Lockheed Martin Unveils First New F-16 For Pakistan

qsaark

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Zoom,

I will suggest you to read my previous posts. You will find me a person who lives in reality irrespective of how bitter it tastes. The way you are 'interrogating' is all right for those Pakistanis (or members) who are drunk with the so-called 'patriotism' and talk irrational no matter what. I am on the other hand is little different.

I would love to reply to all your questions but not to your allegations and blames of twisting the facts and stuff like that, because I myself and my posts are far above from this kind of mediocreness.

Talk to me as QSAARK, a member of this forum, not as a Pakistani enemy becasue that is how I talk to others, considering them the honorable members of this forum not Indians.
 

AkhandBharat

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Zoom,

I will suggest you to read my previous posts. You will find me a person who lives in reality irrespective of how bitter it tastes. The way you are 'interrogating' is all right for those Pakistanis (or members) who are drunk with the so-called 'patriotism' and talk irrational no matter what. I am on the other hand is little different.

I would love to reply to all your questions but not to your allegations and blames of twisting the facts and stuff like that, because I myself and my posts are far above from this kind of mediocreness.

Talk to me as QSAARK, a member of this forum, not as a Pakistani enemy becasue that is how I talk to others, considering them the honorable members of this forum not Indians.

Qsaark, your reality is your perception of the media reports in Pakistan, which may not be the reality at all.

For e.g. in your earlier post, you stated that the PAF's perception of the border was different from PA's perception of the border which is the reason for PAF not supporting their troops across the border. Do you really expect anyone to believe this? Armies routinely exchange intelligence and this is really just a pathetic of an excuse to mask the fact that Pakistan wanted a limited war, because it wasn't ready for the full scale version, and hence tried an incursion, rather than a full scale invasion compared to '65.

PAF couldn't provide air support because pakistan's stand at all times was that the kargil intruders were terrorist (freedom fighters according to pakistan) and not their regular army. And since, they are only providing 'moral' support to the terrorists (freedom fighters), they couldn't provide them air support unlike India. This was the only reason that also kept India from crossing across the border into PoK.

It would have been really great for India if PAF had provided air support. We could then cross the border and the LAC would have changed too.
 
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Has Indian govt made any statements that F-16 is out of the MRCA competition? Any reason why this has not be made? I guess it ok with the government or Lockheed Martin may have some future deals they are working on? F-16 should be the first one scratched of the MRCA list after we test it and learn everything about it.
 

refresh

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Sir,

For all their talk abt making the F-16 far more advanced for the MMRCA tender ,the F-16 is possibly the plane with the lease chance of making it in.It's more likely the planes are only there till the trials.
Perhaps a small number may be bought for 'aggressor training',if you ask me.
 

AkhandBharat

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The government will not make that statement immediately for two reasons.

1) F-16IN has the APG-80 radar, which the IAF is very interested in. F-16IN or F-18 S/H will not be out until Dassault proves its Thales RBE2 AA radar or Mikoyan proves its Phazotron Zhuk-AE radar in their respective evaluations.

2) Indian government will not just reject F-16IN on the grounds that PAF is getting their own version of F-16. Only after the evaluations will the final decision be taken.
 

K Factor

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Perhaps a small number may be bought for 'aggressor training',if you ask me.
India does not induct adversary aircraft for aggressor training/DACT like the USAF does.
 

StealthSniper

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Getting the F-16 will be risky for the IAF. The reason why is because China and Pakistan have the training and knowhow of these aircraft and maybe the Chinese have already got detailed specifications, and maybe will reverse engineer the aircraft in the near future. India doesn't need to get an aircraft that it's potential enemies have good knowledge on.

One thing I like about the Rafale is that nobody except the French have the aircraft and to me this could be an advantage against the enemy in the future. Plus again I am not a fan of single engine planes.
 
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The Chinese J-10,J-17,programs are from the Israeli Lavi program which was a program started to make a better F-16 of sorts, the program was abandoned by Israel and Bought by the Chinese. They may have knowledge of F-16 and Pak HAS f-16, but we are familiar with F-16 's from Israel and Singapore but even then F-16 does not offer anything special for it to win the MRCA or offer any TOT , it is a potent plane but the production line is being slowly phased out by Lockeed Martin who will close production in Texas plant after the pakistani delivery is complete. One simple questions if USA has sanctions on India for going to war with Pakistan what will India do for parts??
 

AkhandBharat

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They will pick up usable parts from the destroyed F-16s across the border. :sarcastic:
 

dineshchaturvedi

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The Chinese J-10,J-17,programs are from the Israeli Lavi program which was a program started to make a better F-16 of sorts, the program was abandoned by Israel and Bought by the Chinese. They may have knowledge of F-16 and Pak HAS f-16, but we are familiar with F-16 's from Israel and Singapore but even then F-16 does not offer anything special for it to win the MRCA or offer any TOT , it is a potent plane but the production line is being slowly phased out by Lockeed Martin who will close production in Texas plant after the pakistani delivery is complete. One simple questions if USA has sanctions on India for going to war with Pakistan what will India do for parts??
We should not buy anything that can impact us at the time of war. Even if we are buying stuff from US for whatever reason, we should definitely keep a good amount of stock of spares and look for alternate options.
 
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The issue of parts and sanctions are one issue, we could possibly test again in the future and that will definetly bring sanctions, this should be kept in mind when picking the MRCA plane, it will also be a political decision as well in chossing the winner. But speaking only about the planes which country is offering the best plane,price and conditions along with transfer of technology that can benefit us in our indigenous program as well as sorting out production issues if we decide to increase the order.
 

ZOOM

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zoom,
qsaark is right in a way. PAF, of all the wings of pak armed forces, is the most pragmatic and realist driven force and to my mind are the best too. in all previous wars with india, it has always been the PA which has been the culprit.
have posted a link in my previous post. it is by a PAF man. it is worhty read.
I never said that, qsaark was wrong in any way, rather I was trying to address some of the post which were highly objectionable and worthy of questioning. And yes PAF was so pragmatic and realist driven force then it may never depend upon propoganda of being invicible in truncing IAF during 1965 and 1971 air war. :dfi-1:
 

ZOOM

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Zoom,

I will suggest you to read my previous posts. You will find me a person who lives in reality irrespective of how bitter it tastes. The way you are 'interrogating' is all right for those Pakistanis (or members) who are drunk with the so-called 'patriotism' and talk irrational no matter what. I am on the other hand is little different.

I would love to reply to all your questions but not to your allegations and blames of twisting the facts and stuff like that, because I myself and my posts are far above from this kind of mediocreness.

Talk to me as QSAARK, a member of this forum, not as a Pakistani enemy becasue that is how I talk to others, considering them the honorable members of this forum not Indians.
I have nothing to do with your rationality and being highly honest above all else on this forum. You need to know that, this is an Open forum where anyone can ask any question depending upon objectionability of content which was there in your previous post. I did find some of your post highly sensible and accordingly appreciated the same but that doesn't give all other post of your's an exception from asking various obvious questioning. And yes, I wasn't intrrogeting in any way and just limit myself to asking some basic question.
 

ppgj

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And yes PAF was so pragmatic and realist driven force then it may never depend upon propoganda of being invicible in truncing IAF during 1965 and 1971 air war. :dfi-1:
pragmatic and realist, i meant a force which takes into account its strength, logistics etc..before taking on the enemy.
in 60s and early 70s they were better equipped(courtesy US) and had an advantage vis-a-vis india.
as for propaganda it is just national pride and one should not read too much into it.
 

ahmedsid

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You did count incoming stength, that is the reason why you said upgrade on MKI by 2012 and addition of Rafale and Mig-35 in your previous post. Just because we have MKI, it doesn't mean that we will scramble our MKI to counter F-16s. We already have all other jets like BVR and EW equipped Mig-21 Bison, Mig-29 and Mirage-2000 to take care of F-16 Block 52. I was bringing this current inventory into question against newest addition of F-16 Block 52 even in small number. It is highly unlikely that we will send MKI over Pakistani airspace rather we would send all other BVR equipped jets, since MKI is equipped for truly long range strikes regardless of its cuttting edge.
Again, I brought in our future strength, solely based on the fact that the PAF will be only able to Induct the 52s and MLU at that time.

The MKI will be sent over to Pak I feel, though you or me are in no position to make that call. We are just here posting what we feel, nothing authentic about it. But if you look at it, even in the latest Border incursions into Pak, the Su30s were there, if some media reports are to be believed. In my Opinion the Mirages will carry the Strike Package, the Mig 29s will provide cover, along with the Su30s, which too can carry a strike Package. The Mig 21 Bison is short legged and will be used for PAD, I feel, though it can take in other roles too.

Your assumption that the MKI wont be sent into pak skies cannot be taken seriously, Because the MKI is not just for Long range operations or delivering Strike Packages over long ranges. It can very much operate in Multi Role Missions and Air Superiority Also.

Lastly, how would the avionics package of the Block 52s, compare against our Mig29s and Mirages, which havent gone into Upgrade as of now. I want to know the current status. I feel the Blk52 package is superior to our Mirages and Migs as of now, without upgrades, correct me please.

About the Bisons taking on the F16 Blk52, well the F16blk52 is any day better that the Migs, but what brings in both of these planes in the same league is the BVR and EW capabilities. The Bisons are a perfect spoil for the Current F16s being fielded by the PAF, but in the future it wont be an even match, even if you bring in COPE india experience. We must not forget that PAF has extensive knowledge about the F16 and their training is no dampener, They are really a worthy opponent, no matter what their current status is.
 

ZOOM

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pragmatic and realist, i meant a force which takes into account its strength, logistics etc..before taking on the enemy.
in 60s and early 70s they were better equipped(courtesy US) and had an advantage vis-a-vis india.
as for propaganda it is just national pride and one should not read too much into it.
So are you talking about stength and logistics, if that was really the case then we may never have seen Mig-29 locking two F-16 because of their aggressor move.
 

ppgj

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So are you talking about stength and logistics, if that was really the case then we may never have seen Mig-29 locking two F-16 because of their aggressor move.
zoom sir,
pak f-16s were not aggressive. they could not afford too. they were just defending their air space and that is what is going to be for along time to come 'cos they don't match up anymore with IAF. whether PAF agrees with PA's designs or not, they still have to do their job.
as for MIG-29s locking on to F-16s only means indian fighters are getting better by the day and not only pakistan, even china will have to think twice before they attack india.
 

ppgj

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Why does Pakistan need F-16s to fight Taliban?

Rajat Pandit, TNN, 17 January 2010, 12:17am IST

Pranab Mukherjee is not given to sudden public outbursts on foreign policy matters. But just over five years ago, he angrily tore apart the American argument that the weapons it was supplying to Pakistan were meant to fight the al-Qaida and Taliban. "Nobody uses F-16 fighter planes and other weapons meant for big wars to fight terrorists," Mukherjee, then defence minister, thundered. Uncharacteristic though the outburst was, it conveyed India's grave concerns on the matter.

Little, however, has changed since then. Pakistan continues to get sophisticated weapon systems, missiles, sensors and related equipment from the US, the majority of which are clearly meant more for waging conventional wars rather than combating militants.

In the name of the 'global war on terror' since 9/11, Indian experts say, Washington has funnelled well over $10 billion in military aid and assistance to Islamabad to bolster Pakistan's counter-terrorism capabilities in the volatile border regions with Afghanistan.

But, as independent international assessments have shown, not even one-third of this whopping assistance has been spent on the intended purpose of fighting the Taliban, which a section of Pakistan's ISI-military establishment still covertly supports.

A major chunk has been diverted to expand Pakistan's nuclear and conventional military capabilities against India. "An F-16, for instance, can of course be used to let loose a missile on a cave or a militant stronghold but it's mainly meant to wage war against a state, not stateless actors," says a top Indian security establishment official.

The US may have so far refrained from handing over the Predator drones, controlled by satellites and armed with Hellfire missiles, which are being used by American forces in the Af-Pak region with telling effect. But it has opened the floodgates for a lot of other military hardware and software. These range from refurbished P-3C maritime patrol aircraft and Cobra helicopter gunships to thousands of missiles like Harpoons, TOW-2As and AIM-9M Sidewinders.

The F-16 fighter programme, of course, is the showpiece of the American security assistance package to Pakistan. Under it, Pakistan is getting 18 spanking new advanced F-16 C/D Block 52 jets and mid-life upgrades for the 32 of the original 40 jets acquired by Pakistan Air Force in the mid-1980s, with advanced targeting, precision-guided munitions (PGMs), sensor and radar systems.

That's not all. The USAF has also transferred 14 F-16s, under its 'excess defence article' policy, to Pakistan since 2005. The entire F-16 programme also includes a deadly munitions package with AMRAAM (advanced medium-range air-to-air missiles), 2,000-pounder bombs and JDAMs (joint direct attack munitions), which are guidance kits to convert gravity bombs into all-weather 'smart' bombs. "AMRAAMs are beyond-visual range missiles to take out enemy fighters in air combat. Does al-Qaida have fighter jets? They are obviously directed against India," said a senior IAF officer.

For that matter, al-Qaida or Taliban also do not have warships. But the Harpoons, which arm the P-3C aircraft, are potent all-weather, sea-skimming anti-ship missiles. Pakistan, in fact, has even modified the Harpoons, in contravention of US Arms Control Export Act, to expand its capability to strike land targets.

Says a senior defence official, "The US knows very well that F-16s, P-3Cs or the other deadly toys it's giving to Pakistan are not counter-terrorism weapons. But it chooses to look the other way, much like it did when A Q Khan was helping build Pakistan's nuclear arsenal and proliferating to other countries like North Korea."

All this does evoke concern in India. Apart from the substantial upgrade of their combat and precision-targeting capabilities, Pakistani F-16s have been modified to deliver nuclear weapons. Pranab Mukherjee, in fact, told Parliament, "F-16s are nuclear capable...The range of F-16s would cover a number of civilian and military facilities in northern India."

Apart from the US help to enhance its conventional military capabilities, Pakistan has also used the last decade to work towards bolstering the number of its nuclear warheads as well as delivery systems. It has also stepped up efforts to supplement its ongoing enriched uranium-based nuke programme with a weapons-grade plutonium one.

Some US nuclear experts, in fact, estimate Pakistan's nuclear arsenal has now grown to around 70-90 warheads, with India slipping behind at 60-80. The fear is that if not the militants, hardliners within the Pakistan army may get access to enriched uranium, nuclear components or even actual warheads in the middle of the ongoing turmoil in the country.

Despite protestations to the contrary, the US is reportedly keeping a hawk-eye on Pakistan's nuclear arsenal, with specially trained personnel on stand-by to swiftly intervene if a crisis erupts. At least that's what the Indian defence officials hope. After all, a 'dirty' bomb in the wrong hands can lead to all hell breaking loose.
Why does Pakistan need F-16s to fight Taliban? - Special Report - Sunday TOI - Home - The Times of India
 
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pragmatic and realist, i meant a force which takes into account its strength, logistics etc..before taking on the enemy.
in 60s and early 70s they were better equipped(courtesy US) and had an advantage vis-a-vis india.
as for propaganda it is just national pride and one should not read too much into it.
PAF sabers were introduced in 1950s and u were flying MIG 29 MIG 17 and GNATs..There was not too much techno supperiority.
 

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