Lockheed May Pitch F-35; GoI Says No Plans to Buy F-35

[ganesh177]

The F-35 jet is still in development. At an estimated $382 billion, it's the Pentagon's most expensive weapons program. The U.S. Government Accountability Office has said the planes cost about $133 million each in today's dollars. The Pentagon plans to buy more than 2,400.
Buying F-35s at $133 million each would boost India's cost in acquiring 126 fighters by about 50 percent, from a currently estimated $11 billion to almost $17 billion

Pentagon alone is planning to acquire 2400 of these planes, which is still under development. Add to that the nato nations(and others) orders.
Look at the situation, at the moment there is no official clearance from US senate, no official declaration from obama administration. No official offer on table. No official acceptance from MOD of india to reconsider the LM bid, and no willingness to restart the process again. All this will take good 4-5 years. I dont see this plane coming to india before 2023, and it kills the motive of mmrca. So i guess there is no need to waste time on this discussion.

 

[ace009]

Canada Opposition Unhappy With F-35's Costs - Defense News

so, considering 30 billion dollars for only 65 F-35's i was fair enough to say the following in my earlier post if we select F-35 then

Do you even read what you are posting? here's from your link ...

Jay Paxton, spokesman for Defense Minister Peter MacKay, however stood by the government's procurement cost projections of C$9 billion ($9.2 billion) to buy and C$250-300 million ($256-308 million) annually to maintain over 20 years.

"The F-35 is the only jet that can meet the needs of the Air Force, as noted by Mr. Page," Paxton added. "Simply put, this is the best plane for the best price."

The procurement cost is $9.2 Billion. Now maintenance cost for 65 F-35s is projected to be $256-308 million annually. Much of it will be salary of personnel, which is cheaper in India. Say a 5th gen fighter needs 8-9 technicians to maintain, plus two pilots, which means a total of 715 people. Even at a salary + benefits of $80,000 average a year, that comes to $57 million a year in Canada. It should be cheaper in India. Rest of the $200 million is fuel, spares and upgrades which may or may not be the same for India. For each aircraft it comes to about $3 million a year. think that's too much for a 5th gen fighter? So, a lifetime cost of $60 millions per aircraft sounds too much to you? Guess what the French are asking for to upgrade the damn OLD Mirage 2000s after 20 years - $79 million per aircraft! Seems right now?
As for the indigenous AMCA - as I mentioned earlier, after looking at the past development history of the LCA and the current status of the FGFA (still on paper, since even after bearing for half the development cost of the PAK-FA, we have very little say in it and even lesser development share), the F-35 will be a really good deal.
You said the US Govt cut off half the "goodies" - do the research and you will find out that there were only a couple of items missing and ONLY because IAF refused to sign the CISMOA - rightly so, since they did not want to lose any control. But without the CISMOA, those goodies were never coming. MoD knew that, IAF knew that and they are not unhappy. It was the Indian media that made it into a circus.
As for the costs of the C-130 and C-17, the IAF and MoD was willing to pay this huge amount because they were going through the FMS channel (Foreign Military Sales - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia). The advantage being the US govt is vouchsafing for the delivery and maintenance of the equipment, aka serving as the middleman! If the MoD is willing to pay, why do you blame the USA?

 

[utubekhiladi]

Do you even read what you are posting? here's from your link ...

Jay Paxton, spokesman for Defense Minister Peter MacKay, however stood by the government's procurement cost projections of C$9 billion ($9.2 billion) to buy and C$250-300 million ($256-308 million) annually to maintain over 20 years.

"The F-35 is the only jet that can meet the needs of the Air Force, as noted by Mr. Page," Paxton added. "Simply put, this is the best plane for the best price."

The procurement cost is $9.2 Billion. Now maintenance cost for 65 F-35s is projected to be $256-308 million annually. Much of it will be salary of personnel, which is cheaper in India. Say a 5th gen fighter needs 8-9 technicians to maintain, plus two pilots, which means a total of 715 people. Even at a salary + benefits of $80,000 average a year, that comes to $57 million a year in Canada. It should be cheaper in India. Rest of the $200 million is fuel, spares and upgrades which may or may not be the same for India. For each aircraft it comes to about $3 million a year. think that's too much for a 5th gen fighter? So, a lifetime cost of $60 millions per aircraft sounds too much to you? Guess what the French are asking for to upgrade the damn OLD Mirage 2000s after 20 years - $79 million per aircraft! Seems right now?
As for the indigenous AMCA - as I mentioned earlier, after looking at the past development history of the LCA and the current status of the FGFA (still on paper, since even after bearing for half the development cost of the PAK-FA, we have very little say in it and even lesser development share), the F-35 will be a really good deal.
You said the US Govt cut off half the "goodies" - do the research and you will find out that there were only a couple of items missing and ONLY because IAF refused to sign the CISMOA - rightly so, since they did not want to lose any control. But without the CISMOA, those goodies were never coming. MoD knew that, IAF knew that and they are not unhappy. It was the Indian media that made it into a circus.
As for the costs of the C-130 and C-17, the IAF and MoD was willing to pay this huge amount because they were going through the FMS channel (Foreign Military Sales - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia). The advantage being the US govt is vouchsafing for the delivery and maintenance of the equipment, aka serving as the middleman! If the MoD is willing to pay, why do you blame the USA?

what is it that you are trying to show me by asking "Do you even read what you are posting? here's from your link" ?

 

[utubekhiladi]

For each aircraft it comes to about $3 million a year

do you know what is the cost to maintain and fuel f-15/22 for every 72 hour of flight? The F-22, has recently required more than 30 hours of maintenance for every hour in the skies, pushing its hourly cost of flying to more than $44,000. may be F-35 will cost little less. so calculate 44,000 x 72 and see where your $3 million stands.

Say a 5th gen fighter needs 8-9 technicians to maintain,

Lmao...we are not taking about repairing and maintaining my grandmother's radio it takes at-least 2 people to change oil for my Lexus do you know how many components are there in a fighter jet and how complex it is?

the past development history of the LCA

ya,, ya, we took more time to develop LCA because we started this project when we didn't even had technology to build rubber tire for aeroplane.

there were only a couple of items missing and ONLY because IAF refused to sign the CISMOA

forum, please tell what else is stripped off from C-17's?

Even at a salary + benefits of $80,000 average a year,

when negotiate price for a fighter, the salary for the pilots is the very last thing u need to worry about..

If the MoD is willing to pay, why do you blame the USA?

forum, please correct me if i am wrong here, i think we discovered that usa billed us more only after the deal went through right?

I don't see the cost for weapon packages in your equation. you didn't said anything about all the agreements, strings and constraints that will come with F-35.

 

[utubekhiladi]

i get confused with C17s and C130 is it just me...?

 

[sayareakd]

Pls stay away from tempting offers, we will end up with nothing at the end. With this master stoke MRCA will delay and so will be AMCA. It will be better if IN buy some 50 of these fighter if US is so desperate to enter into our market. Based on what IN got IAF can then think, replacing some of the Jags with these in future.

 

[sayareakd]

wrong post ......................

 

[debasree]

f-35 is not fully opperational yet and recently lockhid face lot of hitch at the time of testing so why spent lot of sum on a bird which is not proven operationaly.

 

[weg]

So, Why can't India have 80 planes for $11 Billion? And customization - the Israeli's are having it, and cheaper too!

As for advanced Radar, Any AESA will be good since the AMCA will not have any AESA till 2025 in all probabilities ...

Israel isn't paying for the F-35, the US gives them a grant to pay for it and then handed over 160% offset work for Israeli companies.

This is at the expense of other countries buying the F-35. Israel also stole the blueprints for the F-35.

Israel will probably spend another 100million putting electronics in the aircraft, becuase the US export all military gear in a crippled state, even to their allies like the UK and Israel.

 

[p2prada]

Desperate attempt and US has at least come to the conclusion that second rung stuff isn't required here. C-17s and C-130Js, sure they are top of the line stuff. F-16s and F-18s aren't, no matter how well upgraded they are.

Now that they have realized their mistake, they are trying to derail the MRCA deal as warned by our ACM. But it would be prudent for IAF to continue with Rafale and EF and seal the deal quickly.

Perhaps the F-35 can be considered for the SFC. The only problem with aircraft for the SFC is the aircraft will only be used to carry and deliver nuclear bombs. So, that would be a strict No for the US Congress. Only France and Russia can provide for SFC.

ToT: The development delays, price and even if F-35 turns out to be a lemon none of them even compare to the problems associated with ToT. We are a big country and require aircraft to perform well in deserts, mountains, plains and oceans. There is no way we can do any of that if we are not able to calibrate the radar and avionics for each of these environment in the field. There is no point in fielding an awesome state of the art radar if we are not allowed to use it.

The F-35 would give us unmatched capabilities as compared to Rafale or EF-2000 even if the F-35 ends up being a bit more pricey. If ToT is taken care of I don't see any reason for IAF to reject the F-35. But please don't club the F-35 with the MRCA. It's not happening.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

The answer is Big NO!

 

[Immanuel]

well a big no would be for the IAF and MOD to decide, US making a genuine f-35 offer with lots of goodies in the bag will certainly have an impact, they have leverage even in the current competition with critical avionics and weapons supplies to both EF and Rafale programs, they can bitch about source codes, tot approval and delay the entire procurement process of EF and Rafale as well. No use bitching about their desire to do this, it shouldn't come as a surprice, we knew they would do something about not making the cut at this stage, its really not over till the fat lady sing, problem is even the fat lady wears made in US panties and she wont step on stage till she knows her ass is fully covered.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

well a big no would be for the IAF and MOD to decide, US making a genuine f-35 offer with lots of goodies in the bag will certainly have an impact, they have leverage even in the current competition with critical avionics and weapons supplies to both EF and Rafale programs, they can bitch about source codes, tot approval and delay the entire procurement process of EF and Rafale as well. No use bitching about their desire to do this, it shouldn't come as a surprice, we knew they would do something about not making the cut at this stage, its really not over till the fat lady sing, problem is even the fat lady wears made in US panties and she wont step on stage till she knows her ass is fully covered.

Isn't mod already declared no other 5gen fighter on the list as FGFA on progress..

F-35 is not in good position right now, It is no doubt one of the best fighters in the world but production rate, Partnership makes it down..

In Future India may look into JSF future upgrades for AMCA upgrades..

 

[weg]

The F-35 would give us unmatched capabilities as compared to Rafale or EF-2000 even

The F-35 is useless without the electronics and India will not get that. Its a network aircraft.

 

[Adux]

Gentlemen,

MMRCA process cannot and will not be scuttled, as is also clearly mentioned in the first article. AMCA and PAKFA will not put hostage to F-35. Also on Jan 2011, India had already rejected F-35. Just because the company wants to sell, doesnt mean India will buy. Americans have the habit of over-estimating themselves when it comes Indian Politics

India Rejects US Offer of Joint Strike Fighter F-35 Lightning-II, India has no plans as of now to either join the US-led joint strike fighter (JSF) programme or buy the F-35 `Lightning-II' fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) when it finally becomes operational.

"We cannot have two types of FGFA. We have already launched preliminary work for our FGFA after inking the $295 million preliminary design contract (PDC) with Russia last month," said a top defence ministry official on Friday.

India Rejects US Offer of Joint Strike Fighter F-35 Lightning-II | Views to News, about USA, Pakistan, India, World and Technology

 

[p2prada]

The F-35 is useless without the electronics and India will not get that. Its a network aircraft.

This is pretty much the biggest issue. Rest assured it is not going to happen. Mod will never stop the current deal from deviating after having done it once already. LM should have offered F-35 since the beginning. There is the question of deliveries as well. Rafale will come in 36 months.. F-35 won't.

 

[ace009]

do you know what is the cost to maintain and fuel f-15/22 for every 72 hour of flight? The F-22, has recently required more than 30 hours of maintenance for every hour in the skies, pushing its hourly cost of flying to more than $44,000. may be F-35 will cost little less. so calculate 44,000 x 72 and see where your $3 million stands.

I don't see the cost for weapon packages in your equation. you didn't said anything about all the agreements, strings and constraints that will come with F-35.

Now I know you have NO idea of what you are talking about. LOL
The F-22 is a unique case of a fighter. It requires excessive maintenance BECAUSE it has old technology RAM coatings. The F-35 is being developed with a different configuration, hence the development cost and time is higher, so that in the future, the maintenance cost and time required will be lower.
As for number of maintenance crew - check out the internet (or just someone with a bit more knowledge) and they will tell you a 4.5 gen A/C needs 6-8 crew to maintain. I know that the F-22 needs a crew of 12 to maintain. I extrapolated that a 5th gen A/C like the F-35 will require a crew of 9. I maybe wrong, but not as much as your "Lexus" or your Grandmother's clock. Did you buy them from the same place?
I did not put the weapons package in there because NONE of the fighters India is buying (or building) is priced with a weapons package included. Maybe you know otherwise, but the MMRCA or the FGFA are NOT coming with a weapons package included.
Maybe your Lexus came with a lifetime supply of Kerosene, but such is not the custom for fighter plane deals.

As for constrains, agreements etc, EVERY purchase come with them. MoD should be smart enough to deal with it to the best of India's favor.

As for the rest of posters, please let me clarify, as I have mentioned before, I started with by saying F-35 WILL NEVER replace the MMRCA. However, if it is offered again to India, MoD should accept it in place of the AMCA project.

 

[p2prada]

Ace. I don't see why we have to sacrifice AMCA for F-35. DRDO's projects can happen side by side IAF's

 

[utubekhiladi]

As for number of maintenance crew - check out the internet (or just someone with a bit more knowledge) and they will tell you a 4.5 gen A/C needs 6-8 crew to maintain. I know that the F-22 needs a crew of 12 to maintain. I extrapolated that a 5th gen A/C like the F-35 will require a crew of 9

Instead of shooting in the dark, can you back up your claim with a citation or a reference?

I did not put the weapons package in there because NONE of the fighters India is buying (or building) is priced with a weapons package included.

lol. f-35 will be no good without a weapon package.. so you need to consider the cost of weapon package too when negotiating the price of an aircraft. i am quite confident that IAF said 11 billion dollars deal which included weapon package. if not, it will be added later. so that will make this deal worth than 11 billion even for non 5th gen fighter.

As for constrains, agreements etc, EVERY purchase come with them. MoD should be smart enough to deal with it to the best of India's favor.

the same agreements and constraints is one of the reason why american fighters were kicked out of the mmrca competition in the first place. IAF needs complete combat operational freedom which american fighters can never provide.

your 3million per aircraft is a complete joke.
Military Aircraft Maintenance Costs (by Jeremy Zawodny)
The last fully operational flying day of the Tomcat

 

[ace009]

Ace. I don't see why we have to sacrifice AMCA for F-35. DRDO's projects can happen side by side IAF's

if MoD can pay for both, then so much the better. It would be like the US, where multiple projects are funded and the best one is continued. However, I am not sure India can afford too many parallel projects going on. especially since the AMCA and the F-35 will be of the same class and pretty much do the same things.