M4 Rifles for Army SF Units

[EzioAltaïr]

completely agree.... right tool for the right job. I haven't still come across any firearm which is not criticized.

hold tighter tolerances, get better accuracy, compromise ruggedness (wrt dirt grit etc) and viceversa, there are AR variants specifically built to be robust, and there are others built for urban warfare etc.

My contention was M4 is not a "failed" platform

No, M4 is not a "failure" as such. Even the best of rifles can get jammed in the worst of conditions, and while the M4 certainly isn't as reliable as some others on the market, it has a good enough reliability to be used by soldiers, else U.S. Army wouldn't have procured so many of it. It has amazing accuracy, which is great. After the Battle of Fallujah, the journalists originally thought that the U.S. guys has captured and executed the Iraqis, because of the number of headshots they saw.

 

[SPIEZ]

how is m4 an failure? and what are the well known facts

In recent years, the M4 finished dead last in a sandstorm reliability test, against 3 competitors that include a convertible M4 variant. Worse, the 4th place M4 had over 3.5x more jams than the 3rd place finisher. Was that a blip in M4 buys, or a breaking point? DID explains the effort, the issues, and the options, as the Army moves forward with an "Individual Carbine" competition. But will it actually replace the M4?

The USA’s M4 Carbine Controversy

 

[SPIEZ]

Failure of M4

Like its predecessor the M16, the M4 also has a reputation as an excellent weapon – if you can maintain it. Failure to maintain the weapon meticulously can lead to jams, especially in sandy or dusty environments. Kalashnikovs may not have a reputation for accuracy, or lightness – but they do have a well-earned reputation for being able to take amazing amounts of abuse, without maintenance, and still fire reliably. The Israeli "Galil" applied these lessons in 5.56mm caliber, and earned a similar reputation. Colt's M16 and M4 have never done so.

According to briefing documents obtained by Gannett's Army Times magazine:

"USMC officials said the M4 malfunctioned three times more often than the M16A4 during an assessment conducted in late summer 2002 for Marine Corps Systems Command at Quantico, VA. Malfunctions were broken down into several categories, including "magazine," "failure to chamber," "failure to fire," "failure to extract" and "worn or broken part," according to the briefing documents. During the comparison, the M4 failed 186 times across those categories over the course of 69,000 rounds fired. The M16A4 failed 61 times during the testing.
The Army conducted a more recent reliability test between October 2005 and April 2006, which included 10 new M16s and 10 new M4s"¦. On average, the new M16s and M4s fired approximately 5,000 rounds between stoppages, according to an Army official who asked that his name not be released."

 

[SPIEZ]

Failure of M4

Afghanistan, Staff Sgt. Erich Phillips' M4 carbine quit firing as militant forces surrounded the base. The machine gun he grabbed after tossing the rifle aside didn't work either.

In this March file photo, M4 Colt rifle are produced at the Colt Defense Plant in Hartford, Conn.
When the battle in the small village of Wanat ended, nine U.S. soldiers lay dead and 27 more were wounded. A detailed study of the attack by a military historian found that weapons failed repeatedly at a "critical moment" during the firefight on July 13, 2008, putting the outnumbered American troops at risk of being overrun by nearly 200 insurgents.

 

[Mangal]

Re: New Assault Rifles for Indian Army

India army uses variety of assault rifles from AK's to M4's. In my view its not about upgrading our forces but its more about making money. I am still clueless why the special forces ordered M4 carbines (in limited numbers) few months back when they allready have Tavor( in limited numbers) which is better than M4's. This limited numbers buying only suggests making of quick bucks by agents.

 

[abingdonboy]

Re: New Assault Rifles for Indian Army

India army uses variety of assault rifles from AK's to M4's. In my view its not about upgrading our forces but its more about making money. I am still clueless why the special forces ordered M4 carbines (in limited numbers) few months back when they allready have Tavor( in limited numbers) which is better than M4's. This limited numbers buying only suggests making of quick bucks by agents.

The SFs have Tavors in large numbers- pretty much enough to equip all the SFs. IIRCA the M4s were bought because they are lighter and have a retractable stock meaning they can be made shorter- this was required for airborne operations.

 

[Immanuel]

Re: New Assault Rifles for Indian Army

India army uses variety of assault rifles from AK's to M4's. In my view its not about upgrading our forces but its more about making money. I am still clueless why the special forces ordered M4 carbines (in limited numbers) few months back when they allready have Tavor( in limited numbers) which is better than M4's. This limited numbers buying only suggests making of quick bucks by agents.

Tavor's are not necesarily better the the M-4s, M-4 is simply one of the most cutomizable rifles. SF units like to add all kind of attachments to their rifles and M-4s depending the variant can be reasonably reliable. Latest variants depending on the manufacturer can be extremly rugged and reliable too. Daniel Defence for eg IMO makes the most reliable and rugged ARs out there.

This new ammo seems interesting too

300 AAC Blackout (7.62×35mm) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

https://danieldefense.com/rifles/carbine-length/daniel-defense-m4-v5-300-aac-blackout.html

Google Image Result for http://www.common-sense-politics.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/gun-control-m4-carbine-accessories.jpg

Trijicon ACOG®

ACOGs come in various price ranges, the most expensive are around $3000 +

Dual-Illuminated - Trijicon, Inc.

These could be useful for SF units on their secondary weapons

Vector SDP .45 ACP

The new KRISS pistol should be the standard secondary weapon for all SF units including NSG.

I think we should order lot of KRISS and locally lanufacture, this thing could be ideal for a secondary weapon standard across the entire infantry and SF units, a nightmare CQB weapon made to compliment the main weapon.

 

[Mangal]

Re: New Assault Rifles for Indian Army

The SFs have Tavors in large numbers- pretty much enough to equip all the SFs. IIRCA the M4s were bought because they are lighter and have a retractable stock meaning they can be made shorter- this was required for airborne operations.

What i am trying to point out is if our defence planners purpose was to equip our forces with good assault rifles the could have been done with either Tavor OR M4's long back ago. Induction of tavors began as back as 2002. When special frontier force were given these rifles for evaluation.Now after 10 yrs of testing, evaluation and limited induction in various special forces another tender is out. This time army wants multi barrel rifles with rails and foldable butts. How much short sighted our defence planners can be? Its also to be noted that beteween theses 10yrs we purcased AK's and as i mentioned M4's as well. So we have multiple tenders coming out within a decade for an assault rifle. And this is 2012 and not 2002 when M4's are being purchased for special forces when US special forces themselves are using HK416 and FN SCAR and US army is on verge of retiering M4's from service. Eithers its short sightedness on part of our defence planners or its just for making money by kickbacks. I am not against modernising our forces. I am happy that ultimately our forces are getting guns to kill dogs. But its the haphazard manner in which this modernisation is done that worries me.

 

[Immanuel]

Re: New Assault Rifles for Indian Army

M-4 is a widely used term for a common AR. There are brilliant ARs out there, an M-4 though originally made by Colt isn't the only M-4 available, the Remington R-4 is essentially an M-4, Daniel Defence too has an M-4, even HK initally called the HK416 as the HK M4, the name was changed after a law suit by colt.
Even the SR-16 is a variant of the M-16.

LWRC too has many AR variants based on the M4/16 rifles. Depending on the manufacturer the quality, reliability and durability varies. There is no info clarifying which manufacture was roped in to provide the M-4 finally acquired for our SF units. The US using the HK416 for certain forces only says that they are using a M-4 made by a manufacturer who addressed some reliability issues faced while using M-4s made by another manufacturer.

The AR is a good rifle and would be very silly to call the acqusition of such rifles short sightedness.

Certain versions of the AR now are among the deadliest rifles one can acquire. The Sig 516 too is just another very reliable M-4 made by SIG, at the heart of these weapons is an M-4.

SIG516 Patrol

Alexander Arms

LWRC International LLC - Rifles

Military | Weapons | Accessories | Knight's Armament Company

Bushmaster - XM-15 Rifles

https://danieldefense.com/TortureTest

Furthermore, due to the fact that there are enough AR variants, there are enough AR attachments made by enough mnaufacturers which gives enough choice for buyers since they can get what they want at often very competitive prices. M-4/ AR variants are available at very good prices for bulk buys.

 

[Mangal]

Re: New Assault Rifles for Indian Army

M-4 is a widely used term for a common AR. There are brilliant ARs out there, an M-4 though originally made by Colt isn't the only M-4 available, the Remington R-4 is essentially an M-4, Daniel Defence too has an M-4, even HK initally called the HK416 as the HK M4, the name was changed after a law suit by colt.
Even the SR-16 is a variant of the M-16.

LWRC too has many AR variants based on the M4/16 rifles. Depending on the manufacturer the quality, reliability and durability varies. There is no info clarifying which manufacture was roped in to provide the M-4 finally acquired for our SF units. The US using the HK416 for certain forces only says that they are using a M-4 made by a manufacturer who addressed some reliability issues faced while using M-4s made by another manufacturer.

The AR is a good rifle and would be very silly to call the acqusition of such rifles short sightedness.Certain versions of the AR now are among the deadliest rifles one can acquire. The Sig 516 too is just another very reliable M-4 made by SIG, at the heart of these weapons is an M-4.

SIG516 Patrol

Alexander Arms

LWRC International LLC - Rifles

Military | Weapons | Accessories | Knight's Armament Company

Bushmaster - XM-15 Rifles

https://danieldefense.com/TortureTest

Furthermore, due to the fact that there are enough AR variants, there are enough AR attachments made by enough mnaufacturers which gives enough choice for buyers since they can get what they want at often very competitive prices. M-4/ AR variants are available at very good prices for bulk buys.

Instead of making personal comments it would be nice to have a better reading about the developments that are taking place in AR field and not be stuck in past decade.

For starters would request you to go through this article
Heckler & Koch HK416 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

particularly this parra:
EvaluationIn July 2007 the US Army announced a limited competition between the M4 carbine, FN SCAR, HK416, XCR, and the previously-shelved HK XM8. Ten examples of each of the four competitors were involved. Each weapon fired 6,000 rounds in an "extreme dust environment". The purpose of the shoot-off was for assessing future needs, not to select a replacement for the M4.[7][8] The XM8 scored the best, with only 127 stoppages in 60,000 total rounds, the FN SCAR Light had 226 stoppages, while the HK416 had 233 stoppages. The M4 carbine scored "significantly worse" than the rest of the field with 882 stoppages.[1]

In December 2009, a modified version of the HK416 was selected for the final testing in the Infantry Automatic Rifle program, designed to partially replace the M249 light machine gun at the squad level for the United States Marine Corps.[9] It beat the three other finalists by FN Herstal and Colt Defense. In July 2010, the HK416 IAR was designated as the M27, and 450 were procured for additional testing.[10]

And as far as cheap price on bulk purchase goes i believe enfield rifles will be much cheaper.

 

[Immanuel]

Re: New Assault Rifles for Indian Army

You needn't post all these reports from wiki to prove that HK M-4 is better than a Colt M-4, Colt M-4 isn't the best and that was known for quite some years. I again make it clear, the HK416 is just a HK made M-4 just another AR. A modern Daniel Defence M-4 would certainly out perform the best of the HK rifle available currently. I think you are the one horribly stuck in the past since those evaluations happened in 2007 and have had no significant bearing on what happens next. In the mean time newer versions of M-4s have been ordered.

U.S. Army places order for 24,000 M4A1 carbines with Remington | Military Times GearScout

As of April 2012, 24K more Remington M-4s were ordered by the US army.

Infantry and SF units have different needs. SF units have weapons needs depending on the mission and their weapons can vary considerably. Which is also why they deploy everything from the trusted AK to silenced Uzis, Tavors to Galils, M-4s to Sigs, Mp-5s etc. Ordering more M-4s from an un disclosed vendor doesn't mount to short sightedness rather acquisiton of tools for very particular missions.

 

[Saumyasupraik]

Re: New Assault Rifles for Indian Army

Most AR makers are now integrating gas piston designs like the HK416 in their catalogs which are either replacing the older direct impingement AR or supplementing them.Even Colt introduced it's new Advanced Piston Carbine.

 

[Immanuel]

Re: New Assault Rifles for Indian Army

Very true, some of the very latest ARs can meet even the most stringent of tests on relibility, ruggedness and durability.

 

[Mangal]

Re: New Assault Rifles for Indian Army

You needn't post all these reports from wiki to prove that HK M-4 is better than a Colt M-4, Colt M-4 isn't the best and that was known for quite some years. I again make it clear, the HK416 is just a HK made M-4 just another AR. A modern Daniel Defence M-4 would certainly out perform the best of the HK rifle available currently. I think you are the one horribly stuck in the past since those evaluations happened in 2007 and have had no significant bearing on what happens next. In the mean time newer versions of M-4s have been ordered.U.S. Army places order for 24,000 M4A1 carbines with Remington | Military Times GearScout

As of April 2012, 24K more Remington M-4s were ordered by the US army.

Infantry and SF units have different needs. SF units have weapons needs depending on the mission and their weapons can vary considerably. Which is also why they deploy everything from the trusted AK to silenced Uzis, Tavors to Galils, M-4s to Sigs, Mp-5s etc. Ordering more M-4s from an un disclosed vendor doesn't mount to short sightedness rather acquisiton of tools for very particular missions.

There are two types of rifle designs the AK-47 design and AR-15 design which uses a rotating-lock bolt, actuated by direct impingement gas operation or long and short stroke piston operation.What you are talking about is the rifle design which is called AR-15 design and not M4 design. So basically you are making a wrong statement. Majority of US gun manufacturers use the same design. Guns like Bushmaster ACR, Magpul Masada, HK416 and FN SCAR have picked up from where M4 carbine left on the demands made by US special forces and are "AR - 15 VARIANTS" not "another M4" and naturally a better buy than M4.
Now what I said was that i couldn't understand the rational behind going for M4's in the year 2012. Its true that SF units all over the world have various kind of guns in their arsenal and use them as per suitability. But our SF units allready have M4's with them. So there was no dire need to buy M4'S instead of advanced weapons which are available now.

The tests conducted in 2007 by US army are very much relevant today and have their implication in "Individual carbine competition" of US army which would replace M4's by 2018. If a modern Daniel Defence M-4 could out perform the best of the HK rifle available currently then the US army wouldn't be having this competition in first place. Secondly, M4 made by daniel defence is not even a contender in this competition. Now thats a "silly statement".
So, brother i am not horribly stuck in past its only you who is stuck in prehistoric era with your beloved M4 carabine.

 

[abingdonboy]

Re: New Assault Rifles for Indian Army

There are two types of rifle designs the AK-47 design and AR-15 design which uses a rotating-lock bolt, actuated by direct impingement gas operation or long and short stroke piston operation.What you are talking about is the rifle design which is called AR-15 design and not M4 design. So basically you are making a wrong statement. Majority of US gun manufacturers use the same design. Guns like Bushmaster ACR, Magpul Masada, HK416 and FN SCAR have picked up from where M4 carbine left on the demands made by US special forces and are "AR - 15 VARIANTS" not "another M4" and naturally a better buy than M4.
Now what I said was that i couldn't understand the rational behind going for M4's in the year 2012. Its true that SF units all over the world have various kind of guns in their arsenal and use them as per suitability. But our SF units allready have M4's with them. So there was no dire need to buy M4'S instead of advanced weapons which are available now.

The tests conducted in 2007 by US army are very much relevant today and have their implication in "Individual carbine competition" of US army which would replace M4's by 2018. If a modern Daniel Defence M-4 could out perform the best of the HK rifle available currently then the US army wouldn't be having this competition in first place. Secondly, M4 made by daniel defence is not even a contender in this competition. Now thats a "silly statement".
So, brother i am not horribly stuck in past its only you who is stuck in prehistoric era with your beloved M4 carabine.

Sir, with all due respect, you can't comment on the logic of the IA SF decding to go for the M4, they have their own particular needs in mind and may have a speciifc mission in mind. We don't know the exact reasoning or descion behind buying them. Also I am not convinced they were basic M4s that were ordered, I don't put much faith in the Indian defence media who reported this news not only did they claim this was the rifle used on the OBL raid (which it was NOT) and that this was the first time Indian SOFs were to use the M4s (when they have been using them for decades). The M4 family is a wide and varied bunch and as such it could be the very latest Bushmasters the IA SF are getting.

 

[Immanuel]

Re: New Assault Rifles for Indian Army

There are two types of rifle designs the AK-47 design and AR-15 design which uses a rotating-lock bolt, actuated by direct impingement gas operation or long and short stroke piston operation.What you are talking about is the rifle design which is called AR-15 design and not M4 design. So basically you are making a wrong statement. Majority of US gun manufacturers use the same design. Guns like Bushmaster ACR, Magpul Masada, HK416 and FN SCAR have picked up from where M4 carbine left on the demands made by US special forces and are "AR - 15 VARIANTS" not "another M4" and naturally a better buy than M4.
Now what I said was that i couldn't understand the rational behind going for M4's in the year 2012. Its true that SF units all over the world have various kind of guns in their arsenal and use them as per suitability. But our SF units allready have M4's with them. So there was no dire need to buy M4'S instead of advanced weapons which are available now.

The tests conducted in 2007 by US army are very much relevant today and have their implication in "Individual carbine competition" of US army which would replace M4's by 2018. If a modern Daniel Defence M-4 could out perform the best of the HK rifle available currently then the US army wouldn't be having this competition in first place. Secondly, M4 made by daniel defence is not even a contender in this competition. Now thats a "silly statement".
So, brother i am not horribly stuck in past its only you who is stuck in prehistoric era with your beloved M4 carabine.

All this bla bla yet HK called their beloved 416 a HK M-4 till Colt wasn't happy, so even when the manufacturer itself says that their design is an upgraded M-4, then they know better. I repeat I have nothing against a HK M-4 or Bushmaster M-4 or a Sig-M-4 they can all be called as M-4s just as they can be called AR-variants. Many of the contenders for the US army' replacement program offer modified and upgraded ARs with enhancements for reliability, durability and all weather performance.

You are being very naïve about how SF units operate, these units have different weapon needs based on particular types of missions.
Have a look at the link below and see for your self the vast variety of weapons the SF units in US deploy. HK416, SCAR etc are part of the vast choice and these skilled operators will choose the weapon they need for the mission. There is no single weapon for all missions.

US Special Operations | Weapons

There is no info suggesting which M-4 variant the IA SF units went for, looking at the fact that our SF units use various advanced weapons, adding this proven and useful weapon to the list is not short sightedness but a well made choice based on needs rather than the rantings of a DFI member.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Re: New Assault Rifles for Indian Army

Indian SF went for Colt M4..

 

[Mangal]

Re: New Assault Rifles for Indian Army

All this bla bla yet HK called their beloved 416 a HK M-4 till Colt wasn't happy, so even when the manufacturer itself says that their design is an upgraded M-4, then they know better. I repeat I have nothing against a HK M-4 or Bushmaster M-4 or a Sig-M-4 they can all be called as M-4s just as they can be called AR-variants. Many of the contenders for the US army' replacement program offer modified and upgraded ARs with enhancements for reliability, durability and all weather performance.

You are being very naïve about how SF units operate, these units have different weapon needs based on particular types of missions.
Have a look at the link below and see for your self the vast variety of weapons the SF units in US deploy. HK416, SCAR etc are part of the vast choice and these skilled operators will choose the weapon they need for the mission. There is no single weapon for all missions.

US Special Operations | Weapons

There is no info suggesting which M-4 variant the IA SF units went for, looking at the fact that our SF units use various advanced weapons, adding this proven and useful weapon to the list is not short sightedness but a well made choice based on needs rather than the rantings of a DFI member.

Going by your replies it is evident that you have nothing subtantial left to add in this debate and have no other option left other than repeating your points. You are giving hyperlink for what? Weapons used by American special forces? And you are clueless that Indian special forces allready use colt m4. That's laughable. God forbid, if this debate goes on, in your sheer desparation to score a point you might end up calling an AK-12 an M4. Instead of constant bickering, try to read more and develop understanding of what you are talking about. Incomplete knowledge is dangerous. Raw, half cooked, unverified and speculative information doesn't make facts. Buying colt m4 for army might be a good decison but buyng colt m4 for special forces now is nothing less than short sightedness for me.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Re: New Assault Rifles for Indian Army

Regular`s rifle endure more punishment than SF`s, Certainly something less reliable is not good for Regulars or even SF..

There were better alternatives to Colt M4 specially H&K and other Rifles such as Galil ACE..

 

[Immanuel]

Re: New Assault Rifles for Indian Army

Going by your replies it is evident that you have nothing subtantial left to add in this debate and have no other option left other than repeating your points. You are giving hyperlink for what? Weapons used by American special forces? And you are clueless that Indian special forces allready use colt m4. That's laughable. God forbid, if this debate goes on, in your sheer desparation to score a point you might end up calling an AK-12 an M4. Instead of constant bickering, try to read more and develop understanding of what you are talking about. Incomplete knowledge is dangerous. Raw, half cooked, unverified and speculative information doesn't make facts. Buying colt m4 for army might be a good decison but buyng colt m4 for special forces now is nothing less than short sightedness for me.

M-4 was used by our units for a long time, I repeat again M-4 has many variants, buying a new variant knowing they operate it already only means they are happy with it you a choice made by our own units only means they know what they are doing, I understand our SF units to be professional enough to know what they are buying. You hardly understand that its not about what you or me like, it is about what they choose. so stop bitching. Respect the choices the professionals make.