M777 ultra-light howitzers to Indian Army

[Chinmoy]

I don't understand M777 range is 25-37km with powerful rounds...
Why can't we use more pinaka it has more range and more powerful.....

The problem with Pinaka lies in its mobility. Being a truck mount system, it is not as mobile as M777, especially in mountainous warfare.

 

[Superdefender]

So 155 mm/ 42 cal Dhanush ATGS & its advanced version DRDO 155 mm/ 52 cal ATAGS are too heavy and can't be lifted by existing heavylift choppers?

 

[Chinmoy]

So 155 mm/ 42 cal Dhanush ATGS & its advanced version DRDO 155 mm/ 52 cal ATAGS are too heavy and can't be lifted by existing heavylift choppers?

M-777A weighs in at 4200 Kg whereas Dhanush, which is based on FH77 does tips the scale at 11000Kg more than double of M-777A.

 

[garg_bharat]

M-777A weighs in at 4200 Kg whereas Dhanush, which is based on FH77 does tips the scale at 11000Kg more than double of M-777A.

Still cannot be lugged by Mi-17.
However it is a good gun, far better than IFG/LFG which is used currently.

 

[garg_bharat]

The problem with Pinaka lies in its mobility. Being a truck mount system, it is not as mobile as M777, especially in mountainous warfare.

rockets go at acute angles. Cannot clear steep hills.
Mobility is also an issue, as the truck is big. Howitzer can be towed by even a small truck.

 

[Chinmoy]

Still cannot be lugged by Mi-17.
However it is a good gun, far better than IFG/LFG which is used currently.

Maximum takeoff weight of Mi-17 is 13000Kg. Means it could easily transport M-777 on its underbelly.

 

[Chinmoy]

rockets go at acute angles. Cannot clear steep hills.
Mobility is also an issue, as the truck is big. Howitzer can be towed by even a small truck.

Rockets does and could operate at any angle or in LOS too. All depends on its tracker and seeker. One can't simply compare artillery shells with rockets. The biggest issue with systems like Pinaka is their mobility. You simply can't put them in inaccessible heights.

 

[garg_bharat]

Maximum takeoff weight of Mi-17 is 13000Kg. Means it could easily transport M-777 on its underbelly.

What is the under-slung weight it can carry. And you need to discount the ground height and wind.

 

[garg_bharat]

Rockets does and could operate at any angle or in LOS too. All depends on its tracker and seeker. One can't simply compare artillery shells with rockets. The biggest issue with systems like Pinaka is their mobility. You simply can't put them in inaccessible heights.

Are you sure? The difference max/min range of rocket is much less than howitzer shell.
Pinaka in direct fire? Are you sure? Can you give example of such use?

 

[Chinmoy]

Are you sure? The difference max/min range of rocket is much less than howitzer shell.
Pinaka in direct fire? Are you sure? Can you give example of such use?

Max range of rocket will be always greater then any artillery shell. Moreover if you consider Howitzers with other field gun, the basic difference between the two is their firing method and angle of fire. By definition, a howitzer is a canon which does fire a heavy round with a comparatively low propellant charge in a trajectory. By default howitzer are not made to fire in a LOS. LOS firing is for field guns. It means the firing method of both rockets and howitzers are same. M777 does have a capability to fire in LOS, that's all.
Now on working mechanism of rockets, no where it is written that you can't fire it in a straight LOS. Pinaka could fire in any angle as you wish. But for the sake of sanity only a acute angle is preferred due to the unguided nature of the projectiles and to attain max striking distance. Both howitzers and MBRL could operate in tandem in any geography provide they have the same amount of mobility.

 

[garg_bharat]

@Chinmoy, you did not get what I said. Fair enough.

Pinaka and M777 have different applications. I do not think Pinaka substitutes for a gun/Howitzer.

The ballistics of artillery round and rocket are not same.

 

[Superdefender]

Pinaka-2 extended variant has even more range (120 km). It will be our Smerch.

 

[garg_bharat]

Problem is, you could make a similiar gun, but with the given metallurgy state at present, you can't make a light howitzer, ;eave alone a ultra light one, atleast for coming few years.

What do you know about metallurgy? Nothing is static. What is true ten years back is not true anymore.

India can definitely make similar gun. Though it makes sense to go for M777 as the gun has gone through a long drawn procurement process. Any other gun will cause delays now.

 

[garg_bharat]

Baba Kalyani interview on March 12, 2014:

What kind of gun have you made?

We’ve made two products; one is a 155 mm 52-calibre gun, with self-propelling and towing capability. This is a field gun, the mainstay of the Indian army like the Bofors guns. Our gun is similar but of a longer range. That was 39 calibre, this is 52; the calibre denotes the length of the barrel and the range.

We’ve also built an ultra-light howitzer gun, weighing around 900 kg; normal guns weigh around three tonnes. The technology of soft recall is from the US but we’ve built the whole gun in Pune, right from the special steel, forging in our plants and so on.

This gun has the advantage of much more mobility and can be mounted on a small truck, or lifted in a helicopter and put at the front on the mountains. The government is importing from the US 150 ultra-light Howitzers at a cost of $600 to $700 million. Ours has a smaller calibre, but by next year, we’ll also have a 155 mm gun at a substantially lower cost.

 

[garg_bharat]

It's the other way round. Arty rounds are unguided projectiles used in indirect fire mode, need calculations prior to firing and are constrained by the laws of gravity, Pinaka is a guided missile system. Pinaka is a much more sophisticated version of Smerch, which was used during Kargil, it is very much suitable.
Yup. Mi-17 can carry one M777 on sling load with zero internal load.

You are wrong Mr Kundu. Only howitzer round can be fired at high angle of fire. MBRL rockets WILL NOT STABILIZE at high angle of fire. Also MBRL rocket will not hit accurately in direct fire. Show me examples if you can.

MBRL rockets have limited use in high mountains. It is a fact. Other option is guided missiles like Prithvi and Brahmos which will be needed in the mountains.

 

[garg_bharat]

Why Kargil war took more than two months - there are reasons.

 

[Chinmoy]

@Chinmoy, you did not get what I said. Fair enough.

Pinaka and M777 have different applications. I do not think Pinaka substitutes for a gun/Howitzer.

The ballistics of artillery round and rocket are not same.

rockets go at acute angles. Cannot clear steep hills.

What ever I've said is for this quote..... Rockets could clear steep hills just like artillery shells. As far as comparing rockets and shells, its a known fact that both does plays different role.

 

[Chinmoy]

What do you know about metallurgy? Nothing is static. What is true ten years back is not true anymore.

India can definitely make similar gun. Though it makes sense to go for M777 as the gun has gone through a long drawn procurement process. Any other gun will cause delays now.

Let us be true to our self. M777 is made up of Titanium and Aluminium alloy which does make it ultra light in comparison to the contemporary howitzer. As far as making howitzers is concerned, India could sure make it, but quote a source which says that right now we could carve one from Titanium and Aluminium alloy.

I never said that India could never make one, I just said that at present our metallurgy is not matured enough to make one in near future.

 

[Chinmoy]

You are wrong Mr Kundu. Only howitzer round can be fired at high angle of fire. MBRL rockets WILL NOT STABILIZE at high angle of fire. Also MBRL rocket will not hit accurately in direct fire. Show me examples if you can.

MBRL rockets have limited use in high mountains. It is a fact. Other option is guided missiles like Prithvi and Brahmos which will be needed in the mountains.

http://www.iaeng.org/publication/WCE2015/WCE2015_pp1252-1256.pdf

In direct fire mode if we do compare two unguided projectiles of different mass, then the projectile with lower mass would be more capable to hit a target at a longer distance due to lower gravitational coefficient working on it. The only reason why MLRS are not fired in a too sallow angle or at an steep angle is due to the fact that its less stable then a howitzer which is generally fixed on ground rather then a vehicle unlike MLRS. But if you put the howitzer on a truck, then it too would show restrains like a MLRS. Example Archer system.

 

[airtel]

I think it has some advanced radar & targeting system too because of which it is so costly .