss my theory; but consider for a moment (Atleast the GOD part). You would understand what I wanted to convey you yesterday.

Yours sincerely

Superdefender
​

Regular DFI Member​