Lockheed May Pitch F-35; GoI Says No Plans to Buy F-35

[p2prada]

Americans will still find their market share in India.

They have already done that with sales of C-17, C-130 for the IAF and P-8 for the Navy. Now the E-2D is left along with Apache.

If you want the F-35, buy it for what its designed for, a bomb truck.

As a quick replacement for Mig-27 and Jaguar, it would be viable. But I am not sure India can buy so many platforms at once in the same time period. MRCA aircraft, FGFA, F-35 in the 2015 period may end up being a bit too much for our industry to cope with.

 

[plugwater]

Israeli and American f 35 wont be using meteor instead they will have unjammeable dual seeker magic-wond
built to hunt ballistic missiles, pak-fa and j-20

Magic wand system is to fill the gap between Iron Dome and Arrow for medium range rockets. You cant use it in F-35 or to hunt Pak-fa or any aircrafts.

 

[p2prada]

Not upto the job? haha, with its AESA it will detect both EF and Rafale before they ever know the f-35 is the area, with its long range Aim-120D or even the Meteor to be integrated on it, it will take a first shot and kill the Ef or Rafale without being seen. the F-35 with its avionics, sensors and stealth will defeat both Ef and Rafale simultaneously. Neither has a chance. F-35 is a better A2A and a better bomb truck than a EF or Rafale could ever hope to be. Furthermore, with its new gen jammer being developed, it will jam the electronic crap out of both Ef and Rafale. Also if a Rafale or Ef ever has to face a f-35 in real life, the US will block gps signals and behold EF and Rafale become half as useful as they already are.

Blah, Blah. AESA isn't the only sensor on the Rafale and EF. They will also be equipped with IRST. Detection is a given in those conditions.

First kill is a joke, first look is best used in running away like how an AWACS does. The MKI had first shot capability against Rafale even with R-77 limitations and with a huge RCS to boot during Garuda 2010. But the Rafale and M-2000 used tactics that beat the MKIs first kill capabilities.

F-35 could be the best bomber out there, but is this something that is necessary for us? Our bombing needs are tactical in nature, our interests are served well enough with the 3 2000lb bombs that both aircraft carry. Stealth may not be very important if we had the same kind of air superiority we had in Kargil. Even Jaguars fit the bill.

The Super Hornet is a better bomb truck than Rafale or EF. But still it wasn't shortlisted. The F-35 only augments the SH's capabilities. There is even a question of F-35 even being shortlisted because we have a very strict criteria for dog fights. In 3 to 4 years we will see the Rafale and EF playing with the F-35 as well, we will see then where the F-35 stands.

Rafale and EF use GPS only until Galileo comes online. With India focusing on Satellite Navigation on FGFA, we may do the same for MRCA as well. Then we have our own satellites including Russian.

F-35 is better in A2A only because it is has the AESA. And that only gives first look capability, the first kill isn't guaranteed, even for F-22. It would be funny if a non BVR equipped Flanker dodges all the AMRAAMs thrown at it only for the F-35 to get killed by cannons because it wasn't fast enough to run away. Let's not forget the MKI can do 15 minutes of AB time at full fuel.

 

[pack leader]

Magic wand has an AA derivative developed by Rafael
it will be the main bvr missile in the future of the Israeli air force

 

[plugwater]

Magic wand has an AA derivative developed by Rafael
it will be the main bvr missile in the future of the Israeli air force

Source please!! I think you are wrong.

 

[pack leader]

i don't have a source in English only in Hebrew
sorry

 

[plugwater]

i don't have a source in English only in Hebrew
sorry

Ok no prob, Post the link.

 

[ace009]

i don't have a source in English only in Hebrew
sorry

You can translate it using some online tool ...

 

[Immanuel]

Blah, Blah. AESA isn't the only sensor on the Rafale and EF. They will also be equipped with IRST. Detection is a given in those conditions.

First kill is a joke, first look is best used in running away like how an AWACS does. The MKI had first shot capability against Rafale even with R-77 limitations and with a huge RCS to boot during Garuda 2010. But the Rafale and M-2000 used tactics that beat the MKIs first kill capabilities.

F-35 could be the best bomber out there, but is this something that is necessary for us? Our bombing needs are tactical in nature, our interests are served well enough with the 3 2000lb bombs that both aircraft carry. Stealth may not be very important if we had the same kind of air superiority we had in Kargil. Even Jaguars fit the bill.

The Super Hornet is a better bomb truck than Rafale or EF. But still it wasn't shortlisted. The F-35 only augments the SH's capabilities. There is even a question of F-35 even being shortlisted because we have a very strict criteria for dog fights. In 3 to 4 years we will see the Rafale and EF playing with the F-35 as well, we will see then where the F-35 stands.

Rafale and EF use GPS only until Galileo comes online. With India focusing on Satellite Navigation on FGFA, we may do the same for MRCA as well. Then we have our own satellites including Russian.

F-35 is better in A2A only because it is has the AESA. And that only gives first look capability, the first kill isn't guaranteed, even for F-22. It would be funny if a non BVR equipped Flanker dodges all the AMRAAMs thrown at it only for the F-35 to get killed by cannons because it wasn't fast enough to run away. Let's not forget the MKI can do 15 minutes of AB time at full fuel.

hahah first kills a joke? dont know what kind of stuff your smoking, but you should pass it around... no pilot in the modern day battel field wants to get close, they are comfy firing from bvr and dissappear if they can. f-22 does that, f-35 will do the same. GPS isn't only one thing, EF and Rafale both have senstive critical US made parts i am sure Rafale and EFs are full of kill switches. for a flanker to dodge one aim-120 itself would be bone crunching, firstly because the aim-120D has a kill probability of over 90% and ranges of over 100NM, a twin missile shot will ensure kill.

SH wasn't shortlisted due to current engine performance which hampered its performance from high alt. and its acceleration wasn't on par. the mod and iaf have actually messed up on this part because they allowed both ef and rafale without paying attention to gripen ng or sh. EF and rafale are still under developement, SH should have been allowed because new engines, new maws, new stealth pods, new irst etc are on offer. IAF has actually messed this up pretty bad, both aircraft are expensive to operate throughout their lifetimes. Both are just as dependent on US tot clearance and both are just as vulnerable to US sanctions, US due to large amounts of sensitive content can still screw us over during war time, even more so because we bought the ef and rafale. eitherway, we have to deal with unkil, it would have been better to deal with them buying their aircraft, then the chances of them screwing us over is much lower.

yes rafale and ef have irst, but the f-35 has a better irst, it will spot the ef and rafale first even with its radar off, both are twin engine, their 1st gen irst is no where near the f-35's irst which combined with EO sensor has already demonstrated missile detection at over 800 miles away. f-35 is better in A2A due to much better stealth, much better avionics, much better 360 degree coverage, longer range detection with aesa, better irst, better electro optical systems, better helmet, put on a python-5 and it'll have a better short range missile, better cockpit, better situational awareness, better survivability and with new engines and just as good aerial performance.

f-22 has had hundreds of simulated kills, simulated missile launches are monitored as the missile's path behaves exactly as it would in real life, offcourse in simulations too the missile misses its target and offcourse that happens when the pilot gets out of its way. yes MKI can do 15 mins of AB time at full fuel but f-35 wont have to do that, fire its weapon from long range and still remain undetected. the mki has the rcs of an elephant, it will be spotted at over 250km away by the f-35. level of pilot skill being equal f-35 due to its better package will have a 3 to 4 fold advantage over a flanker. i am ardent MKI lover but given the latest in weapons like aim-120c-7/D, aesa, better avionics, a simple block 60 f-16 is very much capable of taking on the MKI.

 

[weg]

EF and Rafale both have senstive critical US made parts i am sure Rafale and EFs are full of kill switches.

Nope. The US parts in the EF are not critical. Kill switches.. you made that up.

 

[death.by.chocolate]

Nope. The US parts in the EF are not critical.

Can you prove that?

 

[ace009]

Nope. The US parts in the EF are not critical. Kill switches.. you made that up.

What do you say to this?

US gov may forbid BAE Eurofighter sale to Saudis "¢ The Register

 

[ace009]

This is an interesting analysis from the point of view of long-term implications of combat aircraft manufacturing ...

Weapon and Technology: India`s effect on world fighter market

"An Indian-European congruent engineering capability could shape the future of exports from India to the second and third world combat aircraft markets. Here European engineering excellence combined with Indian manufacturing capabilities and IT excellence could create a global gamechanger. Not exactly Tata Nanos for the aerospace market but you get the point.

The congruence could craft the next generation of manned European combat aircraft as well. Such an aircraft could be designed with the other innovations in mind with significant impact, namely 5th generation aircraft and remotely piloted aircraft (RPAs)."

 

[Immanuel]

Nope. The US parts in the EF are not critical. Kill switches.. you made that up.

no confirmation of kill switches but when EF and Rafale's sensitive parts come from US chances are they have bugs or even kill switches.

a sample list of US made parts on EF

Hexcel Composites: Carbon Fibre: Carbon fibers, structural adhesives, honeycombs, prepregs, sandwich panels and reinforcement fabrics
Excalibur Systems, Inc: Printed Circuit Boards: EXC-3900 interface board for avionics test and simulation applications
HiRel Connectors, Inc: Electrical & Electronic Connectors: Connectors, removal crimp and hermetic solder contacts
PEI-Genesis: Electrical & Electronic Connectors: JN1003 multi-pin circular connectors
Goodrich Interiors: Aircraft Exterior Lighting Systems: Dual colour strobe lights, landing/taxi lights, LED navigation lights, power supplies & cables, Aircraft Exterior Lighting Systems: Anti-collision lights,Cabin Signage & Displays: Indicator & exit signs
Parker Aerospace - Stratoflex Products Div: Disconnects: Hydraulic ground service quick disconnects
Device Technologies Inc. Plastic Grommets: Spring-Fast wire protection composite grommet edging
Goodrich Sensors & Integrated Systems: Sensors/Transducers: Pitot probe; ice detectors; air data total air temperature sensors
API Delevan Inc.:Inductors: Surface mount inductors
Eaton Aerospace, Fluid Conveyance Division: Fluid Conveyance Systems: Pumps, valves, level sensors, pressure switches, refuel/defuel manifolds, and couplings
PTI Technologies Inc: Hydraulic Filters: Filtration systems
General Dynamics: Command, Control & Intelligence Systems: Armament control system; Weapons Countermeasures: Decoy dispenser I/F unit
Raytheon Company Missile Systems: Missiles: AMRAAM missiles; Bombs: Paveway IV weapon system
Ultra Electronics Precision Air Systems: Ordnance Handling Equipment: HiPPAG airborne compressor for missile infared seeker cooling & munitions ejection
Herley Industries Inc: Microwave Components: Integrated microwave assembly for CAPTOR radar

the list goes on and on

Rafale too has US made parts including radar components as well as targeting systems.

 

[sandeepdg]

Guys, please stop comparing a 5th generation weapon platform with 4th generation one ! Everybody knows that the F-35 is one hell of an aircraft, but we are not buying it ! This was never a contest for selecting a stealth fighter-bomber, so we were never in the market for the F-35. And even if India makes a request for it, we won't get a single plane before 2020, at least. By then we will have the FGFA, if not the AMCA at least, so anyhow we get a 5th generation fighter at a cheaper rate than the JSF.

 

[LETHALFORCE]

Lockheed Martin to re-enter $11 bn Indian deal with F-35 stealth fighter - Economic Times

Lockheed Martin to re-enter $11 bn Indian deal with F-35 stealth fighter

PARIS: India's status as a cherry in the global defence and aerospace segment has been underlined again as Lockheed Martin, one of the global defence majors who tried in vain for the medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) deal, has been quoted as being hopeful of re-entering the race for the $11-billion deal.

The US defence major's continued hope for the Indian defence deal is seen by experts here as reflective of the intensity of global competition to catch a piece of the Indian defence pie, but it is learnt that Lockheed's chances of a re-entry into the race is only speculative at the moment.

Lockheed vice-president for corporate strategy and business development, Patrick Dewar, was quoted as saying that the company's chances of offering the F-35 stealth fighter for the MMRCA deal had improved when the US senate armed services committee asked the defence department to study the feasibility of a joint strike fighter sale to India.

Lockheed officials at the Paris Air Show here said the statement should be considered of a "draft" nature. "This is a governmental decision, on what aircraft to offer to countries. He (Dewar) was referring to a draft language in a senate bill", Lockheed director of F-35 communication, Michael J Rein told ET. Rein said the company was not in discussion with the Indian government on the matter.

A reversal of the combat aircraft selection process is considered unlikely as analysts are already saying that such a step would be considered to be succumbing to US pressure, overlooking technical merits of the competing aircraft.

Lockheed, which has a fleet of proven combat aircraft, including the F-16, lost out to Eurofighter Typhoon and Dassault's Rafale in the MMRCA race. Typhoon and Rafale are both on display at the air show here, and the European companies are hoping to hear from India the final word on the winner in about a month.

Defence and aerospace officials here say that the defeat in the combat aircraft race in India need not be a complete setback for the US defence sector, considering that the arming of India promises attractive downstream business opportunities, including technology solutions for India's defence sector in the coming years.

While India has decided on one of the European aircraft - Typhoon or Rafale - to lead its airstrike power in the immediate future, global aerospace majors are also tapping opportunities in the Chinese market.

Boeing on Tuesday announced the opening of an innovation centre in Shaanxi Province in China, in association with Aviation Industry Corporation of China. The AVIC-Boeing venture is expected to enhance Boeing's production system by increasing AVIC's efficiency and capacity to supply high-quality parts for Boeing aircraft.

 

[Immanuel]

well the PAKFA is far from being productionised, already the price of the latest super-30mki on order has reached $100 million per unit, so lets not get too hasty and think that we'll get the PAKFA for a price less than the f-35. the f-35 was sold to the israeli's at $2.75 billion for 20 aircraft. cost was put at about $96 million per aircraft including the engine. In addition, the deal includes simulators, spare parts and maintenance -- making the total value $2.75 billion.

Israel, US sign $2.75 bn F-35 fighter deal - Reuters -

Rafale's deal in brazil is worth $10.2 billion, including $6.2 billion for the 36 fighters themselves i.e $172 million per piece - down from a previous figure of $8.2 billion - and $4 billion for maintenance over the next three decades, the daily said. This price is quoted even after the French are offering good tot.

France slims jets price in Brazil bid

so lets not get too excited about saying that f-35 is expensive, its a 5th gen aircraft being sold at a better price than even the super-30. India should dump the ef and rafale, buy the f-35 under fms with good amount of tot, place a large enough order and we might even get the aircraft for less than $85 million per unit. I am not sure what kind of service was included in the f-35 issy deal but i am sure the price for life time service will still be less than $283 million per unit the French are charging for Rafale in brazil.

 

[ace009]

Boeing on Tuesday announced the opening of an innovation centre in Shaanxi Province in China, in association with Aviation Industry Corporation of China. The AVIC-Boeing venture is expected to enhance Boeing's production system by increasing AVIC's efficiency and capacity to supply high-quality parts for Boeing aircraft.

I guess Boeing does not care about stolen technology ...

 

[thakur_ritesh]

this thread has outlived its utility with MoD/IAF saying a no. proceed to mmrca and f-35 threads. thread locked.