Maiden tests of air-launched BrahMos from November

Discussion in 'Strategic Forces' started by Yusuf, Sep 16, 2015.

  1. Anupu

    Anupu Regular Member

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    Dude, see what is throwing, it is rate of change of momentum, or force, that needs acceleration. The aircraft is not in much acceleration at the point when it launches a missile. Now let's assume it is at 1.5 M and hence the initial velocity of Brahmos missile is 1.5 M. Now the engine will kick in after a time but even then let's assume it kicks in on the same moment. The missile will gain velocity due to the ramjet engine on board, but the ramjet has a maximum topspeed of say 3M. Eventually brahmos will stabalize on it.

    If MKI was to accelerate very quickly and then launch a say hypothetical scramjet missile, it can hypothetically it can take speeds up to 5-7M because the scramjet engine has the capacity to reach those speeds, I think something like that is what zircon/ Brahmos II ALCM will do. Even in the case of Brahmos II I think the missile will be launched from a cruising speed probably with a rocket booster.
     
  2. Superdefender

    Superdefender Senior Member Senior Member

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    @Anupu, that's what I tried to write in my previous post (before the letter). Read that before commenting. Missile will first accelerate, gaining net speed of fighter and its own booster; but after some meters it will stabilize at its max. speed. But this principle does not apply to missiles like Brahmos. What Gessler was saying that even if missile engine boosts at the same time as of releasing from aircraft, its speed will not exceed its max speed. How is that possible? It is just rape of Science law!!
     
  3. aerokan

    aerokan Regular Member

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    Brahmos fired from MKI is a bad example to make your arguments in this case.. Use Nirbhay (don't say nirbhaya pls) on MKI as example to prove your points.. Carry on

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  4. Superdefender

    Superdefender Senior Member Senior Member

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    I already posted before that this principle was not applicable to Brahmos in last two posts!! Why are you guys not reading posts before commenting?
     
  5. Superdefender

    Superdefender Senior Member Senior Member

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    I already posted before that this principle was not applicable to Brahmos in last two posts!! Why are you guys not reading posts before commenting?
     
  6. aerokan

    aerokan Regular Member

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    My comment is not specifically for you only.. Why use the same brahmos example if you don't think it is a good one? I don't see either side of the argument explaining what happens when a nirbhay missile is fired from MKI whether it will be 1.5M+0.8M or simply 0.8M which would have clearly concluded the argument. Anyways, ignore my rant and continue with your discussions

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  7. Anupu

    Anupu Regular Member

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    Because you were not very clear, I apologize for not being able to understand your argument, all I wanted to say was that Brahmos with a ramjet engine can't go beyond 3M because the ramjet engine needs to slow they air down to sub-sonic speeds for combustion.
     
  8. Gessler

    Gessler Regular Member

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    I didn't read all of it, but I'm damn sure I stepped in only when you said BrahMos-NG could achieve Mach 5+. I just showed you how that's not possible, regardless of the speed of MKI. The limiting factor is the missile's own engine - the Ramjet will fail to properly combust if airspeed is so much higher than specified limit. Thus, even if hypothetically the missile is dropped at Mach 2 (an impossibility in itself), the limitations of the missile's Ramjet will prevent it from accelerating any further than it's specified limits.

    I suggest you read my first line in Post #11332 to understand how BrahMos and AAMs are fundamentally different in the area of propulsion. One is air-breathing, which means the speed & compression of the air entering the inlet needs to be within certain parameters if the engine is to combust properly.

    Most types of AAMs on the other hand, while being under propulsion only for a short period of time, can make use of direct transfer of velocity as the thrust is provided by a rocket motor which can function regardless of airspeed and without need of any air inlet.
     
  9. harsh

    harsh Regular Member

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    Brother brahmos NG is still in development phase. I don't know its ramjet capability but from your post I am sure you know something which is top secret.
    Well obviously max speed can not be achieved In beginning but in somewhere in flight path. Now engine starting is decided by programme and the height at which aircraft is flying. Kinetic energy can't be disappeared unless something is resisting it.
    Speed of missile is dependent on design I agree but who says that the design is same for air launch brahmos and ground based brahmos.
    There are changes. Less fuel in air launch. Minus booster and extra stabilisation is there. Come on why do think ramjet is cannot go beyond mach 3.
    I am quoting from wiki here.
    Ramjets work most efficiently at supersonic speeds around Mach 3 (2,284 mph; 3,675 km/h). This type of engine can operate up to speeds of Mach 6 (4,567 mph; 7,350 km/h).

    So ramjet can go to mach 6 though it is not as efficient in burning fuel but it can in favourable conditions.
     
  10. Anupu

    Anupu Regular Member

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    Ramjet can only go till 3M because it needs the air to decelerate to sub-sonic speeds inside it to cause combustion. A ramjet that can work on higher speeds of air-inflow would be called a "Scramjet". That is something that is tough to do that is why it is under development. And that is why you don't see ramjet powered missiles to go above 3 M. Zircon/ Brahmos II will probably sport such a engine.
     
  11. harsh

    harsh Regular Member

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    Man I quoted Wikipedia here u can read if you have any link to support yours then you are welcome

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramjet

    You are second after gessler to make such a statement and want to prove Wikipedia wrong but ok give me a link.
     
  12. Gessler

    Gessler Regular Member

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    There already is an air-launched Yakhont called Kh-61 which is pretty much the same as the current version of ALCM BrahMos-A. Please look it up and see if you find any changes in the Ramjet or specified speed limit between the ground and air-launched versions. You won't find any because they're the same. The only changes are made with the intention of making the missile 'airworthy'; like modifying the nose cap, the control surfaces if required, etc. so that it can fit under a plane.

    [​IMG]

    Secondly, I never said it cannot go beyond X speed. BrahMos-A has a max of 2.8 to 3.0 Mach while the upcoming BrahMos-NG has upto 3.5 Mach, thanks to new Ramjet engine (as compared to older BrahMos; but this will be common across all variants of NG, not specific to ALCM version).

    All I said was that if a Ramjet is designed to allow a maximum airspeed of 2.8M or so, going much further than that is impossible even if the launch aircraft released the missile at it's own max speed of 2M. Because the engine limits the airspeed to within the parameters where it can properly function.

    'Ramjets' is too vague a word. It's like generalizing all turbofan engines as the same. There are different thresholds for each Ramjet engine and are specific to the conditions where it can operate.

    Bottomline is, if the ground-launched Ramjet is limited to 2.8M, in no feasible way can you make the same Ramjet go to 5M just because the missile is dropped from air. If you're gonna bring up the aspect of release velocity, lemme tell you that to the Ramjet, it hardly makes a difference - even the ground-launched version leaves the missile with enough velocity and airspeed to start the Ramjet.

    I'm sorry but the Ramjet is the same across all variants of existing BrahMos, with minor tuning differences. If the ALCM can reach 5 or 6 Mach, it means the GLCM/AShM can also reach the same speeds. Can they? Even in a hi-hi flight profile? No. The maximum given speed is 2.8 to 3 Mach and it will be the same across all variants.

    When the actual air-launch takes place - you will have conclusive evidence and hopefully then you can all shut up.
     
  13. Gessler

    Gessler Regular Member

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    No, dude. Ramjets can indeed go upto 5 or 6 Mach, if they're actually designed & certified for that threshold (the BrahMos/Yakhont Ramjet is not).

    Scramjet is an entirely different type of engine. The major difference is that a Scramjet has no moving parts and it can sustain speeds well upto 15 Mach or more, again depending on design & specified threshold.
     
  14. HariPrasad-1

    HariPrasad-1 Senior Member Senior Member

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    Mini Brahmos with 1 Ton lower weight and 20% higher speed with same declared range is already in making.
     
  15. Gessler

    Gessler Regular Member

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    Yes, that's the BrahMos-NG. It was previously known as BrahMos-Mini.

    [​IMG]
     
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  16. HariPrasad-1

    HariPrasad-1 Senior Member Senior Member

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    When
    When does Mini Brahmos come in? Any Idea?

    This Missile has a lot more utility. It is suitable as an unmatched sand off weapon and a very suitable submarine fire anti ship missile. It can kill any ship just with its Kinetic energy.
     
  17. HariPrasad-1

    HariPrasad-1 Senior Member Senior Member

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    Brahmos NG is remjet powered and Its speed is Mach 3.5. Brahmos NG with Ramjet planned for higher speed also. It is proposed to be taken at mach 5.0.
     
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  18. Gessler

    Gessler Regular Member

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    I'm not sure about induction dates but we should definitely see many test-firings within the end of this decade.

    It's principle uses are likely to be the ALCM and SLCM versions.
     
  19. Gessler

    Gessler Regular Member

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    Erm....nope. M3.5 is about as fast as BrahMos-NG will go.

    After this, all R&D regarding Ramjet cruise missiles will be severely curtailed - limited to electronic enhancements at most. Because after this, the BrahMos-II with the Scramjet will come in both ALCM and ground-launched versions, with ship-based variants also available.

    It is said that even the proposed Ramjet-powered LRCM (600-1000km range at max 3.2 mach) has been put on the back burner and maybe even cancelled because of the emergence of BrahMos-II proof of concept in Russian scramjet developments.
     
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  20. HariPrasad-1

    HariPrasad-1 Senior Member Senior Member

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    Yes LRCM was proposed to be tested in 2014. Do not know what happened since then. Do you have any idea of Multi target missile which was planned to be tested in 2014? It was a missile with small glide bomb type of small warhead which shall glide to the target after release from mother missile.
     

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